Weaponsmith Archive

Thread: DPS does matter! As does.........

DaSh22
Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:44 pm
#1



As the thread header states ‘DPS matters’. However, it is a long way from being the most important stat.


As we all know, DPS tells you how much damage you will do per second over a period of time while spamming ‘Ranged Shot’ or ‘Melee Hit’. It is inevitable – especially hunting solo – that against high end mobs you will run out of action. Also let me point out that I am aware that there are ways to avoid this by not spamming specials, pausing between, or whatever reason you may care to post back with. I know!


You may also run out of action very quickly in PvP encounters, as laying on states etc. eats your bar up in super quick time. My god, if you are a BH whose mark is a knight who is master defender, you are going to be plugging away for some time. You will need to revert to ranged shot at some point.


Spamming default shot/hit is 0% action cost no matter what your SAC is! At this point DPS is all that matters till you regenerate enough action to get off another special. This is unless you take time out to heal or do something else. Lots of people out there don’t have medic so no point stopping your attack.


But – and this is a big but – this is the only time DPS is the most important thing! At any other time DPS is arguably the least important of your weapon stats. This has been explained in countless other posts, which I care little about reiterating here.


Every stat on a weapon is important and the weapon needs to have a balance. A low SAC weapon with capped damagemight not be brilliant if it is ridiculously slow. It is all about balance.


At CL80, the only stat. that is not important is minimum damage. At CL80 all damage multipliers are based on maximum damage of the weapon. I’ve no idea if minimum damage is factored in at lower levels.


We seem to have two groups of people at the moment. The ones who say, ‘DPS is most important’ and those who say that it is all about damage and SAC. Actually I lied slightly, there are some who take a more balanced approached but they seem to be buried in the middle of threads between posters from the other two groups.


Please let us all quit the stupid arguments over this topic once and for all. All stats. matter, some matter more depending on template, play style and what your action bar is going to look like during a fight.


Iwould also like to point out that I am one of the people who rarely even looks at DPS. I go straight to maximum damage and way up the pros and cons against the usually high SAC. The beauty of it now, is that there is no definitive right or wrong weapon as some stats are more important to different people.


I appreciate I may have disappointed some people who came here immediately to post what a retard I am because DPS is not the be all and end all that some people like to think it is. I hope that you have read this thoroughly and understand where I am coming from and what my own personal preference is. Oh well, we shall see.


Oh, and before I am told to get out of the WS forum and mind my own, I have a WS on Tarquinas, who will be starting business in the not too distant future.


And one last thing, has anyone done any testing with two weapons of the same speed with different SACs to see if this has the correct reduction to action bar? Not disputing that it is working as intended, just wondered if there was any hard evidence. Am particularly interested as action bar is 100% and not a set points value.







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samijx
Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:08 pm
#2







DaSh22 wrote:



As the thread header states ‘DPS matters’. However, it is a long way from being the most important stat.


As we all know, DPS tells you how much damage you will do per second over a period of time while spamming ‘Ranged Shot’ or ‘Melee Hit’. It is inevitable – especially hunting solo – that against high end mobs you will run out of action. Also let me point out that I am aware that there are ways to avoid this by not spamming specials, pausing between, or whatever reason you may care to post back with. I know!


You may also run out of action very quickly in PvP encounters, as laying on states etc. eats your bar up in super quick time. My god, if you are a BH whose mark is a knight who is master defender, you are going to be plugging away for some time. You will need to revert to ranged shot at some point.


Spamming default shot/hit is 0% action cost no matter what your SAC is! At this point DPS is all that matters till you regenerate enough action to get off another special. This is unless you take time out to heal or do something else. Lots of people out there don’t have medic so no point stopping your attack.


But – and this is a big but – this is the only time DPS is the most important thing! At any other time DPS is arguably the least important of your weapon stats. This has been explained in countless other posts, which I care little about reiterating here.


Every stat on a weapon is important and the weapon needs to have a balance. A low SAC weapon with capped damagemight not be brilliant if it is ridiculously slow. It is all about balance.


At CL80, the only stat. that is not important is minimum damage. At CL80 all damage multipliers are based on maximum damage of the weapon. I’ve no idea if minimum damage is factored in at lower levels.


We seem to have two groups of people at the moment. The ones who say, ‘DPS is most important’ and those who say that it is all about damage and SAC. Actually I lied slightly, there are some who take a more balanced approached but they seem to be buried in the middle of threads between posters from the other two groups.


Please let us all quit the stupid arguments over this topic once and for all. All stats. matter, some matter more depending on template, play style and what your action bar is going to look like during a fight.


Iwould also like to point out that I am one of the people who rarely even looks at DPS. I go straight to maximum damage and way up the pros and cons against the usually high SAC. The beauty of it now, is that there is no definitive right or wrong weapon as some stats are more important to different people.


I appreciate I may have disappointed some people who came here immediately to post what a retard I am because DPS is not the be all and end all that some people like to think it is. I hope that you have read this thoroughly and understand where I am coming from and what my own personal preference is. Oh well, we shall see.


Oh, and before I am told to get out of the WS forum and mind my own, I have a WS on Tarquinas, who will be starting business in the not too distant future.


And one last thing, has anyone done any testing with two weapons of the same speed with different SACs to see if this has the correct reduction to action bar? Not disputing that it is working as intended, just wondered if there was any hard evidence. Am particularly interested as action bar is 100% and not a set points value.







I disagree....wound % does not matter. It is capped extremely low and would only matter in extremely long battles....perhaps ones that last an hour or longer!








Message Edited by samijx on 06-01-2005 11:08 PM



Sami-jx (Naritus)
Master Weaponsmith, Master Armorsmith, Master Artisan, Merchant 4043

Sambacca (Naritus)
Master Bounty Hunter, Master Combat Medic, Carbineer 0400, Reflexes 0300
XobNoics
Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:29 pm
#3






samijx wrote:




I disagree....wound % does not matter. It is capped extremely low and would only matter in extremely long battles....perhaps ones that last an hour or longer!


Message Edited by samijx on 06-01-200511:08 PM






Lol he means a balance between Damage, Speed, and SAC.



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DaSh22
Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:49 am
#4




I would like to thank Samijx for reminding me why this is only the second time I have posted outside of the trade forums. No matter how well I think I have covered my bases and put forward a reasoned argument, there is still going to be some pedantic so and so looking for any flaw.


/sigh


You are right of course Samijx. The fact that I complete forgot about wound chance is indicative of the importance I lend to it. However many people also think about accuracy. The +17 I am seeing is a nice boost to your mods. ( I am presuming this is working at the moment). Again this is dependent on template as to how much value you assign to this stat.


I was trying – and it seems failed – to simply state, there are lots of things to consider and no one stat. is going to be more important than another for everybody.


By the way Samijx, I am guessing that your post was at least semi ‘tongue in cheek’. I didn't take the post too seriously.


Orgama, where do I get a ‘sky blue pink with yellow dots on' weapon? That would be quite funky!


Any answer to my question about SAC anyone?

Message Edited by DaSh22 on 06-02-2005 09:51 AM



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Muzz
Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:28 am
#5

Weapon customisation would be nice to get back... scopes, stocks etc etc but somehow I doubt we will ever see it again.

And DaSh, your original post was quite correct, every stat has some importance to someone.



Orgama

Weaponsmith (12pt), Artisan (14pt), Merchant, Force Crafting Master
ludio ludius utpote 2003, in pello utpote 11/2005
PopeWeapons
Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:44 am
#6






DaSh22 wrote:



And one last thing, has anyone done any testing with two weapons of the same speed with different SACs to see if this has the correct reduction to action bar? Not disputing that it is working as intended, just wondered if there was any hard evidence. Am particularly interested as action bar is 100% and not a set points value.





I did try this, however I did not record the data.
The numbers seemed to be accurate. I will do another test and report my findings.


Thought I'd throw my two cents in on DPS for what it's worth. Ithink most of your post is line with my thought on the matter.
However I think one thing some people are missing is your actual DPS is not related to the number you see on your weapon. Without even entering into the speed debat, The DPS staton a weapon is a false stat as far as I can tell...I't uses minimum damage as one of the variables in it's calculation.
To the best of my Knowledge minimum damage does not actually effect the damage you are doing in combat.
As an example if i have two adv laser rifles, one is 2.6 spd, 389 min damage and 1100 damage the other is 2.6 spd, 510 minimum damage with 1100 max damage. I go hit something with whatever shot you want and there is no difference in damage done, but the rifle with 510 minimum damage will have much higher DPS. If someone wants to try this please let me know what you find, this is from limited testing.
Having said that...the minimum damage is the only stat taken into account when calculating damage power-ups.
So if you have a low SAC weapon and want to use damage pups may want to take minimum damage into account.


Just to touch on the accuracy I think it's like the other stats and is important only to an extent.
This new system has put many hard caps in place and a lot of what we see in our character sheet can be misleading.


I do agree that itcomes down to the needs of each combatant.
Whatever my customers want is what they get, but as general rule of thumb I make my vendor weapons with low sac high damage on master cert weapons and do a little experimentation in spd on my lower level weapons.

I guess one day we'll all get this figured out and end these debats but untill then I think we still have a lot of learning to do in this new system. Just when I think I know sometihng a patch comes along and changes it. Oh well keeps the game fresh.


Pope




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DaSh22
Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:23 am
#7


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PopeWeapons wrote:


However I think one thing some people are missing is your actual DPS is not related to the number you see on your weapon. Without even entering into the speed debat, The

DPS staton a weapon is a false stat as far as I can tell...I't uses minimum damage as one of the variables in it's calculation.
To the best of my Knowledge minimum damage does not actually effect the damage you are doing in combat.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Does this apply at all combat levels? As stated in my original post, at CL80 only max dmg is used for damage multipliers. Would be nice to know if this is applies at all CLs. Any

feedback would be helpful. I will see what I come up with on a couple of my toons who are not level 80.


I look forward to the results on the SAC testing as well.



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samijx
Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:22 am
#8






DaSh22 wrote:




I would like to thank Samijx for reminding me why this is only the second time I have posted outside of the trade forums. No matter how well I think I have covered my bases and put forward a reasoned argument, there is still going to be some pedantic so and so looking for any flaw.


/sigh


You are right of course Samijx. The fact that I complete forgot about wound chance is indicative of the importance I lend to it. However many people also think about accuracy. The +17 I am seeing is a nice boost to your mods. ( I am presuming this is working at the moment). Again this is dependent on template as to how much value you assign to this stat.


I was trying – and it seems failed – to simply state, there are lots of things to consider and no one stat. is going to be more important than another for everybody.


By the way Samijx, I am guessing that your post was at least semi ‘tongue in cheek’. I didn't take the post too seriously.


Orgama, where do I get a ‘sky blue pink with yellow dots on' weapon? That would be quite funky!


Any answer to my question about SAC anyone?


Message Edited by DaSh22 on 06-02-2005 09:51 AM




Chill out my friend..I was just goofing with ya.



Sami-jx (Naritus)
Master Weaponsmith, Master Armorsmith, Master Artisan, Merchant 4043

Sambacca (Naritus)
Master Bounty Hunter, Master Combat Medic, Carbineer 0400, Reflexes 0300
DaSh22
Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:02 am
#9


________________________________________________________________________________________________

DaSh22 wrote:


By the way Samijx, I am guessing that your post was at least semi ‘tongue in cheek’. I didn't take the post too seriously.

________________________________________________________________________________________________


I know Samijx, that is why I put the above. Was just pointing out that I thought you were probably pulling my leg a bit.


Totally chilled at the moment thanks.



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jason67
Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:22 am
#10

I haven't done any official testing but have used both High SAC and Low SAC weapons, and it does appear to be working as expected (thus the reason I didn't do any further testing on it). It would also appear that Max damage is the only one effecting your damage output at any level though this is based purely on observations not on hard fact haven't done any number crunching on this, but as I recall it was the same all the way through grinding out my pistoleer trees (went from about level 60 to level 80).


Oh and wound does still play an important role, though most people don't pay too much attention to it. As I recall wound is the stat that helps determine DOTS when using your pistol skills (ie bleeds). This isn't hugely impactful but in a close battle could make the difference.





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DaSh22
Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:52 am
#11


Just done my own SAC testing with CL30 toon using CDEF pistols spamming Quickdraw.


Pistol one (SAC 108) lasted for1 minute& 20 secs approx. before action ran right down.


Pistol two (SAC 79) after approx. same time less than half of my barwas depleted. i.e. I had over 50% action left.


Both weapons were exactly the same except the SACs.


So it is definatley affecting the action bar depletion rates. It would be nice to know exactly how though.






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Muzz
Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:47 pm
#12

I name my factory made weapons with the Base DPS and SAC stats, custom crafted and higher end weapons with the Dmg and SAC stats. Do I fall into the middle?

Every stat is important in some way, and different customers want different things out of a weapon. Ultimately, they are the ones that decide what's important for them, whether it be DPS, SAC, Accuracy or the fact that the weapon is sky blue pink with yellow spots.



Orgama

Weaponsmith (12pt), Artisan (14pt), Merchant, Force Crafting Master
ludio ludius utpote 2003, in pello utpote 11/2005
Cygnusaa
Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:34 pm
#13

good post dash22


im master WS (preCU) and i make runs of components experimented in various ways (sac,acc,dmg,spd w/e) so that i can make different guns for different folks....some of my personal faves use components that had a nice balance exeperimneted into them and i use them for my:


maint toon is master pistoleer, master smuggler, bh 4000


typically i find that a weapon with good SAC, ACC and SPD allow me to "crowd control" mobs like rancors and NS quite effectively while others in my group (typically 2 other peeps) dish out the damage and are free to set up in a position out of harms way (ie "training" mobs, pulling mobs etc etc).


i like the fact that my action bar stays high because even though i may have to applyroot, warn, overwhelm etc etc to 4-6 targets (pulling only 1 is boring)....i still like to do a little dmg in between.


most of my custom orders have been for high dmg as these players are speed capped but they still want the weapon to have low sac and good spd...players that ask for high damage seem to be split evenly with remaining experimentation going into sac/spd


id like to point out what you said about minimum damage....for the powerup user, minimum damage is important as DAMAGE powerups use minimum damage as a base to determine what to mulitply the pups % by. subsequently adding that amount to min dmg and max dmg. [min dmg 100 - max dmg 200 gun, a 10% dmg pup will add 10 dmg to min and 10 dmg to max, resulting in 110 min and 210 max]


powerups are not for everyone but they should be taken into consideration.....i sell thousands, despite the accelerated decay (at least they get more that 100 uses now).



anyway, nice post...i like the way youre thinking....it took me awhile to think this way and i needed a knowledgable guildie to put me on the right path





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