Weaponsmith Archive

Polonium Iron needs to be added to Plumbum and Rhodium IMO.

The thing is, you can't remove the Tech IV tree without replacing it with something else and removing it entirely would be such a ground-breaking change to the profession that I don't think should be made at this point.

I think we both agree that you should not be able to skill-up Firearms IV alone and be able to make Master-level FWG5s and whatnot. So if you completely ignore Novice, granting Tech IV 10 experimentation points is a perfect system. It eliminates a large portion of the "Tech IV smiths can't sell a **edit** thing" clause without making the profession too trivial, being that you have to skill up two trees. So you'd essentially be able to be what a Master Weaponsmith is now, with only half the grind.

Problem is, Novice Weaponsmith is still there, with their piddly D18 that is worse than a CDEF, which frankly, I don't know what to do about. That fourth skill tree has to be there and I feel you should have to grind at least two trees before being able to make these firearms at Master-level. Just one skill tree isn't gonna cut it. It would hugely benefit the casual gamer, but at the same time, overpower the powergamer. So I think there should be a two-tree prerequisite at the minimum. I just don't know a perfect solution to fix Novice and Tech IV smiths at the same time.

Also, my hypothetical solutions are based off of the idea that the change would be made only if FA IV schematics were perfectly balanced, etc. That's why I'm not pushing for Novice changes, but I'm still open for discussion. You just can't improve Novice with the gun balance in its current state, right now. It'll screw up the whole system and just make everything worse. So of course, gun balance is a higher priority, because you can't fix Novices without gun balance first.

Logix,

I really like your idea of adding new weapons with their certs high up in the elite classes. If they added enough of them, the entire gap issue would be solved without the massive overhaul of the weaponsmith line. Why rebuild the car when it just has a flat tire? The more items changed and revamped the more likely it is to be broken and unbalanced, trading one problem for another. BUT, if I had, say three new weapons on each elite class to make (including melee, guns, heavy weapons...) I'd be pretty well set with a solid customer base, and I really wouldn't have much time for making scout blasters and two hand curved swords. It would also create an ecconmy where like-level professions were doing business. Master rifflemen would come to me for a t21, while a novice marksman could get his dl44 from a novice smith. To balance out the experimentation issues, why not set the lower level weapons to only need 4 or 5 bars (I don't recall the exact order the exp. points come in) to max out the weapon's ability? It should work somewhat like the arch line does, where low level archs can make small houses and such to feed their harvesters with. Adding the weapons without adding insane amounts of specific resources, combined with a lower level weaponsexperimentation fixwould also help keep MWS from spending their time on stuff like daggers and DH17s. That helps create the market, and quality doesn't suffer.

I don't have anything really constructive to add here. I agree with everything Ace put up.

BTW, for those wondering, I still read these forums, but there really just isn't anything new to comment on.

Hey guys, Im not a WS, I am a Pikeman. One of our issues seems to one of yours as well. I skimmed your list and it was not on it...LVA's, and Vl's for Pikes have insane negitive to hit mods. -55???

The only "fix" for Novices is for Weapon Certs to get pushed up higher into their respective skill trees. The simple fact of the matter is that there is NO MARKET for any gun with a cert below "Advanced" (on the Marksman or Brawler tree, that is).

Who buys D18s? Who buys Swords? Who buys DLT20s?

Newbs.

Do you know how long it takes to go from complete newb to "Scout Blaster"? About an hour. That's how long it took me, using a brand-spanking new character on Tempest.

At some point in time, I thought about buying a D18, but, my free starter CDEF Pistol killed enough mobs for me to hit Pistols 2 pretty easily and quickly. I never had to bother with a non-Master's weapon. BTW, during this time, I ran about 8 missions, and made 5K credits. Had I been on Naritus, I would've had no problem buying a new, Master-level Scout Blaster at that point.

So what's the problem here? By the time a new character feels the need to get a new gun, he's already skipped all the guns a Novice would make. Same goes for melee weapons.

The market for low-level weapons just simply DOES NOT EXIST. That's all there is to it. If the certs were spread out more, so that it takes roughly 3 to 5 hours of gametime to go from one cert to the next (not 3 to 5 hours to get them ALL), then each weapon would have its use.

Looking at Everquest as an example, you had a bunch of weapons that were totally sucky for about 50-75% of the population, who were all level 50 and up. But, those weapons were very useful, and in some cases quite awesome, for people who were level 30 (mid-level). Even though that really wasn't a player-driven economy, it's just an example of how there was a low and mid-level market in that game. This game has NO LOW/MID LEVEL MARKET whatsoever.

The problem with Novice Weaponsmiths has NOTHING to do with the Weaponsmith profession...if you look at Weaponsmith, it follows a very natural progression. The higher you go, the better stuff you can make. That's it. It's just unfortunate that while it takes a Novice Weaponsmith 3 weeks to go from Novice to Master, it takes just about any Brawler or Marksman to go from Novice to Master in a couple of days.

Try it for yourself...start a new, raw, newbie character on ANY server, and try to make Pistoleer. I'll guarantee you make it to at least Advanced without bothering to get a new gun...and at that point, it's Scout Blaster time (and you'll be able to afford it.)

Take a look at what TH posted about upcoming changes to the combat system. One of the cornerstones of this system will be a complete revision of the weapons. Apparently, there will now be novice level T21s up through master level T21s and such, the differences being that the master level ones will be more powerful. In some ways, this will cause a drastic change in the market, and I think a necessary corresponding change in weaponsmithing.

In short, NOW is the time to be discussing this issue of novices and their place in the economy (and by novices, I don't just mean folks with the novice box -- I'm talking about everyone).

If there are to be novice up through master level weapons, and if the weapons are supposed to have more differences now, it looks like the necessary prerequisite will be satisfied in order to REALLY change the WS profession.

If there are going to be master through novice versions of all weapons, then it will make even LESS sense to handicap the novices and intermediates that exist currently. The Techniques tree will HAVE to go if this is done.

I'm not entirely certain what the weapon changes will be. But, I would imagine that changes to the weaponsmithing profession will include access to all of the various weapons, with respect to the levels of customers. IE: novices could create novice versions of all weapons, intermediates would create intermediate versions of all the weapons. I suspect that this will, in and of itself, help novices, but the customer base will still likely be small, so something will need to be done to expand that, regardless (I'm thinking more about things like repair services and such -- and that performing repairs should generate WS XP, by the way).

Regardless, it will not make any sense to maintain the current experimentation system if there are to be multiple levels of the same guns. If we are to move from a binary state profession to a multi-layered profession, what I think should happen is the following:

1.) Experimentation becomes constant for all levels. Everyone gets 10 experimentation points and 10 assembly points to make those items that they have schematic access to. It makes absolutely no sense that novice level T21s or novice level Striker pistols should NOT be adequately craftable by novice level crafters. Essentially, this will involve removing "techniques" from the skill trees. A failure to do this will only result in an even sharper handicap for novices than what currently exists. When these changes go live, they will open new markets to novices. Whereas novice and intermediatemarksmen were limited to CDEFs and D18s, they will soon have access to ALL weapon frames, albeit not all weapon LEVELS. Thus, as a pistol specialist, I'll still have access to EE-3s, E-11s, T21s, Laser rifles, SG-82s, etc. And believe me, I intend to buy them ALL, assuming they are acutally reasonably useful. This WILL create a market for novices and intermediates, IF they are able to craft the simpler versions of these weapons with full assembly and eperimentation points.

2.) This one will be controversial, but given the nature of how the economy will shake out, I think it will work reasonably well. Schematic loss. As you progress up the trees for weaponsmithing, if all weapons are accessible to all levels of combatants, but are differentiated in terms of their power/damage outputs, then schematic loss will not harm ANYONE, and will help ensure that novices will have a market to sell to, intermediates have a market to sell to, and masters have a market to sell to. I'll explain why I don't think there will be a problem for masters under this system. First, the vast majority of the population is at least specialist level. It is also relatively simple to climb the combat trees, at least in the initial phases. Plus, in the mind of the combat player, they WANT to get to the top. Thus, masters will always have a market, and likely a large portion of that market. There will, of course, be dabblers in various skills, as there will also be players who have no wish to level their skills at all. Thus, there will always be intermediates of varying levels. True novice players will be difficult to come by, but there are ways to create marketable skills for novices (IE: the repair ability thing -- all weaponsmiths get the ability to repair at a much higher level than artisans or non-artisans, thereby giving novices services they can sell, rather than goods). Ultimately, schematic loss will have little effect on masters because, they'll still be making ALL the guns, just at the top level. Masters will sell to masters, novices to novices, and intermediates to intermediates. This is, I believe, what the original design was, but when the devs juggled around the cert system and the weapons got screwed up, so did the market structure that I just described. The only deviation from this would be that I'd have masters (to give you an incentive to get there) be able to craft both specialist level weapons and master level weapons (IE: you could craft the stuff you can make as a "Gunsmith" as well as what you'd make as a "Master Weaponsmith").

3.) So, what do we do with the Tech tree if we remove experimentation and assembly as gated abilities and make them constant? Here's my theory. The Tech tree will become the Components tree. The other three trees will be "Frame" trees. Each tree will still be devoted to melee, firearms, and explosives, respectively, but as players advance up the trees, they will be given new framesto make. For example, at Firearms 1, the weaponsmith would be able to make all firearm frames, but those frames would be level 1 frames. Level 1 frames would only be able to take level 1 components, however, which would only be available in the Components tree. What would the effect of this be? Weaponsmithing would at once be harder to master and easier to play as. Allow me to explain.

In order to be economically viable at ANY level of weaponsmithing (past novice, that is), every player would have to fill AT LEAST two boxes. One box to get the frame types they want to craft, and the other box to get the component types for those frames. The jump from Novice to Intermediate would be considerable (obviously some juggling of the WS XP requirements would have to happen, but it'd still be tough), but the payoff would be that you could dabble more effectively. Because experimentation and assembly would be constant, and because the markets would exist for your products, you really COULD just be a guy who makes nothing but level 1 firearms and would be able to at least make SOME money. Dabbling would thus be possible, although being a master would still have its benefits. The primary benefit to being a master would be the obvious economic incentives. Your market would be considerably wider than a specialists. You'd also have the full range of weapons available to sell. From swords, to mines, to guns, you could make it all. Again, this means a wider market. The other benefit would be, as I mentioned, that you could sell to both specialists and master/elites. But, that said, people could still survive as dabblers. But ONLY if they filled two boxes at a time. This would make progression via sales slower, but more rewarding than the current system.

4.) The last thing that would need major revision would be resources. To my way of thinking, the benefit of NOT advancing up the tree would be that you'd need fewer specific named resources. A Class 1 Power5 pistol would NOT need plumbum iron to craft. It would be craftable with any iron type, or any ferrous metal type. A Class 5 version, however, would need more specifically named resources. Now, what would HAVE to happen here is that the class 5 versions would have to be inherently more powerful than previous versions, AND that their resources would NOT be so screwed as to limit the effectiveness of those weapons or provide only a marginal increase over lower models.

If all these changes are implemented, I think weaponsmithing will suddenly become a HELL of a lot more fun and profitable for ALL levels of players. Remember, a Class 5 D18 will (assuming SOE actually manages to design them properly) ACTUALLY BE USEFUL!! If the devs treat the weapons as tools designed for different jobs, then this concept (of a useful D18 and of ALL weapons being useful in different situations) can be a reality, rather than just a pipe dream.

One thing that does raise some questions, however, is how the devs will/should handle the elite and hybrid level weapons. For example, the scatter pistol,lightning cannon, commando weaponry, and the elite weapons like the DX2, Elite Carbine, and T21. If there are novice up through master level T21s, will all weaponsmiths be making these? Personally, I think that, in keeping with the notion that novices sell to novices, and masters to masters, that the trees should work as follows. The elite/hybrid weapons should have three levels, as opposed to the five or six that the starter combat trees would have. These levels would simply be novice, intermediate, and master. The schematics for elite/hybrid weapons should start showing up around the third level of weaponsmithing (IE: Firearms 3), and progress accordingly. So a player at level 3 would be selling Class IV (intermediate) guns to marksmen, and Class I (novice) guns to the elites/hybrids. At Firearms 4 (Gunsmith), you'd be selling Class V (specialist) guns to marksmen, and Class II (intermediate) guns to elites/hybrids. At Master Weaponsmith, you'd be selling Class V and VI guns to marksmen (specialist and master) and Class II and III weapons (Intermediate and master) to elites/hybrids.

[b]When Experimenting on Range and Efficiency, anything less than a GREAT success lowers DAMAGE stats.[/b]

I mean, I can understand a failure of any sort in the efficiency of a weapons experimentation to [i]maybe[/i] lower its damage stat, but [B]W.T.F[/B] does a failure on Range have to do with damage?

Look Devs, as every Weaponsmith worth their salt knows, resources get scarce. Youre spawning system has its merits, along with its horrendous faults. We simply cant afford to be continually using up our precious (Insert your lowest Resource pile you desperately need here) and re-trying to replace a Schematic that had its damage reduced by a bad Range experiment.

Please, its been said a million time, FIX EXPERIMENTATION.

Yeah, nothing's worse than seeing "mild success" and figuring out that you actually made the weapon WORSE. Failures, ok, they should screw the weapon up. But a success should ALWAYS be an increase.

Going back to resources for a moment, let me provide the board with some information regarding what I see as being the top 5 gated resources. I know fully well that swgcraft.com is not a comprehensive end-all be-all list of avaiable resources. I have been charting resources on my server of all 10 planets pretty religiously for the last 13 shifts (been getting slightly more lax over the last 2 shifts, but probably miss very few resources). So .. here is my own data for my server on those resources

DESH COPPER:

Laerakide : UT - 321

Cavaiefu : UT - 360

Fetoekipt : UT - 319

Efov : UT - 330

Fopego : UT - 365

PLUMBUM IRON :

Miptoev : CD - 13, HR - 538, OQ 781, SR 423

Onae : CD - 55, HR- 566, OQ 988, SR 422

Oimeno : CD - 21, HR - 567, OQ - 519, SR -435

Natoboe : CD - 18, HR - 576, OQ - 953, SR - 464

Carbdinowibogewism (yikes) : CD - 6, HR - 535, OQ - 887, SR - 459

Adox : CD - 33, HR - 548, OQ - 204, SR - 402

Ogiote : CD - 19, HR - 509, OQ - 117, SR - 495

Carbesiteine : CD - 46, HR- 529, OQ - 372, SR - 485

Quadoewo : CD - 41, HR - 559, OQ - 295, SR - 414

Kliecabite : CD - 75, HR - 511 (or 311 .. can't read my handwriting), OQ - 873, SR- 454

Wacoiam : CD - 61, HR - 581, OQ - 964, SR - 469

Figoitsis : CD - 52, HR - 513, OQ - 101, SR - 444

POLONIUM IRON :

Fora : CD - 47, OQ - 574

Naviwi : CD - 71, OQ - 423

Triine : CD - 90, OQ - 403

Tovi : CD - 143, OQ - 402

DURANIUM STEEL : (Used in Adv Rifle Barrels - 66% CD, 33% SR)

Twepivite : CD - 348, SR - 794

Duraevalo : CD - 362, SR - 771

Cajoic : CD - 391, SR - 746

Aboug : CD - 399, SR - 763

Afirnine : CD - 349, SR - 739

RHODIUM STEEL :

Quadiwe :

Honestly, my opinion on Basic vs Advanced components is that an ADVANCED component should be MUCH better than its equivalent BASIC component. It shoulnd't be situationally better in some instances, or be slightly better here but suffer there in comparison to its simpleton version.

I apologize about that .. bad slip of the finger and I posted prematurely .. certainly didn't mean to post twice, and most definitely not before I was finished. Heh .. anyway .. here is the remainder of my list ..

RHODIUM STEEL : (used for 66% Conductiviy, 33% Shock Resistance)

Quadiwe : CD -10, SR - 513

Erekeo : CD - 41, SR - 552

Obospehorism : CD - 50, SR - 506

Ouke : CD - 36, SR - 531

Itigioium : CD - 21, SR - 532

Iphoima : CD - 13, SR - 559

Aietherier : CD - 63, SR - 550

Dureno : CD - 56, SR - 523

Anyway .. that's all of it .. just to summarize all of this in the last couple lines, for the characteristics used in these 5 resources, here are the averages of the BEST values in the percentages they are used in their schematicsthat have been seen to date on my server.

Desh : 100UT- 365 - Fopego

Plumbum Iron :50/50 CD/OQ - 521.5 - Onae

Plumbum Iron : 50/50 HR/SR - 525 - Wacoiam

Polonium Iron : 50/50 CD/OQ - 310.5 - Fora

Duranium Steel : 66/33 CD/SR - 520.33 - Aboug

Rhodium Steel : 66/33 CD/SR - 225.33 - Aietherier

The long vibro axe accuracy is horrible. The power hammer has better accuracy than this thing.

I'm a master brawler and 6-7 misses in a row with the long vibro axe is the norm not the exception.

The LVA has accuracy modifiers of -54/-54/-54. This makes playing pikeman very difficult and frustruating..