Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Compilation of Weaponsmith Issues (11/26/03)
Skeld101 wrote:
As a slicer anda Weaponsmith I like to see at least one new field that indicates whether an attempt at slicing the weapon has occured (and/or was successful).
I think this was in the list of things that the first correspondent sent in. Either they forgot about it, or they take three months to make avery minorchange, or they screwed up the implementation anddon't know that it's broken(like the 10% factory exp that was supposed to be done in beta and didn't actually go in until a month after release).
it's really not. Scout has the lowest HAM costs of any pistol, high speed, and damage not significantly lower than the republic/DX2. Plus, it doesn't have messed up ranged mods. Against unarmored targets or targets with energy vulnerability you can make an argument for the scout over other guns (especially with the bugged armor piercing you've been testing).
I'm not here to bicker about a pistoleer issue though. The fact is that the advanced pistol barrel is better in the scout than the non-advanced version to pistoleer, and I DO get requests for them. I'm not grasping at straws, I'm pointing out that it's situational, not useless.
On the subject of correcting the balance between novice weaponsmiths and masters...
Why not make the AR level of the weapon experimentable at the master level?
In this manner, you could allow more experimentation points and schematics to the novice weaponsmith, he would then be able to make good servicable weapons that were saleable, and could even compete with a masters weapons of the same AR rating...
The difference would be (example) that his T21 might have an AR 1 rating, versus a master able to make the same gun with an AR3 rating..
Likewise you could also use the damage type to level the field....a master could make a scout blaster able to do either heat or energy damage, and a novice would only be able to make energy damage scouts...
Just a thought, likely I have displayed my lunacy to all - yet again...
Lurax wrote:
it's really not. Scout has the lowest HAM costs of any pistol, high speed, and damage not significantly lower than the republic/DX2. Plus, it doesn't have messed up ranged mods. Against unarmored targets or targets with energy vulnerability you can make an argument for the scout over other guns (especially with the bugged armor piercing you've been testing).
I'm not here to bicker about a pistoleer issue though. The fact is that the advanced pistol barrel is better in the scout than the non-advanced version to pistoleer, and I DO get requests for them. I'm not grasping at straws, I'm pointing out that it's situational, not useless.
Ranged mods are irrelevant to high-end Pistoleers with high accuracy skill. If you're soloing, you'll never be at ideal, because you'll always be at 0m while tanking or 64m while kiting anyway. HAM costs are arguable, but every Pistoleer I know runs buffed or with properly adjusted stats, which negates the HAM costs. And you cannot make an argument for the Scout based on its energy damage, because the RB is also energy damage with AP1. They're roughly the same DPS, but the RB has AP1 and the Scout doesn't, making the RB significantly more viable. With the AP bugs in, I would always recommend the RB over the Scout.
I don't argue that you get requests for it, but customers are stupid. I received a huge amount of requests for DX2s with Advanced Barrels by Pistoleers who completely don't understand speed mods and think they are going to hit the speed cap with any possible crafted gun. Then I give the long, drawn out explanation about the DPS being lower and the fact that you won't hit the speed cap, yada yada. But really, this component is so situational, it's like saying, "Well the Striker Pistol is still good because there might be a situation where I'm against a low resist Kinetic mob and I only have enough HAM left for one shot with this gunand he's 100% resistant to heat/acid/energy." Doesn't mean the Striker Pistol still doesn't suck. You can find a situational use for nearly every item in the game, but their need to be fixed shouldn't be downplayed by it.
Hero, I think you misinterpreted my post.
The first half was directed toward Solo's suggestion. The latter half was directed towards if we were to just give Novices every gun schematic in the Firearms line and give them 10 experimentation points at Novice.
For the former suggestion: As I stated to Solo, Ifeel a Novice Weaponsmith would make more money selling crates of WUKs than he would selling Master-level Scout Blasters. As I said in my response to Solo, I have an extremely profitable, long-standing business as a Weaponsmith. And I still can hardly get a single Scout Blaster sold. It's not how Imarket them, it's not that my Scouts suck. It's just a very small market on older servers. You have RBs, you have DX2s, what on earth would you want a Scout for? So, you take away my reputation, my customer-base and my resources and try to have a Novice sell Scouts? Ain't gonna happen, the market is too small as it is.
The latter suggestion is what I was referring to as "trivializing" the Master Weaponsmith profession. If Novices flood the market with Master-level Scouts for 1000cr, it's not going to do a thing. Hell, I'm sure that already happens on most servers. If Novices flood the market with Master-level DX2s for 1000cr, then we have a serious problem.
That's why I compared it to the Architect economy, the same thing happened. Architects can craft **edit** near everything but a PA Hall before they hit Master. Before, they didn't have experimentation, so quality didn't matter. Since it was so easy to makehouses and harvesters,many people jumped on the bandwagon and tried to slash prices to get ahead of each other. What happened? Most Architects retired. They could make more money by harvesting their resources and reselling them for an easy 3cpu, than actually crafting them into an item. The going-prices for grind-level resources were higher than a crafted item. It just wasn't worth it, you weren't making any money. [This is all pre-Architect experimentation change.]
Even if Novices have sub-par resources and small customer-base, they still have the power to destroy the Weaponsmith economy if they have the potential to make Master-level items at Bazaar prices. Thus, sacrificing Master Weaponsmiths for the benefit of Novices, you destroy the market and end up destroying the market for everyone.
To sum up: Giving Novices 10 experimentation points and putting the best weapon schematics in Master Weaponsmith won't hurt anything, but it also won't change anything. It just is not that easy to fix, not this late in the game with as many Masters as there are.
Lastly, power-up thing I didn't elaborate on. I'm sure we could have a whole thread full of suggestions. Basics would be to keep min/max crap to Artisan, but expand on new horizons for weaponsmith. Different damage type for 100 shots. +25 Pistol Accuracy for 100 shots. Whatever. Ideally, they'd stack with regular Artisan powerups, as to not step on the toes of Artisans. They would require significantly better resources than that of their Artisan brethren as to retain balance, but they would be cool enough to be worth the materials.
Logix wrote:
Hero_DarkJedi wrote:
Answer? Give the full 10 expermintation points at novice level.
That was the exact same thing Solo said and I rebutted.
The idea was to rebalance schematics properly and remove the Techniques tree/requirement. Problem is, there will always be a high-end gun better than the rest, and if schematics are balanced properly, that gun will belong as a Master Weaponsmith schematic.
I don't see how that is a problem? I think you forgot the issue:
Issue: giving "non-masters" sellable weapons.
Even if you put half the weapons schems in master, then the other half would be sellable.
Thus, the change would do nothing. Players would continue to seek out Master Weaponsmiths for the best guns, Novices would continue to grind in order to be able to make those high-end Master-level schematics.
I don't know how you can make this statement and say nothing would be changed.
The mere fact they could make *some* master level schems gives them a shot at part of the market ... right now if we play "ostrich" every weaponsmith *has* to grind up. (based upon your theory)
As it stands, any Master Weaponsmith entering the market right now will not be able to have a thriving business unless he has stockpiled resources for monthsprior and slashes his prices down to 1000cr/weapon to start up a customer-base. So, obviously, as I said, just because a Novice can make a Scout Blaster as good as a Master doesn't mean he's going to get one sold.
Who said "thriving" business?at least withthis solution thenon-master smith has a *change* to sell that scout blaster.FYI ... I gave a business partner 2 crates of scouts the other day.
Giving Novices 10 experimentation points and then requiring them only to skill up two trees to make the best guns is not going to happen.
Never suggested only skilling up 2 trees ... don't know where you got that? and the *best* guns should be at master ... period.
That completely trivializes the profession. There has to be a reason that everyone still wants to grind up to Master Weaponsmith.
No it doesn't, please don't make wild statements based upon your *bias* ... if you want to make the *best* weapons, your going to have to be a master or you won't have the schems for the best weapons :-)
Otherwise, you'll end up completely destroying the market for everyone, by trivializing Novice and opening the floodgates for another Weaponsmith bandwagon.
How are you *destroying* the market? oh ... your still on the 2 tree's thing ... if the best weapons are in *master* they have to skill up all 4.
But then again, you state they are not going to have those resources, therefore they are not going to be able to compete on half the weapons even *after* they skill up those trees.
Players will perceive Weaponsmith as "easy", they will skill-up only two trees, and they will slash high-end guns down to 1000cr prices. Same thing happened to the Architect profession.
That is not what happened with the arch profession ... comparing us to them is apples to oranges. I could talk you a blue streak on arch's ... and it's not germain to this topic.
If those "WS Dabblers" have to pay 10-1 for the resources to compete, they are not going to be selling guns for 1k ... so that is a dead issue.
Short-term, I think Novices should be granted more items that most Masters wouldn't bother with. Craftable weapon dyes, high-end powerups. Ideally, once you have a thriving business as a Master Weaponsmith, you won't have time to keep all these powerups and trinkets stocked.
First off powerups are the master artisan's trade.
Second off a *good* smith is going to give his customers *everything* they ask for ... otherwise they go elsewhere ...it's bad "customer" service.
Heck ... most of those trinkets would be low build time anyways so getting a 1k in a factory run is no sweat.
But otherwise, fixes should not be sacrificing Master Weaponsmith for the benefit of Novices.
Now ... explain how this would sacrifice anything?
You have brought up several issues ... all of which are easily explained away. My main concern is that YOU are supposed to represent US ... not yourself and your personal views.
The current system in place means that basically a weaponsmith *has* to grind up to master before they get to start being a weaponsmith at all.
The reasons for that are the exp points ... unless you have all 10 ... you can't compete at all ... except to noob players that don't know any better.
That *is* the cause of the problem ... if the goal is to allow "non-masters" to sell *any* weapons at all, the solution has to be centered around that.
You make master weaponsmiths *valuable* in other fashions besides skill points. Weaponsmith is literally one of the ONLY professions you CAN NOT play unless you are a master. That is not right ... and the only reason is because EXP has such a profound affect on weapons.
I would like to see you actually deal with this issue and not bring a lot of hoo-haa into the converstations ... this is not about *you* defending your principles ... this is bout *you* being our representative ...
coughhakka wrote:
On the subject of correcting the balance between novice weaponsmiths and masters...
Why not make the AR level of the weapon experimentable at the master level?
In this manner, you could allow more experimentation points and schematics to the novice weaponsmith, he would then be able to make good servicable weapons that were saleable, and could even compete with a masters weapons of the same AR rating...
The difference would be (example) that his T21 might have an AR 1 rating, versus a master able to make the same gun with an AR3 rating..
Likewise you could also use the damage type to level the field....a master could make a scout blaster able to do either heat or energy damage, and a novice would only be able to make energy damage scouts...
Just a thought, likely I have displayed my lunacy to all - yet again...
This is the same thing ... nobody is gong to buy the t21 at AR1
The problem is simple ... take archs for example ... a small house is a small house is a small house ... no matter if it's made by a master arch or a novice arch. In the Arch field ... now that exp points work for extraction rates only master archs are selling extractors now ... cause nobody but a n00b is going to buy an heavy harvestor that is ER7.
WS one of the only, if not THE only, profession that you HAVE to be a master to be able to play it at all ... it's one of the ONLY, if not THE only profession you CAN NOT dabble in.
And sorry ... that fact is just plain wrong ...
Logix wrote:
Hero, I think you misinterpreted my post.
The first half was directed toward Solo's suggestion. The latter half was directed towards if we were to just give Novices every gun schematic in the Firearms line and give them 10 experimentation points at Novice.
For the former suggestion: As I stated to Solo, Ifeel a Novice Weaponsmith would make more money selling crates of WUKs than he would selling Master-level Scout Blasters. As I said in my response to Solo, I have an extremely profitable, long-standing business as a Weaponsmith. And I still can hardly get a single Scout Blaster sold. It's not how Imarket them, it's not that my Scouts suck. It's just a very small market on older servers. You have RBs, you have DX2s, what on earth would you want a Scout for? So, you take away my reputation, my customer-base and my resources and try to have a Novice sell Scouts? Ain't gonna happen, the market is too small as it is.
The latter suggestion is what I was referring to as "trivializing" the Master Weaponsmith profession. If Novices flood the market with Master-level Scouts for 1000cr, it's not going to do a thing. Hell, I'm sure that already happens on most servers. If Novices flood the market with Master-level DX2s for 1000cr, then we have a serious problem.
That's why I compared it to the Architect economy, the same thing happened. Architects can craft **edit** near everything but a PA Hall before they hit Master. Before, they didn't have experimentation, so quality didn't matter. Since it was so easy to makehouses and harvesters,many people jumped on the bandwagon and tried to slash prices to get ahead of each other. What happened? Most Architects retired. They could make more money by harvesting their resources and reselling them for an easy 3cpu, than actually crafting them into an item. The going-prices for grind-level resources were higher than a crafted item. It just wasn't worth it, you weren't making any money. [This is all pre-Architect experimentation change.]
Even if Novices have sub-par resources and small customer-base, they still have the power to destroy the Weaponsmith economy if they have the potential to make Master-level items at Bazaar prices. Thus, sacrificing Master Weaponsmiths for the benefit of Novices, you destroy the market and end up destroying the market for everyone.
To sum up: Giving Novices 10 experimentation points and putting the best weapon schematics in Master Weaponsmith won't hurt anything, but it also won't change anything. It just is not that easy to fix, not this late in the game with as many Masters as there are.
Lastly, power-up thing I didn't elaborate on. I'm sure we could have a whole thread full of suggestions. Basics would be to keep min/max crap to Artisan, but expand on new horizons for weaponsmith. Different damage type for 100 shots. +25 Pistol Accuracy for 100 shots. Whatever. Ideally, they'd stack with regular Artisan powerups, as to not step on the toes of Artisans. They would require significantly better resources than that of their Artisan brethren as to retain balance, but they would be cool enough to be worth the materials.
Logix,
Interesting idea with the powerups. I think that would definitely help novices, but only if you made it so that Masters couldn't make them any better than a novice. Put simply, if someone can get better quality goods from a master, they will since money is no object in this "economy" (and I use that term VERY loosely). This is why giving novices access to the DLT20 schematic (and assuming you let them craft the freakin' barrels for 'em...) is pointless -- anyone who's going to buy one can get a better one from a master. Now, most masters probably aren't making them, but they could if they wanted to, and they could make 'em better than a novice can even hope to dream of making.
I also wasn't suggesting placing all schematics in the hands of novices. Far from it. That WOULD cheapen the profession. Actually, I think that advancement should come primarily in the form of what schematics you have access to. Stick some of the most powerful ones up at master, and you'll make master meaningful. But don't make it so that the only useful goods come from masters. That's what we have now and it's created a binary state profession: you're either a master or you're not and anything below that doesn't really matter -- it's all just "master in training". Really, at this point, master DOESN'T mean anything. All it means is that you did your grinding already. But hey, let's face it. If you're a weaponsmith, you're going to be a master. Weaponsmith basically = master at this point and I see that as cheapening the profession as a whole just as much as giving novices the ability to do EVERYTHINGa master can do would cheapen it.
You also point out that most people aren't buying scout blasters or really anything but republic blasters and DX2s at this point (and pre-nerf FWG5s). There's ways to fix this problem, and I briefly mentioned them in my original suggestion. Essentially, you have to make ALL the weapons useful for different reasons and make those reasons readily apparent to the players.
The certification system basically is set up so that as you go up the trees, you're given access to more powerful weapons. Only trouble is, as you climb the trees, there's a lot of useless crap certs interspersed between points on the trees. WhenI was climbing the pistol tree, I went from a CDEF to a D18 until I hit intermediate, at which point I got a DL-44 (my favorite looking/sounding pistol in the game), and then up to a scout. From that point on, I used nothing but scout blasters until I got the cert for the FWG5, which I used untilI hit novice pistoleer and switched to the DX2. Currently, I carry a DX2 (for acid damage), FWG5 (pre-nerf for heat damage), Scout (for fast, low HAM energy damage), and a DL44 (for practicing on low-end mobs as I make harvester runs). At the moment, I haven't bothered to buy a Republic blaster because I haven't had much need for it and I'm working on building up cash reserves anyway.
Now, that means that I'm NOT using the following weapons: CDEF, D18, DL44 metal, Striker pistol, Tangle pistol, Power5 pistol, SR-2 combat pistol, DH17 pistol. And those are just the pistols accessible to me -- I'm also not using the scatter pistol or launcher pistol. Still, of all the guns accessible to me (13 if my count is correct), I'm using four, and really only need to be using two or three. I'm using at most less than a third of the available guns. Why? Because the rest of the guns are worthless and useless to me. Most smiths don't make 'em because there's low demand, and there's low demand because the guns are crap. They have crappy damage, half of them are all the same damage type (energy), and they're gimped by lousy resources. Put simply, there's not much differentiation between the guns, and those guns that ARE different aren't useful enough to make the differences worthwhile.
So, what needs to be done is to juggle the usefulness and differences of the various schematics, if we want to make ALL these guns sellable. I mean, think about it. As a weaponsmith, you're only producing probably 1/5 of the pistols that are available to you to make. And that's just the pistols! Wouldn't you like to be able to expand your sellable repertoir? Wouldn't you like to be able to give your customers more options? I know I would.
If the experimentation was constant across levels (still present and useful, but everyone had the 10 points to work with), but advancement was controlled by the number and types of schematics (IE: more complex ones are higher up, simpler ones are lower down), AND ALL the schematics were really useful, then people would be more likely to patronize a novice's or intermediate's shop, but would still go to masters to get other weapons.
Ideally, I'd like to have customers really WANTING to buy one of every type of gun for various reasons. Some of this will come from altering the damage types for the various guns, some of it will come from fixing schematics that use broken resources, and some of it will come from providing better, clearer differences between the guns (IE: if the key difference between a DL44 and a DL44 metal is looks and durability, there's really no point in having the metal one -- unless the durability is MARKEDLY different for the metal gun).
You'd also need to make the mobs vulnerable to different types of damage and resistant to others. Right now, you really only need acid damage, heat, and energy if you don't stray much from the starter planets. Pretty much every mob you meet is going to be vulnerable to ONE of those damage types. Varying this some, adding new vulnerabilities and resistances, would help create a need for varied weapons.
Other gun differences could come from certain guns being better for PvP (IE: the Power5 does energy damage, but it also has a MUCH higher chance to cause wounds). Or, we could have a SERIOUS revamping of the combat mechanics and actually introduce charge packs for blasters -- ammo. You could then differentiate between the various weapon types by how many rounds they carry. You could make disposeable magazines/charge packs that could boost this (IE: it's got an internal charge of 10 rounds, but after that, you have to let it recharge for another 10 rounds -- unless you've got an ammo pack). So, a scout could be fast, low HAM, and high ammo (say, 18 rounds internally) and could take an external charge pack in addition. A DX2 could be slower, higher HAM and higher damage, and have a lower internal ammo count (IE: DX2 would get 12 rounds), but could hold a higher number of external charges. This is just an idea that I literally just came up with, so forgive me if it doesn't sound fleshed out. Let me toy with it a bit and I'll see what more I can come up with.
Anyway, by making the guns at ALL levels of both crafting and certification USEFUL, you'd make them sellable. The problem of "nobody's buying scouts" could be reduced this way and novices would have a better chance at selling their wares. That's not to say that a master who has stockpiled the finest resources for months couldn't out-do them, but hey, resources are something that everyone has equal access to. If you want better resources, do some stockpiling yourself.
But it's clear that novices need SOMETHING to be able to sell as they progress, rather than maintaining the binary profession we've got currently.
Logix wrote:
Hero, I think you misinterpreted my post.
The first half was directed toward Solo's suggestion. The latter half was directed towards if we were to just give Novices every gun schematic in the Firearms line and give them 10 experimentation points at Novice.
I did not know what solo's suggestions where ... I had assumed since you quoted my post you would be answering based upon what I wrote :-)
Not only would I never suggest giving every schem to a novice I actually said rebalance with maybe half the schems in master ... that would be a balance thing anyways ... requires the guns to be properly balanced both in damage and certs.
For the former suggestion: As I stated to Solo, Ifeel a Novice Weaponsmith would make more money selling crates of WUKs than he would selling Master-level Scout Blasters.
I am not as concerned with *just* the novice box ... I am speaking, in general, of non-mastered skills.
I gave a business associate 2 crates of scouts the other day ... he put them on the bazaars in several cities on tat ... all 50 sold within 48 hours at 3k each.
As I said in my response to Solo, I have an extremely profitable, long-standing business as a Weaponsmith. And I still can hardly get a single Scout Blaster sold.
Generally that is cause the peeps that are buying them are not the ones that know about you yet ... they are bazaar shoppers ...
But ... and this is a big *but* ... you need to be careful as our correspondent that you judge everything you do by your own rose colored glass's. If a master smith tells you there is a market for something ... like scouts, please don't discount them as a kook :-)
It's not how Imarket them, it's not that my Scouts suck. It's just a very small market on older servers.
Does eclipse count as an "older server"?? As stated ... I could move 10-20 per day through the bazaar without a problem at 3k each ... been there did that ... just last week :-) (at 3k each)
You have RBs, you have DX2s, what on earth would you want a Scout for?
Characters that can't use a DX2 yet? RB will be fixed and it will be likewise ... but ... this is not a discussion about just scout blasters.
So, you take away my reputation, my customer-base and my resources and try to have a Novice sell Scouts? Ain't gonna happen, the market is too small as it is.
Let's get off the scout blaster issue ... as you are being completely closed minded and that is *NOT* what our correspondent is supposed to be. Just cause *you* can sell them doesn't mean that somebody else can't sell them. As stated before ... move 50 of them in 1 weekend ... at 3k each ... 150k would not be a bad income for 2 days work for a non-mastersmith.
The latter suggestion is what I was referring to as "trivializing" the Master Weaponsmith profession. If Novices flood the market with Master-level Scouts for 1000cr, it's not going to do a thing. Hell, I'm sure that already happens on most servers. If Novices flood the market with Master-level DX2s for 1000cr, then we have a serious problem.
Yea ... you would ... but you know that is not going to happen ... for several reasons ... and your almost crying wolf here ... they only way top teir guns are going to drop in price is due to competition dropping prices to get a bigger share of the business and that has nothing to do with this.
That's why I compared it to the Architect economy, the same thing happened. Architects can craft **edit** near everything but a PA Hall before they hit Master. Before, they didn't have experimentation, so quality didn't matter. Since it was so easy to makehouses and harvesters,many people jumped on the bandwagon and tried to slash prices to get ahead of each other. What happened? Most Architects retired.
Actually ... the real problem was a value proposition. When the servers were young ... folks did not see the value in buying a small house for 60k (18-1 markup) ... people still do not see the value in buying a small house for 60k ... it has nothing to do with exp points ...
Furthermore ... once the 3-1 exchange rate on arch products was established (by the small house) customers had a hard time breaking that 3-1 to judge price. Now some thing for archs are up to 5-1.
Why can't arch sell at 20-1 or 30-1 like we do? because folks do not see a value in paying that much for a house ... or a table ... or anything ..
Take the new harvestors ... great ... they got exp to work ... what happened? nobody can sell any heavies that are not *master* quality now ...
Violia .. by putting EXP in, you have just killed 1 line of the Arch profession ... now nobody can sell from that one line until they grind to master ...
Now make ARch the same as WS ... you would have every arch having to grind to Master before they could sell anything.
I think that is a bad idea for Arch's ... and I think it's a bad idea for WS's ...
They could make more money by harvesting their resources and reselling them for an easy 3cpu, than actually crafting them into an item. The going-prices for grind-level resources were higher than a crafted item. It just wasn't worth it, you weren't making any money. [This is all pre-Architect experimentation change.]
They are still in the same boat ... prices have started falling again for ER13's as the demand slows down.
But for the other 3 trees ... nothing has changed ... and you have dabbler archs that can actually sell stuff in the market.
OMG ... what a concept ... having 1 of the 12 skill box's actually mean something ...
You see ... that is the point of this whole thread ... and that is what *you* as our correspondent is supposed to champion ... the fact that our entire 12 skill box's are meaningless. They are nothing ... the don't matter ... the only thing that really matters is the master box.
That is just not fun ... and needs to change ... and you need to champion a change.
Even if Novices have sub-par resources and small customer-base, they still have the power to destroy the Weaponsmith economy if they have the potential to make Master-level items at Bazaar prices. Thus, sacrificing Master Weaponsmiths for the benefit of Novices, you destroy the market and end up destroying the market for everyone.
Destroy the economy? how so ... please elaborate. or are you still on the "give them every schem"??
If you mean that if you give them something that can compete with the master smiths .. and they sell for a lower price then the master smiths ... and you lose some of your customers cause you charge 30-1 when they charge 10-1 ... if that is what you mean by destroying the economy the please be specific.
You solution right now?
"Idon't care about the fact that a non-master smith is basically irrelevant as long as I keep my customers"
That sounds like what you are saying ... If not, please correct me.
To sum up: Giving Novices 10 experimentation points and putting the best weapon schematics in Master Weaponsmith won't hurt anything,
Ok ... so we are on common ground ... after all of that you are will to *entertain* the notion that giving the non-masters all 10 points at novice would not *hurt*. (considering they don't have the resources, they don't have the customer base, and they don't have all the certs)
While we are on common ground, I think Masters should have something more defining then more schems ... like maybe non-masters could *only* exp on damage/speed and not have HAM's or Range ... but that is another discussion.
but it also won't change anything. It just is not that easy to fix, not this late in the game with as many Masters as there are.
I don't think "lateness" into the game matters at this point ... the fact that all 12 skill boxes before master are basically worthless is a game design flaw that needs to be fixed.
I believe that if the guns were balanced correctly ... and the certs were moved to the correct spot ... and that we gave non-masters (dabblers) the ability to actually compete in some fashion, that would be a good thing.
Here is something to run through your head ...
I believe that if non-masters were given the 10 exp points at novice, we would have less masters smiths running around.
Why? cause they would learn extremely fast that the game is resources ... that it's not an easy path to choose ... and that it's a lot of work.
Instead what we have is a lot of folks that know they need to grind to master ... they acquire the 450k of steel they need ... grind away ... get there and start to realize what a weaponsmith is about.
They have a choice at that point ... to stay and tough it out ... or to bail and do something else. I believe that many that would have *bailed* and done something else decide to stay just cause of the effort they have expended.
If they have found out about the profession as they were actually working their way up they would have been less vested ... and might bail sooner / easier.
Lastly, power-up thing I didn't elaborate on. I'm sure we could have a whole thread full of suggestions. Basics would be to keep min/max crap to Artisan, but expand on new horizons for weaponsmith. Different damage type for 100 shots. +25 Pistol Accuracy for 100 shots. Whatever. Ideally, they'd stack with regular Artisan powerups, as to not step on the toes of Artisans. They would require significantly better resources than that of their Artisan brethren as to retain balance, but they would be cool enough to be worth the materials.
There are a lot of things we could suggest ... but that doesn't change the plain simple fact:
Problem: All Weaponsmith Skill Boxes are Useless
Cause: Exp Points have such a dramatic effect on the guns that guns without full exp are not going to sell making them useless
Fix: ??
Either give the 10 exp points up front ... change how the exp points to lessen the impact ... (maybe making the guns more resource dependent?) ... give points earlier *and* change how the exp points work (non-master can't exp on anything but damage).
I don't know ... there are several ways to *attempt* to fix it ... but the bottom line is that we should not sweep it under the rug as we have ... it should be *on the list* ... top 5? heck no ... but on the list somewhere to make the dev's aware of it ... they might actually have a creative way to fix it :-)
My two cents....
First, elite carbine has AR1 and the laser has AR2. Maybe it should model after the t21-laser riffle instead? Just a thought...
As for the gap between novice and master, I don't think the problem is in the weaponsmith tree at all. i think it is in the certification process. (yes, i even said this as a novice). There is no market for lower end weapons because none of the combat classes need them long enough to spend the credits on them. Personally, i went straight from a cdef riffle to a laser riffle. I never bothered with a dlt20a. Sure you may get a few rifflemen who carry a scoutblaster, but they'll already have a master they buy their weapons from by then. Although the gap IS a weaponsmith issue, the problem isn't in the weaponsmith line. The problem created by moving the certs up though, is keeping the game entertaining enough for new players to keep it past the free trial period, and quashing the outright rebellion that the combat classes would pitch. Not real sure how to get past that.
Every skillbox in Weaponsmith, at one point, served a purpose. It just doesn't now.
The problem is, at the time a Novice Marksman can use a Scout Blaster, he could probably afford ten of them if he tried hard enough. But the system wasn't designed like that. It was designed that Novice Marksmen would go to Novice Weaponsmiths. As they grew, they would move to more-skilled Weaponsmiths until they could afford the best from a Master.
Of course, we all know it didn't turn out that way. We have these 93420432 Master Weaponsmithsin the economy, undercutting and competing with each other, in a system that was designed for a only few top Master Weaponsmiths offering highly prized, highly expensive weaponry.
This is why we need more guns and more gun certs. We need a whole line of elite profession weaponry. We need something that comes at a Tier IV skillbox for an elite profession, and then another few guns that come at Master of the elite profession. This way, we'd have such a huge gap in certifications that it'd provide a boost to the weapon economy.
If it were me redesigning the Weaponsmith profession, I'd put these Master-Elite-Profession weapons at Master Weaponsmith. I'd keep the Techniques Tree in, but it would max out to 10 at Tech IV, not Master. Your sought-out Marksman weaponry, FWG5s, RBs, Scouts, Lasers, would of course, be available in the Firearms tree, pre-Master. If you wanted to make the best-of-the-best, you'd still have to get Master Weaponsmith, though. But, since Elite Profession combat grinds are still difficult, and there are so many hybrid characters who don't master any elite professions, you'd still have a steady market for Marksman weapons. So you wouldn't be stuck in the "everyone only seeks out Master schematics" economy.
Logix wrote:
Every skillbox in Weaponsmith, at one point, served a purpose. It just doesn't now.
The problem is, at the time a Novice Marksman can use a Scout Blaster, he could probably afford ten of them if he tried hard enough. But the system wasn't designed like that. It was designed that Novice Marksmen would go to Novice Weaponsmiths. As they grew, they would move to more-skilled Weaponsmiths until they could afford the best from a Master.
Of course, we all know it didn't turn out that way. We have these 93420432 Master Weaponsmithsin the economy, undercutting and competing with each other, in a system that was designed for a only few top Master Weaponsmiths offering highly prized, highly expensive weaponry.
This is why we need more guns and more gun certs. We need a whole line of elite profession weaponry. We need something that comes at a Tier IV skillbox for an elite profession, and then another few guns that come at Master of the elite profession. This way, we'd have such a huge gap in certifications that it'd provide a boost to the weapon economy.
If it were me redesigning the Weaponsmith profession, I'd put these Master-Elite-Profession weapons at Master Weaponsmith. I'd keep the Techniques Tree in, but it would max out to 10 at Tech IV, not Master. Your sought-out Marksman weaponry, FWG5s, RBs, Scouts, Lasers, would of course, be available in the Firearms tree, pre-Master. If you wanted to make the best-of-the-best, you'd still have to get Master Weaponsmith, though. But, since Elite Profession combat grinds are still difficult, and there are so many hybrid characters who don't master any elite professions, you'd still have a steady market for Marksman weapons. So you wouldn't be stuck in the "everyone only seeks out Master schematics" economy.
Logix,
An interesting proposal, and not a bad one. But that still doesn't solve the problem for anyone who doesn't master the techniques tree. You'd still have to grind your way up through Tech IV in order to be able to sell anything, and that's the real point here: gated experimentation means that customers willonly shop from those who can experiment fully. It doesn't really matter what you're making, or at least what you make is secondary to how well you can make it.
You are right, however, that as the servers have matured, as the player base has moved from novice to specialist to elite novice to elite masters, the demand for goods has shifted. This is also part of the problem, and it's what I was getting at (or at least trying to) in my most recent post. By making all the weapons actually useful for different purposes, you increase the demand for them. Right now, with so many of the weapons being basically the same or just plain crappy, there's no demand. No one buys Strikers or Tangles, despite their different damage types, because they're weak by comparison to other guns. A creature that has 20% resistances to all damage types except kinetic energy will still probably be hurt more by a well-made RB or FWG5 than by a Striker doing full damage. No one buys Power5s because they're gimped by lousy resources -- slower than scouts and FWG5s, and comparable in damage to FWG5s (at least, they were -- I haven't checked recently).
So, you're absolutely right that we need to create a demand for products if ANY of us are going to have anything to sell. No question about that. Adding new schematics is also a great way to do it, but I think they could work on fixing the existing ones in addition to adding new ones. Hell, maybe by fixing the current ones, they'd learn what needs to be done to make useful weapons and could then add in USEFUL new weapons. God knows the DLT20 ain't cuttin' it.
But, even with all of that, that still won't solve the problem. You'll still have 12 out of 16 boxes that are useless until 4 of those 16 are filled, even if you drop the full 10 points into Tech IV. You'll shorten the amount of grinding that needs to be done, but it'll still be there.
I agree with Hero's assessment that most folks probably WOULDN'T go to master if they could dabble and actually sell some stuff here and there. It took me about a month to go from FA Ito Tech I, largely because I was trying to support myself as a surveyor in between. Earn a little, spend a little, grind a little. That's how it went for me. Now I'm seeing just how much stockpiling you have to do if you want to compete as a weaponsmith. I've got about 55K worth of lousy plumbum iron, I just stashed away about 18K of VERY high quality duralloy steel, and I'm working on stocking up on some high quality amorphous gemstones. Resource harvesting is, quite simply, a pain in the ass, and if that's what it takes to be a master, I suspect most folks would give it up in a heartbeat and would simply be happy to stay as an intermediate weaponsmith.
Making that a possibility, while ensuring that the masters still have a market, is what I think needs to be a primary goal. Top ten at least.
You said it yourself. You basically agreed with a prediction I made about a month and a half ago: because there is no middle ground in weaponsmithing, everyone grinds to master, then realizes that they have to attract customers, and so begin the price wars. Ultimately, everyone loses as a result of the current system.
A big part of this, however, is due to the design philosophy of the game, which is to reward advancement by giving access to "better" as well as "more." That's a problem because it creates a top-heavy population. People at the top aren't satisfied with just having "more" they want that "more" to also be "better" than what came before. I think that's a mistake.
If I were redesigning weaponsmith, I'd start by redesigning the guns themselves. Yeah, the stuff at the top of the marksman tree should be more useful -- and it is currently. An acid damaging pistol is more useful than an energy damaging one, given how mobs rarely resist it and can often resist energy. But there ought to be more sharp differentiations between the weapons. To my way of thinking, as a pistol specialist, what makes me better than a novice is not simply that I can aim better and shoot faster, but is also that I am more proficient with DIFFERENT types of weapons that are useful in different situations. I'm more versatile. The problem is, the designers did all of that AND made the stuff at the top more powerful (or tried to, anyway -- they screwed up with a lot of it).
Personally, I think that the scout blaster is an exceptional weapon for what it does. It's fast, light and easy to use, and does good damage. It doesn't hit as hard as, say, an FWG5 or Republic blaster, but it also won't suck my HAM down as quickly. On the other hand, my DL44 dishes out MORE damage per shot, but does it slower and at a higher HAM cost. It also wounds better than my scout, so it'd be better in PvP to a degree. It's also better for killing low-end mobs in one shot. Now, both these guns do the exact same damage type and both have the same general durability.
What could be done with all the weapons is to make them excellent weapons in their own right, but designed for specific purposes. This is what real life weapon companies do. Some guns are designed around the notion of stopping power. Other guns are designed around the notion of penetration. Some are designed to be lightweight, easily useable weapons. Others are designed to be heavier and sturdier, so as to compensate for the higher power of the round they fire. Take even a sub group of sniper rifles. You've got the Walter P2000 (I think that's the designation, anyway), designed to be compact and lightweight. You've got the PSG which (again, I believe) has better range than the Walther, but is not as compact or lightweight. Then you've got the Barret .50 caliber rifle, which is huge, but designed for serious penetration (and could take your head clean off, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood). Different weapons designed for different jobs, and none inherently superior for EVERY job.
Take swords, for that matter. You've got your Scottish claymore, a two-handed beast of a weapon designed to cleave off limbs by sheer weight. You've got the rapier designed to be used primarily as a stabbing weapon or as a slashing weapon when using the tip -- lightweight and quick to maneuver, but you won't be hacking off limbs with it. Then you've got the japanese katana -- exceptionally well made and versatile, but single-edged and not as useful in tight quarters, due to its length of about 36 inches (usually). Which is why the japanese created the wakizashi, a shorter, single handed version of the katana which is more useful for indoor usage or close quarters combat. Again, all exceptional weapons, but all used for radically different purposes.
This is the kind of design philosophy that I think we need in the weapons of SWG. Not simply a progression of increasinly powerful weapons, but different weapons designed to perform noticeably different jobs and perform them WELL. There should not be a "one weapon fits all" uber gun that is best to use in every situation. Each weapon should have its own unique purpose. You can see that SOME of this was present in the original game design, but it just didn't come to fruition. I think that that design philosophy should be consistent throughout.
So, under that type of setup, even a D18 would have some functional purpose. HAM costs could be comparable to the scout blaster, but damage could be a little higher, while speed would be considerably lower (limited to, say, 2.7 seconds minimum). The key advantage would be the cheap cost to produce, which is why such a gun would be put low on the cert level (because you're targeting the gun to the masses, rather than specialists). You could improve the stats on the special damage weapons (Striker, SR-2 -- special damage due to its AP rating, Tangle, FWG5), and make weapons like the DH17 and Power5 (and DL44 metal, while we're at it) have more specialized uses. But basically there shouldn't be a gun that evokes a "Dude, that's the best pistol in the game!" response. They should ALL be good, the question should be what you want to do WITH them.