Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: The Armor Piercing System [Preliminary Data]
Back in July, we did a lot of preliminary testing. The testing discovered the AP formulas, and they were as such:
If your weapon is 0 AP above your opponent's AR, you will have no penalties nor bonuses to the damage you do, and will do normal, base damage (assuming damage-types are not figured in and your opponent is 0% resistant to the weapon you are using).
If your weapon is 1 AP above your opponent, it does 1.25x normal damage.
If your weapon is 2 AP above your opponent, it does 1.56x, which is 1.25 * 1.25.
If your weapon is 3 AP above your opponent, it does 1.95x.
Additionally,
If your weapon is 1 AP below your opponent, it does 1/2 normal damage.
If your weapon is 2 AP below your opponent, it does 1/4 normal damage.
If your weapon is 3 AP below your opponent, it does 1/8 normal damage.
These figures were confirmed by D'Tox, Jennai and I. In late August, this entire system changed. With what we thought was a bug in vulnerability at the time, turned out to be sort of a revamp in the armor piercing system.
The bug was as such: Pre-patch -- If you fought Darth Vader[assuming he is AR3 and acid vuln]with a DX2, you would negate any armor rating he had. You would be fighting Darth Vader as if he were AR0, with your DX2, an AP1 weapon. So, you would retain the 1.25x bonus. Post-patch -- If you fought Darth Vader in the same situation, it would negate his armor, however, you would receive no armor piercing bonuses for your AP1 weapon.
I found the change in the code and it was explained by a Developer, and it was also explained that the vulnerability thing wasn't a bug, it was by design. Armor Piercing no longer is supposed to give damage bonuses, in fact, it's supposed to do nothing if your opponent has 0% resistances against you. Instead, it was designed to cut through resistances that were present. This was the formula given for it:
Actual Resist = (Armor Resist Listing) / (AP - AR)* 2.
So, we'll say you're fighting an NPC with 75% Energy resistance and AR1, with a T21 (AP3 and energy).
75 / (3 - 1)* 2 = 75 / 2 / 2 = 18.75. This means the NPC you're fighting should actually only resist 18.75% of your energy attacks. So you're cutting through the resists, as opposed to just getting a blanket damage bonus to every attack. Ideally, this would be an excellent change and the way AP worked (albeit confusing), would make a lot more sense.
Except, it as not as so. In reality, this is the data we gathered:
A T21 headshotting a PvP opponent, wearing a 54% Composite helm.
Combat spam damage: 503. Real damage done: 362. Damage absorbed by helm: 141. Percentage absorbed [actual resist]: ~28%. By the formula, the actual resist should be 54/2/2 = 13.5%
Multiple shots received the same conclusion against this helm, 28% across the board.
And then, we had a Laser Carbine [AP2, Energy] headshotting a PvP opponent with the same 54% helm. Combat spam damage: 252. Real damage done: 144. Damage absorbed by helm: 108. Percentage absorbed [actual resist]: ~43% across the board. By the formula, it should be resisting only about 27%.
[Note that damage done in the combat tab "combat spam" is the base damage. The damage displayed over your opponent's head "the floaty" is the real damage done, after all modifiers are applied. This is how this testing is done.]
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I have tons of more data and theories for possible formulas, but I need to do more testing, especially in PvE. This is just basic testing and the conclusions found from a series of several shots. I encourage you programmers and math geniuses to do your own testing and report your findings, as this is a hell of a lot more complex than we all thought.
Also, there was an Advanced Guide to Armor Fundamentals written.
You can find it here:
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=Advanced%20Guide%20Armor%20Fundamentals
This information has been quoted by a Developer as out of date, and has not been updated yet.
Is the original way a AP0 works against higher level armor still the same? 1/2 then 1/4 then 1/8? It is only how higher AP works against lower AR that has been changed?
Has there been recent changes to this? (meaning you were asking for anyone to test on TC to seeif the damage was doing the correct amount?) Do you have any reason to believe that they are fixing it soon?
--Rorrimot
I don't have full data on AP0 yet, when I have an explanation I'll post it here.
It's hard, because you can't effectively test AP0 in duels. You have to run around and find an AP0 mob with resistances, which I haven't done yet.
If there are recent changes to the "Actual Resist" formula (since the change went to Live in August-Sept), they haven't said anything about it. I plan on trying to find out once I get more conclusive data, though. I have reason to believe that if the way the system works is not intended, then it will be fixed. The thing is, there are so many inconsistencies in the testing we're doing -- nothing makes sense, at all. For example, a set of testing we did resulted in wearing no armor being more effective than wearing a 28% Composite helm, against a T21. I've mostly focused on AP > AR testing, and have yet to do much AR > AP testing, or anything in PvE.
For all we know, their system does work how they want it to work, we're just missing some additional modifiers in our testing. I want it to be a lot more conclusive before I make a formal post about it in the Correspondent forums to discuss the AP system, hence, the creation of this thread.
Message Edited by Logix on 11-29-2003 09:36 PM
The bonus from higher AP than the target's armor DOES in fact work.. however, there are bugs interfering with that being an absolute. One of the problems is vulnerability. The other is PvP.
Quick tests i just ran:
Seething Bol Crusher, no armor, energy vulnerability, laser carbine (AP2), /chargeshot1
231 damage in spam window, 231 floating number above target's head, 231 deducted from that pool.
Humbaba, no armor, 5% energy resistance, laser carbine (AP2), /chargeshot1
341 damage in spam window, 511 floating number above target's head, 511 deducted from that pool.
This has been my observance for many months with no change, though I don't have that exact data to recap here.. but the test gives you the idea.
PvP seems to be treating all player characters as vulnerable to the damage type.. thus not letting the bonus come into play.. but in addition, with armor (always being AR1), the bonus never goes in.. even when using low protection armor that would normally be less of a deduction than the bonus from the AP. Luckily, the armor piercing does offset the negative the armor rating of light would normally imply.
To reiterate, the bonus conferred by having a higher AP than the target's AR does in fact work in PvE, unless that target is vulnerable to the damage type.
Man, I just figured it out. Quaryn, you are absolutely right.
This is how it works right now:
If you have no resistances, the game reads you as vulnerable to everything (as you said).
If you are vulnerable to your opponent, your opponent receives no armor piercing bonus.
But, if you are resistant to your opponent, your armor will receive that armor piercing damage bonus. This is why when I ran tests yesterday, I was getting hit worse with a 28% Composite helm on than without, against a T21.
I went in-game and tested this in PvE. It is without a doubt that armor piercing bonuses are still in this game, but you do not get them with vulnerabilities.
The formula is as such:
actual damage = (combatspam -[combatspam * resist%]) * 1.25^(APvalue - ARvalue)
If AP - AR < 0, then damage = (combatspam - [combatspam * resist%]) * 2^(APvalue - ARvalue)
And of course, if vulnerability is present, combatspam = actual damage.
This just basically means that vulnerability is hosed or the entire system is hosed.
Message Edited by Logix on 11-30-2003 02:56 AM
In order for your armor to (effectively) reduce the damage from an attack you need:
>=50% Damage_Type resists vs. AP3 Weapon
>=20% Damage_Type resists vs. AP2 Weapon
Example: You need armor with >=20% Energy resists in order to reduce the damage of a Laser Carbine. With armor of exactly 20% Energy resists you will take the same damage as a non-armored player from that AP2 weapon.
Meh.
Had her fight eopies, worrts, various yard trash. ALL walked straight through the ar1. She was getting far less than 50% reduction in damage.
This was the post I made last night in the Correspondent forum in its entirety. If you completely don't understand, just scroll down to the bottom for the summary to get the gist of what is horribly wrong with the Armor Piercing system.
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Okay, after the brief commentary on Armor Piercing in the Speed Formula thread, I went through and read all of the old posts on AP and AR.
The gist of it all was that Armor Piercing ran off of a new formula: Actual Resist = (Armor Resist Listing) / (AP - AR) * 2. There was no raw damage bonus applied anymore, except that which damaged the condition of the armor.
So, we'll say you're fighting an NPC with 75% Energy resistance and AR1, with a T21 (AP3 and energy).
75 / (3 - 1) * 2 = 75 / 2 / 2 = 18.75. This means the NPC you're fighting should actually only resist 18.75% of your energy attacks. So you're cutting through the resists, as opposed to just getting a blanket damage bonus to every attack.
Except it's not as such. (Unless I am way off base here and completely misread stuff, in which case I will prepare to be thoroughly embarrassed.) I have lived, slept and breathed armor piercing for the past three days, trying to sort through the confusion and find out the real formulas. This is what I've found.
swgdevbhanson said in September:
If an armor with effectiveness of 30 has an AR1 and is hit with a weapon of AR2, it actually protects as if it had an effectiveness of 15 (30 * .5 = 15). Against a weapon of AR0, it protects as if were 37.5% (30 * 1.25 = 37.5).
This was a quote from swgdevbhanson, explaining the AP v. AR system. Currently, AP2 vs. AR1 30% resist actually protects as if it has 12.5% resists, not 15%. More importantly, according to this information, AP2 vs. AR1 80% armor should protect at 40%. However, it actually protects at 75%.
AP2 Laser Rifle vs. AR1 81% Energy Composite.
261 was the base damage done (damage displayed in combat tab, "combatspam").
69 was the actual damage done (damage displayed overhead, affectionately titled the "floaty").
81% helmet should have resisted only 40.5%. Instead, it resisted 76.5%. I only show one set of numbers because all of the data was consistent through all the shots recorded. I've tested 55% helms, 64% helms, 28% helms, PvP, PvE, all levels of AP.
The Working Formula
After much testing, this is the formula we have discovered.
actual damage = (combatspam - [combatspam * resist%]) * 1.25^(APvalue - ARvalue)
If AP - AR < 0, then damage = (combatspam - [combatspam * resist%]) * 2^(APvalue - ARvalue)
And of course, if vulnerability is present, combatspam = actual damage.
There was one problem, however. I did a set of testing against a T21. I wore a 28% Composite Helm, marked the numbers, then took off the helm and marked the numbers. What happened? I discovered that I was sustaining more damage with the helm on. It took another day before why this was happening actually clicked. Vulnerability. In PvP (as some of the testing was done in the conveniency of duels), if you wear no armor, you are considered vulnerable to everything. We also know that if you shoot a vulnerable target, your weapon is registered at zero, their armor rating is registered at zero and thus, no bonuses or penalties are granted.
What does this mean? The AP damage bonuses are still in effect. This is why I was taking more damage with the helm. The AP damage bonus was removed from vulnerabilities, but it's not removed from non-vulnerable encounters.
Keldarin said last week:
There is one important adjustment you should make on your numbers. Raphayl, you increased the damage of armor piercing weapons versus lower rating armors. This is incorrect. The damage output of a weapon will not go up versus lower rated armor ever. The weapon will do more damage to the armor, but not the target. This caused many of your averages to be higher than they should have been.
This statementI pulled from the commentary of the SpeedFormula thread. However, in game data would prove these statements otherwise.
I equipped a 64% Composite helmet and took headshots from a T21.
In one example, I took 323 base damage (according to the combat window), 183 actual damage (according to the 'floaty'). 146 of that went directly to my mind pool (checked via HAM bar mouseover) and my helmet took 36 damage (verified condition before and after shot).
Using my formula, 323 - (323 * .64) = 116 (rounded off). That formula says to multiply that by 1.25^(3-1), but we'll take it a step slower. 116 * 1.25 = 146, the actual damage I took to my mind pool. 146 * 1.25 = 182, the 'floaty'. 182 - 146 = 36, the damage done to the helmet. So the gun received a 1.25 bonus to damaging my mind pool, and an additional 1.25 went into the helmet.
We also tested this on a bol mount to see how this condition formula worked in PvE, against opponents with no armor. The bol took a portion to mind, but what about the other portion? Mythical black hole. Didn't go into wounds, didn't spillover into other pools. Of course, this was all preliminary testing, we didn't spend much time focusing on condition damage in PvP and PvE.
Summary
To sum all of this up in quick sentences:
- Armor Piercing damage bonuses still exist, and they're not going directly into armor.
- Vulnerability does not retain such bonuses, thus making it so if you fight an opponent 1AR below you, with less than 20% resistance, you're doing more damage than if it had vulnerability.
- NPC opponents take a portion of the damage done that was designed for damaging armor, and put it in a mythical black hole.
- This whole system makes my brain hurt.
Discuss.
I received a PM requesting a "practical" guide for confused Combatants about vulnerability. This is the run-down of what's going on in-game and what you should make of vulnerability:
Against an AR0 opponent:
If your weapon is AP1, you will do more damage to an opponent that has a resistance between 1-20%, than you would to an opponent who is completely vulnerable.
If your weapon is AP2, you will do more damage to an opponent that has a resistance between 1-35%.
If your weapon is AP3, you will do more damage to an opponent that has a resistance between 1-50%.
Against an AR1 opponent:
AP1: 0%, you're better off fighting vulnerable mobs.
AP2: 20%.
AP3: 35%
Against an AR2 opponent:
AP1: 0%
AP2: 0%
AP3: 20%
Against an AR3 opponent:
No matter what gun you have, you will always be better off fighting NPCs with vulnerabilities if they have this much armor.
As I stated in the first post, Armor Piercing receives damage bonuses. But now, while it still receives those bonuses in other encounters, it doesn't receive the bonuses in vulnerability encounters. This is why it is better to fight NPCs with these resistances, because you retain the damage bonus.You don't get any damage bonus if they're vulnerable.
Message Edited by Logix on 11-30-2003 05:45 PM