Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: On our correspondent.
Likaeus wrote:
Unless they make the communications between the correspondents and the Dev Team open to peer review (and how likely do you think that is?), then all you have is conjecture and speculation. A person is perfectly capable of doing a job where one has differing person and professional views on a matter (any politician). How do you know that Logix hasn't reported that some of the communityare upset with the action taken and that some of the communityare either in favor of what was done or wondering what all the fuss is about? You're engaged in a witch hunt. Willing to burn someone at the stake without seeing the magic. Guilty until proven innocent is a particularly odious brand of 'justice'.
For at least the 4rd or 4th time I will say again that NOONE is laying the blame for this nerf on Logix/Ace, and I don't think any of us are blaming Logix for having an opinion. What I can say is categorically my criticism of Logix/Ace is entirely based on the first reply to this thread which served to put the fires out on a controversial issue by pouring gasoline on it. The news leaking from TH that this may have been an accidental change actually casts Logix/Ace in a poorer light. But I'll get to that in a moment.
Since, despite the various posts on this subjectmany of you defending Logix seem to have missed the point of much of this criticism and what specifically we're criticizing, I decided to pull Logix's first post to this thread and explain what my conerns were then, and what they are now.
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There are a number of reasons they could have chosen to do this now. But I think the most logical reasoning would be the unfair advantage to new smiths combined with the mass influx of new enhancement opportunities that overshadow pre-nerf weaponry.
In three months, there are hundreds and hundreds of new Master Weaponsmiths around, now. Master Weaponsmiths who weren't there when you could make 200 max FWG5s, Weaponsmiths who never had that opportunity. Moreover, three months was an ample grace period in that most smiths who did hoard these weapons have long cleared out their stock, thus minimizing the loss of these smiths as best as they could.
Initially I didn't have much of a problem with this segment, except for the fact that it was apparent that Logix hadn't actually contacted the Devs and received an answer about the change. The phrasing in the reply, 'number of reasons they could have', 'I think' is the giveaway that Logix doesn't really know why this change went in and is speculating. My only initial quibble with this is that I think as someone we look to to pass the word on from the Dev's it should have been explicitly stated that this was speculation, or that this was how it actually was. Also not that hard to do 'I've contacted the Devs and they said...', 'The Devs haven't gotten back to me yet, but I think that....' is fairly simple as a clarifying device... but as I said... that was a quibble.
Now in retrospect, with it appearing as if this was an unintentional change and is part of a crate/storage issue I have to wonder just how informed Logix is? Every post on the thread thus far by Logix is in support of adeliberate change by the Devs, if this was in fact a goof then doesn't Logix lose a ton of credibility? Of all of us in this community isn't Logix the one person that should have KNOWN if this was a deliberate change or not, and if Logix didn't know one way or the other shouldn't Logix have been the first person to say 'I'm looking into this to see what happened' before jumping into the argument on either side? I would think being a Correspondent demands a certain amount of responsibility in terms of gathering information before wading in.
The argument that FWG5s, et al, were nerfed to circumvent overpowered Krayt weapons is void. We have Krayt-equivalent loot for projectile weaponry now. Obviously, if FWG5s still hit 200 max, we would be in the exact same position as we were and they would have to be nerfed again. We have Gorax drops, Scope drops, Projectile Pistol Barrel drops; you're really going to tell me FWG5s still should be hitting 200+ max? Are you even going to tell me that these piddly 200 max FWG5s are even that impressive with everything we've got now?
Again a credibility hit here, because in fact the express reason stated by the devs for removing power handlers from the FWG5 was because the possibility of double-enhancing guns by adding high-end krayt tissue and a Nym feeder enhancement was generating some astoundingly broken weapons. It wasn't just that the average damage of the gun was hitting 200, it was that I could make a .8 340 maxdam weapon (unsliced!).
Also here is where Logix turned from addressing the issue that was raised to just sort of thrashing about. Noone in the post had suggested that FWG5s should still be hitting 200+max, noone had suggested that the weapons stuck in crates were all that impressive. What I do find interesting is that Logix is attempting to use two arguments that are mutually contradictory in defense of the 'change'. That being that it's not fair to new smiths to have these great 200 maxdam FWG5s around.... and that those piddly 200 maxdam FWG5s don't make enough of a difference to get that fired up about.
Sorry you can't sell over-inflated pre-nerf weaponry anymore. I guess you'll have to make new FWG5s with new powerful loot that's way more powerful than what you had before.
This was the statement that first annoyed me. 'Sorry you can't sell over-inflated pre-nerf weaponry anymore', is there any way in which that statement isn't meant to be saracastic/insulting? A bunch of people have come out and stated that Logix didn't say he/she wouldn't go to the Devs, and how people in general (and me specifically) just don't understand that people can be objective and yada yada yada.
You know what, I'm sorry call me ignorant, call me stupid and call me closed-minded, but there is nothing in that last statement that suggests Logix gave a rat's hind-end for the position those smiths found themselves in and nothing to suggest that this issue would be brought to the Dev's through Logix.
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You want to defend Logix, go right ahead. But don't do it by saying someone's on a witch hunt or that they're convicting Logix of being responsible for the nerf or that they're ticked off that they lost guns or credits. I didn't lose a single gun or credit to this change, I think that all of the guns should have been removed from the game, and I will be disappointed if this was an accident and is therefore corrected.
None of those things has anything to do with my thoughts on our Correspondent, which are:
- I don't think our Correspondent communicates well with this community
- I don't think our Correspondent posts responsibly in their 'official' capacity
- I don't think our Correspondent respects those in this community that hold different viewpoints, and thusly can't be bothered to represent them as an advocate
- On this particular issue I don't think Logix did even the bare minimum of research that would have told him/her that there was a general crate/container issue and that this was quite likely part of that problem. Instead of being informedand informing us, (which would seem to be the Correspondents role, yes/no?), Logix threw more fuel on the flames.
We were pretty much the Devs Hit Blockers. WHen eversomething happened in the game I got abused by all the rabid people on the forums.
THey pretty much said, we will take your ideas in, but ultimately we are going to do what we want to do.
I remember the one and only times the devs listened to me as the Team Lead, I was so shocked, but when it came into actual implementation it was nothing like the COmmunity and myself compiled.
I think Logix is doing the best job they can. He is a volunteer who also has an opinion on how things should be, and who would like to enjoy the game as well.
It isnt an easy job tell you that much, and it is the most thankless of themall. (even infront of moderating a forum I think)
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I dont think that his position as correspondent removes him of his right to have his own opinion on any given matter. I also doubt very much that SOE really takes these "correspondents" very seriously, by this I mean, they probably arent kept in the loop of every change that the dev team implements. I mean even SOE's paid customer service manager TH doesnt seem very well informed a lot of the time.
I'm sorry if this reply is found offensive to some, but I'm really just going to ask people who post on this thread to actually read the first message posted there before replying to it. I explicitly stated that noone is blaming Logix for having an opinion, more to the point noone has said that he doesn't have a right to his opinion or to express it. NOONE is arguing against his right to have an opinion, and it's really sort of silly for a defense against a non-existent argument to get raised again and again and yet again in rebuttal to other quite valid points.
As to your second point, I know that they likely aren't kept in the loop on every change that's implemented, however that does not prevent Logix from stating that he/she doesn't know if it was a planned change and/or has asked for more information but is only speculating at this point.
At the very least that would save them from the embarrasment of posting multiple times in defense of a change, and dismissing as greedy those who hold a dissenting opinion regarding a change... that is quite possibly just a side-effect of a bugged patch as opposed to a deliberate change.
Itchybacca wrote:
I was a Team Lead for Dark Age of Camelot.
We were pretty much the Devs Hit Blockers. WHen eversomething happened in the game I got abused by all the rabid people on the forums.
THey pretty much said, we will take your ideas in, but ultimately we are going to do what we want to do.
I remember the one and only times the devs listened to me as the Team Lead, I was so shocked, but when it came into actual implementation it was nothing like the COmmunity and myself compiled.
I think Logix is doing the best job they can. He is a volunteer who also has an opinion on how things should be, and who would like to enjoy the game as well.
It isnt an easy job tell you that much, and it is the most thankless of themall. (even infront of moderating a forum I think)
Eola wrote:
FreeEnterprise wrote:
I dont think that his position as correspondent removes him of his right to have his own opinion on any given matter. I also doubt very much that SOE really takes these "correspondents" very seriously, by this I mean, they probably arent kept in the loop of every change that the dev team implements. I mean even SOE's paid customer service manager TH doesnt seem very well informed a lot of the time.I'm sorry if this reply is found offensive to some, but I'm really just going to ask people who post on this thread to actually read the first message posted there before replying to it. I explicitly stated that noone is blaming Logix for having an opinion, more to the point noone has said that he doesn't have a right to his opinion or to express it. NOONE is arguing against his right to have an opinion, and it's really sort of silly for a defense against a non-existent argument to get raised again and again and yet again in rebuttal to other quite valid points.
As to your second point, I know that they likely aren't kept in the loop on every change that's implemented, however that does not prevent Logix from stating that he/she doesn't know if it was a planned change and/or has asked for more information but is only speculating at this point.
At the very least that would save them from the embarrasment of posting multiple times in defense of a change, and dismissing as greedy those who hold a dissenting opinion regarding a change... that is quite possibly just a side-effect of a bugged patch as opposed to a deliberate change.
That post is full of people jumping to conclusions.....why arent you creating posts about the other 5000 people in there? As I said, in that post I think Logix is reacting as a player, not as a correspondent, and I think he has every right to do that, just as you do.
FreeEnterprise wrote: Ok, so Logix did 1 thing wrogn, he didnt state that he was reacting as a player and not as correspondent. As for your explicit statement that he is entitled to his opinion....just because you state that, it doesnt mean you mean it. The rest of your initial post is nothing but slander.
Hrm. So the fact that I explicitly say that I don't have a problem with Logix having an opinion doesn't mean that I mean it.... in fact it so much doesn't mean that I mean it that you have to continuously post how he's entitled to have an opinion despite the fact that for all of the times you've done so, noone has gainsayed you?I guessjust because we don't argue against it, doesn't mean that we don't feel he shouldn't have one?
BTW: For your Word Power of the day (form Mirriam-Webster online):
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Main Entry: slander
Function: noun Etymology: Middle English sclaundre, slaundre, from Old French esclandre, from Late Latin scandalum stumbling block, offense -- more at SCANDAL 1 : the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation 2 : a false and defamatory oral statement about a person -- compare LIBEL -
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So firstly, slander isn't written/typed it's spoken, so you meant to accuse me of libel. Secondly, I didn't lie nor did I misrepresent something that Logix wrote (in fact I quoted his ENTIRE message to avoid any misinterpretation of what he wrote), nor did I misrepresent how events occured, nor did I defame him.
What I did do, in fact, was express my opinion that Logix has failings as a correspondent as specifically illustrated by his response to that thread. Further I illustrated exactly what problems I had with that post and built from there. I'm quite willing to be convinced that I'm wrong and I'm quite open to honest debate on the topic.
However, open debate isn't accusing someone of lying for expressing an opinion that you don't like, open debate isn't telling the person that what they've posted isn't how they feel. All any of that does is send the discussion off on a tangent, and personally I think the core issues are worthy enough of attention that they deserve at least a reply.
Eola.
So what is your agenda here? Removing the corresepondent for this issue is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. You do have a good correspondent. You may not like what he has to say at times but from what I've read he's one of the few folks out there willing to call a spade a spade.
This FWG isssue is like passing a kidney stone. It's going to burn a bit but in the end we'll be better for it. If it is a crate bug I'm somewhat disappointed because it finally seemd that they were taking a step in the right direction. I may not approve of how it was done but the reasons are valid.
Logix is both a player and advocate for this community. As a player he has his own interests to deal with and I would imagine that those interests sometimes conflict with his responsibility as an advocate. Some changes need to happen even if their going to hurt. As an advocate he needs to represent us but certain positions that people take are not going to work. His job is to filter out the legitimate issues and try to get some feedback from the development team.
As I write this post I'm begining to see that maybe responding wasn't such a great idea. Any post can be disected and presented to make a point of view contrary to what was intended. Any one that writes on the defensive is always at a disadvantage. Any one that presents an unpopular viewpoint is usually going to be flamed. You stated that you didnt believe that he was representing the community as a whole. Well other than the FWG5 issue where has he failed to represent the "popular" issues adequitly.
The fact of the matter is that our community is widely seen as a bunch of money grubbing weasels. I've seen smiths proudly boast that they charge 80-100 cpu for making a gun. This FWG5 issue is just another example of unmitigated greed. Had your weapons been on the market you would have profitted but no so many of you held on tothese weapons and distributed them like drug dealers hoping to get someone hooked on the next fix. You played the game and the dev's stopped it so now you need someone to be your damn scapegoat. Well thats crap. Get a clue my man. Logix isn't the issue here. Greed is.
Message Edited by Redguard on 02-18-2004 09:28 AM