Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: DPS does matter, mod speed does influence cooldown timers.
In order to accurately tell the difference in speed between to weapons you need to
- use two similar weapons so the character speed mod isn't variable. (2 pistols or 2 rifles, not a pistol and a rifle)upon reflection this is notnecessary.
- use the same specials between both weapons (preferrably just two specials to minimize confusion)
- toggle between both specials continuously
- always queue up the next special so that it fires as soon as it possibly can
- use a large enough data set so the difference in speed will be noticeable. (10 or 15 shots is good enough)
- use the timestamps from the combat tab as the data.
Then you see how many seconds have elapsed after, for example, 10 shots with the first weapon and 10 shots with the second. The faster weapon will have taken less time to fire all 10 shots and the difference is directly related to the difference in modified speed that is listed on both weapons.
If one weapon is not much faster you will not be able to tell after the first or second shot because you can't measure tenths of a second but the difference will be evident after 10 shots because those tenths of seconds will be added 10 times.
I did this test using two T-21's. One had a higher dps, lower max damage, and lower speed than the other one.
T-21's:
1) mod DPS = 453, base DPS = 268, mod speed = 1.75, base speed = 2.95, damage = 503 - 1079 (sac = 104)
2) mod DPS = 495, base DPS = 293, mod speed = 1.51, base speed = 2.55, damage = 469 - 1026(sac = 104)
after 10 shots #2 finished about 3 seconds faster consistantly. This means that it will get off 11 shots in the time it takes the slower one to get off 10 shots. And this does make up more than the difference so that the one withhigher dps does do more damage over time.
There are two variables that are still unknown, and that is the speed factors of the specials and whether or not there is a bottem speed cap, some say its 1.25 some say 1.0, and some say there isn't any but sometimes the game lag will not allow you to fire faster than a certain amount.
Sac can also influence the actual damage over time that your weapon does but for testing purposes its best to use two weapons with similar sac. If the sac's are much different than trying to equate this into the final damage over time will be very complicated.
Message Edited by Alristico on 06-20-2005 04:15 PM
Message Edited by Alristico on 06-20-2005 04:38 PM
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters, DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed. DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE. I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters.DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed.
how can you say mod speed, min + max damage matters and then not DPS when DPS is a direct relationship between these values? that doens't make sense.
DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE.
None of the values that you just mentioned as "matters" factor in these things either. Why do you have double standards?
I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
This may either be from the possible bottom speed cap I talked about or because you don't know how to properly test the weapons.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
is there such thing as a 14 point artisan? I'm thought the cap was 12.
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
why add a speed pup if you don't think speed matters? DPS takes into account speed so if you lower the speed with a pup then you increase the DPS.
Alristico wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters.DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed.
how can you say mod speed, min + max damage matters and then not DPS when DPS is a direct relationship between these values? that doens't make sense.
Because dps is a broken forumle that doesn't properly reflect the damage you can do on mobs
DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE.
None of the values that you just mentioned as "matters" factor in these things either. Why do you have double standards?
We can extend that list if you wish. But it doesn't mather the dps forumle isn't usefull to compare weapons.
I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
This may either be from the possible bottom speed cap I talked about or because you don't know how to properly test the weapons.
Oke lets talk about weapon testing you used 2 weapons ......... that's not even a real test in my eyes. At least get more then 5 different crafted pistols. And what bottom speed cap? We have a thing called(sorry for the typo) diminishing results. I can attack at 1 second according to the combat window. I can do it multiple times so that's not lag at all. but it's either 1 or 2 or really slow 3 second we can't test it like this not enough details. And oh i did test with over 20 weapons and well a real easy result = Low sac,high damage > all else. The difference between 2.0 speed and 2.2 speed weapon is so little compared to having a lower sac or higher damage.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
is there such thing as a 14 point artisan? I'm thought the cap was 12.
humans get a +15 artisan exp i think and a +25 tape(or multiple tapes to get 25)= 14
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
why add a speed pup if you don't think speed matters? DPS takes into account speed so if you lower the speed with a pup then you increase the DPS.
Offcourse Speed matters but not as much as sac or dmg that's why he's talking about using a pup to improve the speed. And yes you increase the dps. but it's a waste to craft a good enhanced weapon purely for dps.
Maceey wrote:
Alristico wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters.DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed.
how can you say mod speed, min + max damage matters and then not DPS when DPS is a direct relationship between these values? that doens't make sense.
Because dps is a broken forumle that doesn't properly reflect the damage you can do on mobs
plz back up your statements. I've shown in my first post how it can be used as a indicator of which weapon will do more damage over time. You can't just say "your wrong" without backing it up.
DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE.
None of the values that you just mentioned as "matters" factor in these things either. Why do you have double standards?
We can extend that list if you wish. But it doesn't mather the dps forumle isn't usefull to compare weapons.
again, back up your statements, i've already show how it is usefull to compare weapons.
I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
This may either be from the possible bottom speed cap I talked about or because you don't know how to properly test the weapons.
Oke lets talk about weapon testing you used 2 weapons ......... that's not even a real test in my eyes. At least get more then 5 different crafted pistols.
I did the same test many times and always came out with the same results. And I did do the test informally with other weapons and the results were still the same.
And what bottom speed cap?
I don't know, did you even read the first post?
We have a thing called(sorry for the typo) diminishing results.
its diminishing returns, not "diminishing results". And the diminishing returns directly affect character mods and the results of this are shown in the modified speed of a weapon. The higher a characters speed mod the less it will decrease the modified speed value of the weapon.
I can attack at 1 second according to the combat window. I can do it multiple times so that's not lag at all
you have no idea of the actual speed because the timestamps do not measure tenths of a second. Only through a large data set which will multiply the tenths of seconds will it become more accurate.
. but it's either 1 or 2 or really slow 3 second we can't test it like this not enough details. And oh i did test with over 20 weapons and well a real easy result = Low sac,high damage > all else. The difference between 2.0 speed and 2.2 speed weapon is so little compared to having a lower sac or higher damage.
the speed difference isn't significant unless one weapon is faster has lower damage and still has a higher dps than another weapon, which is the case with my test and the results showed that even with a lower damage it still did more damage over time because it was fast enough to give it a higher dps.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
is there such thing as a 14 point artisan? I'm thought the cap was 12.
humans get a +15 artisan exp i think and a +25 tape(or multiple tapes to get 25)= 14
humans only need a +5 experimentation tape to cap. You are mistaken. The overall cap is +20 and this will only give you and extra 2 experimentation points so that you have +12.
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
why add a speed pup if you don't think speed matters? DPS takes into account speed so if you lower the speed with a pup then you increase the DPS.
Offcourse Speed matters but not as much as sac or dmg that's why he's talking about using a pup to improve the speed. And yes you increase the dps. but it's a waste to craft a good enhanced weapon purely for dps.
how do you know any of this? back up your claims as I have mine.
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters, DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed. DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE. I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
Alristico wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters.DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed.
how can you say mod speed, min + max damage matters and then not DPS when DPS is a direct relationship between these values? that doens't make sense.
DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE.
None of the values that you just mentioned as "matters" factor in these things either. Why do you have double standards?
PROVE THAT THEY DON'T MATTER!
I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
This may either be from the possible bottom speed cap I talked about or because you don't know how to properly test the weapons.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
is there such thing as a 14 point artisan? I'm thought the cap was 12.
YOU OBVIOUSLY LACK GAME KNOWLEDGE!
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
why add a speed pup if you don't think speed matters? DPS takes into account speed so if you lower the speed with a pup then you increase the DPS.
Blackmoore wrote:
Alristico wrote:
laodamas wrote:
Mod speed matters, min and max damage matters, action cost matters.DPS is a load of crap that means nothing. DPS is a simple formula ((Min + Max)/2 + Elemental)/speed.
how can you say mod speed, min + max damage matters and then not DPS when DPS is a direct relationship between these values? that doens't make sense.
DPS doesnt factor in accuracy bonuses, defence penalties, your lvl vs target lvl for PvE.
None of the values that you just mentioned as "matters" factor in these things either. Why do you have double standards?
PROVE THAT THEY DON'T MATTER!
why would I do that? I've been proving that they do matter in the form of dps.
I can make a gun with high DPS by experimenting speed on all componets to skew the dps higher, but it makes little difference to actual combat.
This may either be from the possible bottom speed cap I talked about or because you don't know how to properly test the weapons.
In my opinion if you want an above average weapon 1) Get a good enhancer to cap max damage. 2) Have the weaponsmith experiment up SAC on componets then put remaining points into speed. 3) On final combine max out or cap max damage and then put remainder into SAC. In the end you should have a high damage weapon with a very managable SAC. You can then use PuP's made by a 14 point artisan to customize your weapon with negligible penalties.
is there such thing as a 14 point artisan? I'm thought the cap was 12.
YOU OBVIOUSLY LACK GAME KNOWLEDGE!
maybe I do in this area, why don't you show me how someone can have 14 points instead of flaming.
The base DPS on a weapon made this way will be lower, but with high damage and low SAC you will hit harder and be able to use specials longer. Add a speed PuP and you will out damage those high DPS high SAC weapons.
why add a speed pup if you don't think speed matters? DPS takes into account speed so if you lower the speed with a pup then you increase the DPS.
Feistin wrote:
to answer the 14pts artisan question: u get +100 artisan exp trough artisan tree. You can have +25 exp with tape. Human get +15 exp (racial bonus) 100+25+15=140 . U got your 14 experimentaion points.
Thanks, I didn't know racial bonus stacked.
P__Day wrote:
The simplest way to show that dps is an inacturate form of measurement is this :
if you fire 20 shots, 1 pr second with a 360 dps pistol 20 x 360 = 7200 points of damage. if you miss 1 of the 20 shotsits 19 x 360 = 6840 and 6840 / 20 = 342 dps.
I never said dps will be an exact result and takes into account variable such as accuracy and def mods of you and your opponent.
the way I'm saying that dps is useful is if you take a similar weapon with similar sac and a lower dps, you will do less damage per second on the same target. So the weapon with higher dps does more damage over time and is a better weapon.
you just have to understand dps in order for it to be a helpful tool when chosing and buying weapons.
some people are saying that dps is useless because it doesn't exactly show the end result. lol it was never meant to exactly show the end result. Just help you gauge the quality of a weapon.