Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Weaponsmith Bug and Repair Discussion: Crafting CL
Bio Engineers are different. There is no way they can sample tissues without going out into the wilderness. I'm not sure exactly how the process works, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they'd never be able to do it a CL 1. I have never perceived them to be crafters "just like us". We can be WS without leaving the confines of a city (not very practical, but it could be done). A BE couldn't say that. I can see the logic in giving them levels for what they do.
True enough that CL does not necessarily equate to skills - in the way it's proposed here. But the normal way to get combat levels is by using skill points on combat boxes. And most of these do give you skills. But what I see here is that people don't want skills, they want to be bulletproof. I don't know where you guys live, but it's not like I step outside my house and see MOBs camping my factories or harvesters on a daily basis. Since the CU, I've had harvesters on 6 planets and I regularly travel around Talus, Correlia, Tat and Naboo. I'm CL 21 and a rebel combatant. I get incapped on occasion, but the only time I have been killed is in space. I am sure there are occasions when I glide by an aggro MOB because of my level, but I still can't imagine it happens every day.
I have 2 reasons why I am so against this. I spent skill points to retain pistoleer. One of the reasons was so that I wouldn't get killed constantly while tending harvesters. It really chafes me that people want the same advantage I have without spending any skill points. People can justify their position all they want. But at the respec we all had a choice. Blame the system, blame the devs, blame SOE all you want. We all knew what would happen well before it did. I didn't like the CU before it came down (precisely because of levels), but I adapted to it. And part of my adaptation was to sacrifice Merchant skills for combat skills. I earned my levels. I want others to do the same.
Second is that it's obvious to me that this is an EQ2 dev team. I played EQ2 from near launch to the end of January. It was obvious to me these people do not like crafters. They love loot drop weapons/armor because they are easy for them to control. Crafters are unpredictable because no matter what, we always find a way to make stuff consistently better than they anticipate. And to them, that's unbalancing. So what does that have to do with CL's? Because it makes us look like whiners, it's not something that is going to happen and it diverts attention from real problems with crafting. We could have a 100 page thread about this and it will change zippo. A year from now, CL1 crafters will still be getting killed by Durnis. And this does nothing to address the uselessness of the Scythe, DE 10, Beserker, etc. It doesn't do anything to address the sloppy way the devs applied CL to weapons and the related resource requirements. And it doesn't do anything to give us decent Theme park loot. All it does is give a Dev team that doesn't like us to begin with a good reason to further ignore us.
EdOWar wrote:So why then do Bio-Engineers get combat levels and modifiers? They're a crafting profession, right? Look, SOE completely changed the ground rules on us, to the absolutely absurd point where a bunny rabbit with an attitude problem can incap us in one or two hits. That's sheer and utter stupidity, nothing less.
Granting elite crafting professions a few combat levels isn't the end of the world. It's not like any of us are asking for the ability to solo krayt dragons, or wander around Dathomir with impunity. We just want enough time to try toget away when something on aggros us, at least on a starter planet. That's not much to ask for.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
A 'few' combat levels? How many is a few? It would need to be more than a 'few' to be of any use.
I guess after he's put forward the opinions in this thread we just have to sit back and wait to see what happens.
Thank you all.
Muzz wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
So why then do Bio-Engineers get combat levels and modifiers? They're a crafting profession, right? Look, SOE completely changed the ground rules on us, to the absolutely absurd point where a bunny rabbit with an attitude problem can incap us in one or two hits. That's sheer and utter stupidity, nothing less.
Granting elite crafting professions a few combat levels isn't the end of the world. It's not like any of us are asking for the ability to solo krayt dragons, or wander around Dathomir with impunity. We just want enough time to try toget away when something on aggros us, at least on a starter planet. That's not much to ask for.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
A 'few' combat levels? How many is a few? It would need to be more than a 'few' to be of any use.
Actually no. You dont. most of the aggro you run into surveying. Except on 'eliete' level plannets like Yavin, Endor, Dathomir etc. Are generally around levels 1-10 I find. Mucking about with stuff durring the CU I found that as long as I was at least around CL10. most stuff in generall that usually causes me so much greif near my factories, homes and harveters. Generally fell within this level. And now that generally speaking NPCs wont agro anything 5 levels higher than them. Say put us at level 15 and we should be golden. it'll also give us a few more HP for when that high level mob attacks or what ever.
I've certainly more than once condiered dropping weaponsmith which I picked up pruely for making explosives for my commando etc so I can have some combat levels. More so now that our guild currently has now something like 6 weaponsmiths.....
But I like crafting.... must.... craft.....
Oohhh Shinies!
Kesslan wrote:
Muzz wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
So why then do Bio-Engineers get combat levels and modifiers? They're a crafting profession, right? Look, SOE completely changed the ground rules on us, to the absolutely absurd point where a bunny rabbit with an attitude problem can incap us in one or two hits. That's sheer and utter stupidity, nothing less.
Granting elite crafting professions a few combat levels isn't the end of the world. It's not like any of us are asking for the ability to solo krayt dragons, or wander around Dathomir with impunity. We just want enough time to try toget away when something on aggros us, at least on a starter planet. That's not much to ask for.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
A 'few' combat levels? How many is a few? It would need to be more than a 'few' to be of any use.
Actually no. You dont. most of the aggro you run into surveying. Except on 'eliete' level plannets like Yavin, Endor, Dathomir etc. Are generally around levels 1-10 I find. Mucking about with stuff durring the CU I found that as long as I was at least around CL10. most stuff in generall that usually causes me so much greif near my factories, homes and harveters. Generally fell within this level. And now that generally speaking NPCs wont agro anything 5 levels higher than them. Say put us at level 15 and we should be golden. it'll also give us a few more HP for when that high level mob attacks or what ever.I've certainly more than once condiered dropping weaponsmith which I picked up pruely for making explosives for my commando etc so I can have some combat levels. More so now that our guild currently has now something like 6 weaponsmiths.....
But I like crafting.... must.... craft.....
Oohhh Shinies!
i could see a system where a master crafter would max out at CL14-CL27 (at the novice elite box of a combat prof, or at half the CL of a single master combat prof). this MAY be something the devs would go for, but getting CL80 for being a double crafting master is truely a pipe dream, i can tell you that. it just ain't gonna happen.
still, there is noting in ANY crafting boxes that would warrant granting CL like Bio-E has unless you use the argument about surveying. that line would get you to around CL8-Cl10. we might have a genuine argument there to gain the CL with that tree. so, the question is, could you live with being a CL in that range, or do you want it to be higher?
Ferrek wrote:
I really think the best would be to drop the whole CL-issue and rather remove the damage multipliers. Those are the reason of the one-hit incaps, and that's what crafters really ought to be pushing for. It really makes no sense neither from a generic game-mechanical nor from a realistic point of view to have those multipliers. If they were removed, CL1 crafters would still have a fairly challenging time in the field on the "higher-level" planets, but they would no longer get one-hit incapped on the "low-level" planets. If that means high-level mobs becomes too easy for combatants to take down, give them a higher damage-output based on the mob's level, not the level of the character it's attacking.
you and 300k other people think we should drop the CL system, but it simply ain't gonna happen...
Mor-Dan wrote:
Ferrek wrote:
I really think the best would be to drop the whole CL-issue and rather remove the damage multipliers. Those are the reason of the one-hit incaps, and that's what crafters really ought to be pushing for. It really makes no sense neither from a generic game-mechanical nor from a realistic point of view to have those multipliers. If they were removed, CL1 crafters would still have a fairly challenging time in the field on the "higher-level" planets, but they would no longer get one-hit incapped on the "low-level" planets. If that means high-level mobs becomes too easy for combatants to take down, give them a higher damage-output based on the mob's level, not the level of the character it's attacking.
you and 300k other people think we should drop the CL system, but it simply ain't gonna happen...
I don't think he's saying would should drop the CL system...I think he's saying would should drop asking for CLs for crafters (so they remain CL 1), and instead remove the system of damage multipliers based on differences in CL. Still probably won't happen though. 
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
That's not what I said. Read it again.
Mor-Dan wrote:
you and 300k other people think we should drop the CL system, but it simply ain't gonna happen...
Well lets try this idea.
Instead of giving Crafters a combat level, lets push for what I'm going to call a "Defensive Level" or DL for short.
Now how this would work is based on a players "lack of combat level". For example on the Test Center I have a toon that is the following:
- Master Artisan
- Master Merchant
- Master Weaponsmith
- Marksman 0044
Which gives my character a combat level of 10.
Now what would happen is by virtue of the crafting masteries, this would give the above toon a Defensive Level of 70. This in sense would be a lvl 80 toon but with minimal combat skills. On the Character sheet this would add 1000 HAM to a crafting character plus what ever is added by the combat level. But the Defenses would be somewhat below a lvl 80 combat character, but would provide the crafter enough time to escape a potential situation.
But what abouta crafter with a master elite combat profession?
Again taking another toon I have on the Test Center, who has the following skillset:
- Master Artisan
- Master Shipwright
- Marksman 0044
- Master Carbineer
This skillset gives this character a Combat Level of 54. And would give him a Defensive Level of 26. This toon could stand andfight if needed, but still wouldn't be an effective fighter as CL80 character.
But here is the basic idea, I think through this we as crafters can work this out where it helps us, and still doesn't "unbalance" things either.
I think the easiest way to do this would be to have certain CL ignore you at certain levels. At master Artisan up to CL 15, and at Master Weapon/Armor/Tailor/Chef/Architect CL 30. It would be easy to code that as (x) crafter has (a) skill box (b) creature level ignores him. It wouldnt add CL to the crafter nor give him any combat ability or increase in ham only have creatures ignore him. Just a thought...Hoping you guys get anything at this point...I need my WS and AS who seem to be on the short end of the stick lately.
Oh as an edit, those who dont have master artisan, could get the CL 15 ignore at Novice (insert elite crafter here).
Jorguus K'Ariel Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire
Message Edited by Korom on 06-28-2005 01:34 AM
We don't need CL or more HP or better attacks or better weapons.
We need those cl 2 bunny's to stop auto attacking me when i run outside cnet.
The stupid bunny's suck and they are so not needed to attack every living thing they see.
Just let them remove some of the frequent argo spawning creatures a bit. Everytime i go to my factory's it's either durni's or gubbers. And those spawn just a little to much on a starter planet like corellia. Well if your not on a starter planet that's your problem. Offcourse there should be higher level argo's on the starter planet but not around cnet or any other city.
Message Edited by Maceey on 06-28-2005 11:45 AM
how bout a max CL of 14 or 20 instead of 54 or 80, that way we aren't a treat to carry damaging weapons kinda like an elite carbine, with krayt tissues max damage is over a k and only need to be 54 to use, so give us a higher level then 1 but lower then 54 so we can atleast try and defend ourselves if we need to doa harvester run. Maybe some special crafter arm that only novice crafter can wear or half way thru so a combatant can't wear it, you know give it a skill requirement that isn't going to make a combatant want to dabble into a crafting profession.
Armor should be strong enough to help us escape but not to strong to where we could defeat a krayt. Something like basic armor or standard which ever is the lesser, any class, assault, recon or battle but ONLY the weaker basic or standard, still good armor but not enough to tank high CL's.
So we could use decent weapons and have fair armor we could protect ourselves and still not be a treat to the PvP, GCW or kill high end things for "awesome" loot