Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Melee Weapons, problems.
This thread is to help to better inform Logix/Ace on the state of Melee weapons. Anything you may want to add on the subject of Melee weapons, please do so here.
1) Blade Vibro Units vs. Advanced Blade Vibro Units - ABVUs have slightly higher damage, but much lower speed.
raider7734 wrote:Hey.
There is not a **edit** thing wrong with the powerhammer, cleaver, or 2h curved sword. All are useful in different circumstances. They don't need balancing, tweaking, or adjusting.
The powerhammer, in particular, is perfect.
With appropriate slicing and use of powerups, you can get it as fast as 3.1 seconds, or over 700 max damage. Take your pick.
Similarly, you can get a cleaver down to 2.0 seconds, or over 330 max damage. Cleavers are great all-around weapons with nice, consistant damage. By the way, they are medium AP, not light.
I'm not going to sing the praises of the 2h curved sword, everyone likes it already. It has the best accuracy of all.
Please keep in mind that anyone with a clue will get their stuff sliced, and will use powerups.
Those two factors allow tons of room for altering speed vs. damage characteristics, so enough with the calls for changes - there is nothing broken here, and many of us like them just as they are.
As for the heavy axe, two handed axe, and vibro axe - I haven't used any of those for a long time, so I have no comment on them.
Master brawler - Master swordsman - TK 4004 - Fencer 4400
Hmmm, maybe you misunderstood what I was getting at with my comments.
The 2HCS is by far the best Melee weapon...rightfully so, as the Swordsmen is the master of damage. The problem isn't with the 2HCS, it's the fact that the weapons which are above it SUCK. No one uses Vibro Axes or Two Handed Cleavers (Light AP, btw). They just stink compared to the 2HCS. In essence, Sworsdmen have 2 weapons, the 2HCS and the Power Hammer. That's all, folks!
Thoax wrote:Posted this before, but not sure if it got lost down the forums, so reposting here:
I play a master swordsman on the side, who also dabbles as a fencer, a TKA, and a pikeman. I've tested out every melee weapon there is, and I've also been on the creation end of all of these weapons. I can run down a list of melee issues from my personal experience.
Swordsman:
Swordsmen may hate me for saying this, but the 2-handed curved needs a nerf. Currently the vibro-axe and 2-handed cleaver are pointless to make except for looks. The 2-handed curved has a lower cert, but it still has medium AP, far higher DPS, better range mods, and comparable HAM costs to the 2 swords above it in the brawler tree. Hell, while we're at it, nerf the 2-handed axe too, hasn't anyone else noticed this is the first swordsman weapon past novice and it already has medium AP? Having mastered brawler, I can say that the swordsman tree was by far and away the easiest to get through.
You can drop the AP on those 2 weapons to light, and they'd still be plenty powerful, and would give a reason to make and use the swords higher in the tree. As it is right now there's no reason to use anything but the 2HCS until you are halfway through swordsman, when your speed and accuracy mods finally allow the powerhammer to become the fantastic weapon that it is. Though there's alot of complaining on the swordsman forum, the majority of it regards issues with their special moves (they currently have about 9 jillion area attacks all with the same general effect). I can say with confidence that I have only come across maybe a few NPCs where I was screwed as a swordsman (Spider clan cave on Dath, something had 100% kinetic, 100% blast, I ended up using my VL or stun baton), and that other than that, I think the weapons are fantastic.
TKA:
Great defense mods, best toughness mods, and the ability to meditate away just about anything from the common cold to the bubonic plague. Let's not forget the powerboost skill which boosts all the HAM pools significantly for quite some time, or the ability to shorten incap. I've sold 250 VKS in about a week, and may have sold more had I not run out a few times. TKAs are living the good life, and there are plenty out there, from masters to dabblers. No need to touch the VKs. They're just peachy.
Fencer:
Not that he'll likely ever read this, but I have to give a shout-out to Ofari, who has purchased probably 250 or more of my gaderiffi batons. Right now, the gad baton seems to be the weapon of choice for most fencers. While I do like stun weapons like the stun baton, this weapon has very high HAM costs, particualrly mind costs, and still has relatively low damage output. The vibroblade is the only light AP weapon that fencers have. Now if you look at the numbers on the vibroblade you'd see it has slightly higher min dmg, and about .4 slower speed than a VK, with much much lower HAM costs (mine are around 11/21/11 as opposed to 31/47/31 VKs). The problem is that the unarmed combatant has the +unarmed damage skill mod to help out along the way, where as the fencer has no such modifier. The end result is that the vibroblade is a pretty poor light AP weapon with a very commonly resisted damage type.
My suggestion would be to leave the stun baton as it is, but to add a rantok schematic, and to give the rantok light AP, slower speed than a VB, higher HAM, but also much improved damage. As I said, right now the weapon of choice for most fencers is the silly looking gad baton which is a very low cert. Making a rantok worth using would be a distinct benefit to the fencer class.
Pikeman:
Leveling up to the novice pikeman cert is like banging your head against a wall. The abyssmal accuracy mods on the LVA cause pikemen to whiff so much, I've been offered jobs as a table fan. For my pike-wielding customers, I manufacture an LVA with the vibro unit and weapon fully experimented for range (after damage is maxed of course), and the best I can do,is still -35/-36/-36. And of course, this also means no HAM experimentation, meaning your specials kill you quicker than the enemy. You better stock up on the BoH and ryscathe. This leaves the LVA with still worse range mods than the powerhammer and vibrolance (my PH is at -30, VL is at -31. I make an accurate PH too that is -19).
Even the vibrolance and powerhammer with the -30ish range mods really arent too useful until you get halfway up their respective trees and get the + accuracy mods. The LVA is just brutal though, consider that it's really the only weapon to work through the 4th box of pikeman and work up to the novice box as well. You could kill trash mobs all day with the regular lance I guess...but just dont go against anything with even light armor.
End analysis here is that they need to relax the range mods on the LVA. The VL is fine in my opinion...light AP with electricity damage is a nice little weapon.
I know alot of the above can be considered more class issues than WS issues, but there is little else to say about melee right now from a WS standpoint. My general gripe would have to be that there are only 2 damage types for each melee profession, (1 for TKA, but they're fine) and at least one of them is always kinetic. This CAN cause some problem when you run into something that resists both of your damage types. All the ranged classes have 3 damage types at the very least.
The other gripe in a lack of melee enhancements.
The high frequency vibro motor is a cruel joke (+5 wound? come on guys) while the high powered vibro motor is nothing special (+20 max damage).
I do use the high powered vibro motors, and I do feel they are nice little enhancements to a degree, however, one thing that needs to be taken into account here is the general difficulty of experimenting melee weapons. For smiths with the +25 to weapon experimentation, it's not quite as bad, but for a regular master there is a significant chance of having poor experiments on the vibro unit itself, and then on the final creation of a weapon like the VK. Most smiths will be making VKs anywhere from 26-29%, meaning that without all great successes, there is a good chance the hand crafted VK can come out several tenths of a second slower, or with a damage only very slightly increased over their factory ones where they have unlimited attempts to make a perfect schematic.
And of course, perhaps the most annoying enhancement, the rancor teeth. I'm not even sure these are still dropping, or if I just keep having people approach me with recycled ones from before they were patched out of the loot table. I have yet to see one though with better than .8-1.0 speed and usually some atrocious HAM like 20/20/20 with 5/50 min/max. These things go beyond worthless to actually being absurd. I mean if they actually looked like teeth they could at least make a cool decoration, but no, not even useful in that respect. Someone said before that the issue is that they replace the core instead of actually being added to the core, however the issue is much deeper than this. Even if you could add those stats to one of your weapons, would you? 1.0 slower speed, 20/20/20 extra HAM for a measly 5/50 min/max damage? I dont care if they keep them as replacements for cores, or if they make them as enhancements for cores (replacements are easier though...see above the difficulty of experimenting melee weapons, it's one less step to fail on), but they need to put these back into the loot table with some reasonable stats.
It's pretty difficult for the melee users to look at all these krayt enhanced stats knowing that the only enhancements they can get is a good slice.
Let's see, anything I didn't cover...
Resources for melee stuff is fine...the 3 words you need to know are duralloy, kammris, and polysteel. The stun baton uses power conditioners...this goes back to the issue of 10% control units being the same as 97% control units in guns...they have no effect.
I'm sure I'm leaving something big out here, but this is a pretty good overview of the state of melee I think.
Thoax Dromallet
Master Weaponsmith
"Guns don't kill people: People with Thoaxcorp Guns kill people"
P.S. Munitions: fix the speed on imp detonators...20+ delay is obscene
The 2HCS doesn't need a nerf...the other 2H weapons need an increase. Swordsmen are *THE* premier damage-dealers. The 2HCS is EXACTLY what a Swordsman weapon should be. The 2HAxe is nice, sure, but you use it for about 30 seconds, so why even bother commenting on it? The Cleaver and the Vibro Axe both need to be revamped...perhaps a different damage type, maybe some higher damage, more AP...there has to be SOME reason to use these weapons. The 2HCS is better than both of those weapons in terms of AP, Damage, Speed, Range Mods AND HAM. There's absolutely no reason to use anything but a 2HCS or a PH for a Swordsman, and that's wrong.
BTW, the 2HCS is almost compare to the regular Curved Sword in terms of DPS...it's stronger, no doubt, but it's meant to be. Considering the comparison of those two weapons, the 2HCS is right where it should be.
As for your comments on 1H weapons, you're way off base. The weapon of choice there is the Curved Sword. The Gaffi Stick is the favorite among Master Fencers, who have such a high speed modifier, the speed is irrelevant to them. The Vibroblade does find use among Fencers who go after bigger prey, as the AP 1 comes in handy. BTW, genius, you can get a Rantok Sword from Jabba the Hutt...it already exists in the game. The weapon of Suck in the 1H tree is the Ryyk Blade. I look at this schematic and everyday think "WHY?"...it's such a cool looking sword.
I agree that Pikemen are screwed. They need to ease off those Range Mods.
I may have to re-look at the Cleaver. I haven't made one in a very long time. I ditched Cleavers just after they instated the patch that let you see the AP in the display, and they swapped skill boxes with the 2HCS (2HCS used to be at Master, and Cleaver was in Advanced). From what I remember, as I was going through 2H Weapons at the time, was that the Cleaver was AP 1, from the damage I was dealing to mobs as a newb.
The Cleaver MAY have been changed...looks like I'll have to dig up some more Colat...I sold all of mine to Armorsmiths. 
One thing I want to mention about stun batons... Byrothsis gemstones sort of gate their max damage. (Never seen a spawn with > 350~ SR on this stuff).
On the subject of enhancements, specifically Rancor Teeth.
The typical 5/50 20/20/20 teeth... obviously those are worthless but they are NOT the only teeth that drop!
I recently was given the opportunity to craft a couple of swords with teeth that were:
9 min 94 max
+.806 speed
+49 Wound (Holy cow!)
-5 weapon range attack mods
10/10/10 HAM.
And I've -seen- slightly better. The better teeth drop much more rarely... and frequently you have to kill ancient/bull rancor type creatures for them. Normal rancors drop the useless teeth.
The 2HCS is by far the best Melee weapon...rightfully so, as the Swordsmen is the master of damage. The problem isn't with the 2HCS, it's the fact that the weapons which are above it SUCK. No one uses Vibro Axes or Two Handed Cleavers (Light AP, btw). They just stink compared to the 2HCS. In essence, Sworsdmen have 2 weapons, the 2HCS and the Power Hammer. That's all, folks!
Cleavers are good all-around weapons, and are in common useon my server.They do nice,consistant damage, and aren't brutal on the action cost like the 2HCS,which I refuse to touch.If you want to see the cleaver improved, ok,but it's workingwell in its present form. By the way, when did theyget nerfed? All mine are Medium AP. On the vibro axe, you are probably right. I never see them for sale, let alone in use.
D'Tox I believe the 2HCS needs a nerf AND the weapons such as vibro axe and 2-handed cleaver need a slight bump. And the cleaver isn't honestly even all that bad...it's a bit slower, but HAM can be somewhat nicer and the min dmg sure is much better. The bottom line is the lowest cert weapon should not have a clear cut advantage in every category over the higher cert weapons. Either nerf the 2HCS andimprove the other swords or just switch around the certs.
As far as fencers go, yes, I meant to say that the gad baton is the weapon of choice for master fencers. The point of the argument is that at master level, the fencers are using a weapon from a first tier brawler skill box almost exclusively as their "primary" weapon. The VB and SB are used in many situations as well, but I can tell you the gaffi stick sells far better than both of these, and also better than the curved sword.
"BTW, genius, you can get a Rantok Sword from Jabba the Hutt...it already exists in the game."
Not surewhere the need arose from for the pernicious sarcasm present in this comment, especially since I never said the Rantok wasn't in the game. I'm very well aware it's in the game...my suggestion was "to add a rantok schematic, and to give the rantok light AP, slower speed than a VB, higher HAM, but also much improved damage."
Key word in that sentence being "schematic"
Let's try to keep this constructive D'Tox, no need to turn it into "I know more about melee weapons than you." I'm sure we both have useful things to contribute to this discussion.
Thoax Dromallet
Yeah, but they are the common drop. Pretty worthless to add a common drop from a rancor that only makes weapons worse.
PloovoTwoForOne wrote:
The typical 5/50 20/20/20 teeth... obviously those are worthless but they are NOT the only teeth that drop!
update your reports logix.
The LVA's -50/-50/-50 accuracy mods make it an absolutely horrible weapon to hit with unless you are a master pikeman.
Logix wrote:HAM costs: I agree, that's why I didn't add it to the list. Devs say it's intended, it's out of my hands.
Pikeman accuracy: This is also out of my hands, it's "as designed". You'll have to push the hell out of that issue on the Pikeman boards, but trying to push it here is futile.
Hi.
Did a dev actually say these were "intended" (i.e. 180 HAM costs on LVA and power hammer / LVA accuracy)? So there is nothing we can do about these huge issues?
One of the few dev posts we've gotten in the pikeman forums said that they did not like the negative range mods. I'm just wanting to verfiy that they are now stating someplace that these points are "intended."
Also, thank you all for the great info.
antares
master pikeman