Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: On our correspondent.
Redguard wrote:
Eola.
So what is your agenda here? Removing the corresepondent for this issue is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. You do have a good correspondent. You may not like what he has to say at times but from what I've read he's one of the few folks out there willing to call a spade a spade.
Actually I didn't say that he should be removed. *shrug* I think he should do a better job. Part of being an advocate for a community, in a role where you're supposed to speak for members of that community and speak to them on behalf of the devs includes taking heat from that community if you do a poor job.
This FWG isssue is like passing a kidney stone. It's going to burn a bit but in the end we'll be better for it. If it is a crate bug I'm somewhat disappointed because it finally seemd that they were taking a step in the right direction. I may not approve of how it was done but the reasons are valid.
Yes.... and I agree with that and not a single part of my issue with Logix had to do with the FWG5 nerf/bug/whatever. As I've said before I will be very disappointed if this was just a bug, and if it was an intended change than I think it's only a half-done job since there will still be pre-nerf versions of those guns out there. My issue with Logix was 100% about his response to those who had a problem with it, and that he went off on the issue without confirming with Thunderheart that it was an intended change.
Logix is both a player and advocate for this community. As a player he has his own interests to deal with and I would imagine that those interests sometimes conflict with his responsibility as an advocate. Some changes need to happen even if their going to hurt. As an advocate he needs to represent us but certain positions that people take are not going to work. His job is to filter out the legitimate issues and try to get some feedback from the development team.
Yes, but his job is not and shouldn't be to speak for the Devs when the Devs haven't spoken to him on this issue. Am I the only one who has a problem with him speaking as a Correspondent in response to an official change... when there WAS no official change? I'm sorry but one of the things that I look for in a Correspondent is that at the least they're giving us accurate information and when they don't have accurate information to give, they make it clear that they're speculating as a player and not speaking as a correspondent.
As I write this post I'm begining to see that maybe responding wasn't such a great idea. Any post can be disected and presented to make a point of view contrary to what was intended. Any one that writes on the defensive is always at a disadvantage. Any one that presents an unpopular viewpoint is usually going to be flamed. You stated that you didnt believe that he was representing the community as a whole. Well other than the FWG5 issue where has he failed to represent the "popular" issues adequitly.
As I noted to the person that previously accused me of 'slander' his entire post is there to be read, I only inserted comments after sections because quite simply comments tend to make more sense in context. I still completely fail to understand the reference to his 'viewpoint' on the issue. I think I'm on the record a dozen times now with the fact that I AGREE WITH LOGIX REGARDING THE NEED FOR THE PRE-NERF FWG5s TO BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME. There, maybe that will make it a little clearer. My issue isn't with his viewpoint, or even with his expressing that viewpoint it was in him dismissing the concerns of a segment of the community he's supposed to be an advocate for, and in the fact that he did not apparently research the issue through the channels of communication he does have before wading into it up to his hips.
The fact of the matter is that our community is widely seen as a bunch of money grubbing weasels. I've seen smiths proudly boast that they charge 80-100 cpu for making a gun. This FWG5 issue is just another example of unmitigated greed. Had your weapons been on the market you would have profitted but no so many of you held on tothese weapons and distributed them like drug dealers hoping to get someone hooked on the next fix. You played the game and the dev's stopped it so now you need someone to be your damn scapegoat. Well thats crap. Get a clue my man. Logix isn't the issue here. Greed is.
Wow. Okay, since you apparently didn't read any of that other thread, let me politely tell you that you are COMPLETELY off-base. For the record, I lost 0 guns to this issue, I had 0 pre-nerf guns in my possesion post the nerf, and I kept 0-schematics or crates of them afterwards. So before you start smacking people around for being greedy and saying they acted like *drug-dealers* (which given my background is a fairly offensive analogy), perhaps you should actually find out something about who the person you're calling out is? The few FWG5s that I made before the nerf, were on my vendor at the standard price I charge for any FWG5, and so sometime after the patch someone came along and bought all 5 or6 that were there. No price hike, no speculating no secret stock of FWG5s, no greed. Sorry my friend my issue .is. with Logix.
Y'know... it's amazingly easy to just hop in with a knee-jerk reaction in defense.... and I've seen plently of those. Defend Logix's right to have an opinion and express it, flame those who were hoarding FWG5s, say the nerf wasn't his fault, say that you agree with him about it. That's all well and good and I agree with you 100% on each and every one of those things, in fact you won't find any of those issues on the list of Logix's failings as a Correspondent.
Did I blame the 'nerf' on him? No.
Did I flame him for agreeing with it? No.
Did I defend those who've been hoarding pre-nerf guns? No.
Did I state that Logix has no right to have and or state opinions? No.
Flame me if you like, but that doesn't change that my points remain, thus far undisputed.
Logix did in fact jump into that thread in a pretty inflammatory way, without clarifying that he was simply speculating and not in fact commenting as a correspondent. He didn't check with TH, etc to get definitive word on the change and he made it fairly clear what his feelings are towards those that did hoard guns.
Y'know what, a Correspondent is supposed to represent the entire community, even the greedy segment.
Oh and on the subject of greed, let me just say this. There are two types of weaponsmiths, those who are greedy, and those who are over-the-top with naked avarice. How many top of the line Scout Blasters go for 1000 credits? Figure in general they cost what 150 units of resources to make (this is fuzzy math because I'm at work), if a smith harvests his own resources, they cost him roughly .3 credits per unit. Which means even if you factor in 200% costs for production and stocking, the break even price on one scout blaster is about 150 credits. The average price on Ahazi is roughly 8 or 9K, part of that is because Ahazi's economy is sorta screwy and that's pretty much the price you need to stop folks from buying them all of your vendor for resale (and even that doesn't quite do it).
Now admittedly, those selling pre-nerf FWG5s for 100K are over-the-top, but there isn't a single weaponsmith that isn't making large profits on their wares. Some of that defrays operating costs, purchase prices, the fact that a lot of credits are tied up in resource stacks and some things may or may not sell. But let's be honest, we're all making money. But as with many other things, that wasn't the issue that made me post either.
Message Edited by Redguard on 02-18-2004 09:28 AM
I haven't followed this debate at all really, though I did hear about it. Lately I've been wrapped up in the various misfortunes of the smuggler profession and problems we've had with our correspondent there. Now, San-Tsu recently said he's stepping down, and that's neither here nor there. For what it's worth, I'll say the following:
1.) I think the issue of "Logix doesn't know what is going on" is something that is fairly common to the correspondents. From what I understand, and again, I haven't BEEN to the correspondents' forum so I can't speak conclusively, they say stuff, and the devs treat them pretty much the same way they treat the rest of us: little to no response, unless you're on deck for a major revamp like the Droid Invasion or the Crackdown. I doubt the correspondents get much, if any, feedback from the devs. That's a HUGE problem and one of the biggest facing SOE in its attempts to improve and streamline the customer communication paradigm. (look! I said "paradigm!") For all the forum revamps, re-revamps, Top 5 posts, Top 10 posts, appointing TH, In Concept, In Live, In Development, In Testing, etc., etc., etc. attempts, not much has really changed. The fundamental problem is that they don't tell the players that much and a LOT of what happens goes on behind closed doors. Now, to a degree, that's good. I think a 100% transparent development process is a bad idea. It's like thinking about how sausage gets made. You really don't want to know. That said, I think SOE could defuse a LOT of volatile and potentially volatile situations if they were more forthcoming with information about what's being discussed, rough outlines for when things are planned, and more DETAILS on what we can expect. I don't need minutes from the last combat system dev meeting, but some notion of when the changes are planned(more than just "soon" or "in a few publishes" -- more like "Should be in testing in 2 weeks, on live in about 6. Subject to change if we hit problems, of course.") would be good. Regardless, on THAT point, I don't think you can hold Logix at fault, unless he affirmatively just didn't care to ask. Even then, he may be so used to the no info policy, the CIA approach, if you will, that he didn't bother asking because what's the point, really?
2.)I think the key questions on whether Logix makes a good correspondent are these:
- Do his views of the profession match up with substantially all (or at least the vast majority) of the players who play as weaponsmiths?
- Do you have confidence that he's bringing those issues forward appropriately?
- Do you feel he communicates with and facilitates communication among the players who post on this board adequately?
If the answer to those three questions is "yes" then he's doing a good job. In the smuggler community, a number of folks were really troubled by some posts that SanTsu made about the state of the profession. Essentially, it seemed that the problems that many felt were blatantly obvious just didn't register as problems to him, no matter how people argued the issue. There was, naturally, some question therefore as to how effective he was at bringing this information to the devs if he didn't view it as that important in the first place, and, how effectively he would fight on behalf of the players if his heart just wasn't in it. This goes mostly to the first question and tangentially to the second question above. San didn't step down because of this, however, he basically decided (as he'd been thinking for a while) that he didn't have the time to be correspondent anymore. However, from the whole episode, we DID learn something VERY important: if you have a problem with your correspondent, PM Jeassa or PM Thunderheart (ideally Jeassa, since she isn't spread quite as thin) to voice your concerns.
On my last post i apologize for my tone. I guess i got carried away and i by no means think you as a bad person, I just think it is a touchy subject to post about. I bid you well.
Bachreus
Bachreus wrote:
No offense but shut the f*&k up already. You opened this can of worms, you should have thought before you posted this crap. Just like in real life..EVERYONE CAN NOT BE REPRESENTED IN A DISCUSSION SO STOP COMPLAINING THAT LOGIX IS NOT IN TOUCH WITH THE COMMUNITY OR THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM.If there was a problem with our correspondent it would have showed up long before this happened. You sound like a whiny liberal panty waste.
STOP TRYING TO DEFEND YOURSELF AND SHUT THE F*&K UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You made an uproar about a non-issue.
PLEASE CLOSE THIS STUPID THREAD....
Lol, classic... What are we in a dictatorship here? This is most definitely an issue, and I think it would be nice for Logix to step in here and actually clarify what the heck is going on instead of letting everyone make assumptions. I don't understand why he has not done so yet...
Solo4114 wrote:
3.) I think that the devs, TH, et al. would have a much easier time with the playerbase as a whole if they made the correspondents' forum VISIBLE, but didn't permit non-correspondent players to POST on the forum. This would essentially remove the mystery of "We don't know what the hell our correspondent is doign for us, if anything" and would let you know if you're being effectively represented. It might also BE the very communication that the players have been craving. We know things change on the fly. We know that an MMO is an organic thing and that developing it is never a perfectly straight A to B process. There's usually an A prime in there, B minus 1, then you realize, oops, that won't work, and we're off to Alternate A prime on a whole new development track. That's ok. But at least opening up the correspondent's forum for VIEWING would let us know what's going on. As it stands, the entire system seems designed to KEEP information from players, rather than to facilitate communication as it purports.
First off, a thanks for your well written/thought out response refreshing change from the flame that preceeded it.
In the end, I think you're right that currently the correspondent system seems for the most part to be designed to put a 2nd buffer between the Devs and the players, the primary buffer being Thunderheart. The correspondents by and large are there to take heat from the players.The very fact that such tight controls are kept on the information that they're allowed to release at the very same time that the 'party line' from the devs has become 'we're working with the correspondents' seems to be further proof that they're angled into a very uncomfortable place and left with few outlets.
Being the front man for a chain of communication that's dysfunctional at best isn't an easy place to be in, but the community that you support can only judge you based on what you say, and how you relate to them, they can't judge you on the basis of what you're not told and are told not to say. That's whyI still stand by my initial criticism of Logix, and the points I delineated regarding it.
It would seem to me that the solution to being in a crisis point would be to try to reduce pressure, not stoke the flames but in the end it's up to Logix to chose an approach and to deal with the responses to it. I have in the past respected Logix and more often than not I agree with Logix's position on issues affecting the WS community, but that doesn't mean I lose the right to criticize him when I think he's in the wrong.
Not everyone is as well versed and/or inclined to argue a position well. Heck, I have a hard time sometimes just knowing what my position is on any subject. I believe an appology is in order for our correspondant, otherwise if you have a problem feel free to express yourself to TH as to why you should be correspondant instead.
Our board would much more good without having public linchings and mindless rants on unimportant topics.
whew...
rant(0);