Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: over saturation of rare weapons
For starters, I said kill the techniques tree, NOT kill experimentation. Experimentation is VITAL to the WS profession, and indeed to any profession like it (armorsmith, artisan, etc.). What I'm suggesting is that the WAY experimentation is doled out be changed. People should have full experimentation at all levels, BUT should only be able to make certain goods at those levels. IE: Novices can only make a few items, but those items can be made as well as a master makes their weapons.
The KEY difference between masters and novices would be not the quality of the goods, but the complexity of the goods.
Take a look at the requirements for a D18. They're pretty general. You need, generally, metal, a little bit of copper, some ore, reactive gasses, and some inert petrochemicals. But, you don't have any specific resource types (IE: Zintromo Reactive Gas or whatever) and you can craft the weapon anywhere (no need to be by a station to do it). By contrast, as you move up the firearms tree, your requirements become more specific, your components require factory production, etc., etc., etc. It's not that the quality of the goods should necessarily be any different. We've ALL sweated to get to novice WS, so presumably we've all learned a bit about crafting. Thus, my ability to craft a DL44 should be the same raw ability that a master has at crafting a DX2. The key difference, however, is that I can't craft the DX2 because it's just too bloody complicated to do it, and I don't have the experience necessary to do it. A master, on the other hand, does. By the same token, the master who has risen to the point where he can craft a DX2 wouldn't deign to soil his hands with a DL44. He's moved on from that, and his schematic availability shows that.
Alternatively, you could leave Masters with the ability to craft all the weapons, but let their ability to experiment be no different than someone of lower level, if we're talking low level weapons (IE: scouts).
I just hit firearms 1 the other day, and I was ecstatic. Finally, I was going to be able to build some decent weaponry. I crafted my first scout blaster, and saw taht it was utter crap. This is partially because of the lousy resources currently available on Kettemoor, but it's also because I'm going to have to grind through the tech tree just to be able to make a halfway decent gun. Even then, a master can (and likely will) outcraft me. Scout blasters sell. And I have to expect that a master knows this and will sell better quality versions of it than I will. I can try to undercut him, but given the availability of money in this game, why would anyone bother with me unless they're a newbie?
So, I'll have to get to master to participate in the economy, really. And then I'll just start undercutting all the various masters out there. And that'll be the way it goes until we drive ourselves out of business. That's why I see such a need for real stratification and the ability to survive at any level. As long as the guy above me can make exactly what I make but better quality, I'll always be screwed. Unlike, say, the automobile market, no one HAS to settle for a Saturn. Everyone can afford a Mercedes if they run a few delivery missions. Try it some time. Go between Moenia and Theed running delivery missions for about 2 hours. You'll probably make about 10-20K just doing that.
EEMAN wrote:
there isnt, every subcomponent we make (barrels, powerhanders, scopes) all HIGHLY depend on experimentation to get "UR BEST BANG BANG" into the hands of the illiterate class in SWG. So every step of the way the difference between master and expert is 3 experimentation points which amouts to as much as 30% and thats from EXPERT, nevermind those that werent intelligent enough to grind to techniques4 before going beyond firearms1. The only solution is as masters to price our stuff high. The problem is new masters are being idiots about the whole thing and are trying to undecut the market by 50%.
ouch!! illiterate class? and just what class would that be? all those buying their guns from you, maybe getting tissues for you? do they know you call them an illiterate class? wow, unbelievable. SWG has now hit the all time low in this game, allowing those like you in it.
angel.
Once I got to Techniques IV I was able to sell scout blasters and DLT20a's on the bazaar for around 3K each. This isn't a huge amount of money, but they did sell. That said, I think it's poor design to have to grind up to Techniques IV to get all of our experimentation points. As it is now, you're either a Master WS, or your a Novice WS grinding your way to MWS. 
What would be nice is if experimentation points were specialized for different weapons: Firearms Experimentation, Melee Experimentation, Munitions Experimentation, etc. Then replace Techniques with Heavy Weapons and give Heavy Weapons Experimentation. Then you could get all 10 of your experimentation points for a particular weapon by working up that particular branch. Master Weaponsmith would simply give you access to specialized weapon schematics, and maybe give some weapon assembly bonuses, but wouldn't give experimentation points.
That way, if someone just wanted to be a Gunsmith, they could grind up to Firearms IV and could stop there if they wanted to. There might be one or two types of firearms they couldn't make without being a master, but they would be able to make 90+% of the firearms. Likewise for Melee, Munitions and Heavy Weapons.
Alas, this will never happen, but it would have addressed several issues.
As for the economic ramifications of having too many MWS, I'm not worried about that. I think that a lot of the current MWS will either quit the profession and try something else, or quit the game. And a lot of the current Novice WS grinding their way to Master will get tired of grinding or discouragedby the resource scrambleand give up. There will always be a market for good weapons. Prices may drop a bit, but the weapon market will never bottom out completely.
Just my 2 creds.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
The Bazaar is the magic ingredient for the novice weaponsmith - and presents him with his greatest opportunity.
Many weapons like the DLT20A, Scout Blaster, and DL44 can be made quite nicely by a Novice/Expert weaponcrafter - and will sell quite well. Masters dont want to go near a 3000 credit cap, so they reserve their weapons for the high priced crowd that frequent their shop.
Please remember that there is an "artificial" bubble in SOE economics caused by the games release ... most of the folks are all at the same level - kind of like a 'Baby Boomer" glut of people who leaped in to SOE with both feet on the day of game launch.
That means that MOST of the population has at least two masteries, and is looking for that "Uber" weaponry... six or seven months from now, the 12 year olds will have playted themselves out, moved onto the next game, and there will be many new players to replace them - with a taste for the inexpensive guns that only newbies can afford.
Advice for the current market: be a "tweaner" ... reinvest your funds into heavy harvesters and sell resources. Look ahead at what you will need when you get "Master" and start stockpiling the good stuff. There are many other occupations that you can earn a living at as you move up the "grind" tree of weaponcrafter - and assume that you will need something other than the 15.00 per month you are paying to establish your market and your shop.
There is no free ride anymore, stop asking for one - and stop complaining about it. Compete with the Fat Cat Beta Masters and own them - they are complaining that you DARE sell a pistol for anything less than 100,000 credits - "...and it's not right....(pout)..."
You have all the tools necessary to establish yourselves if you work at it ... recognize your market opportunities and play them to the hilt. Give away Powerups, make weapons with scopes and stocks, hand a free grenade to all new customers, hire buck nekkid wimmen to lap dance for your customers.... do SOMETHING other than whine and complain - please.
These Master WS's who undersell will go out of business! Period. I am not concerned about them in the least. And it has nothing to do with th value of money. It has to do with covering expenses. I sell my weapons at the well established prices for my server. I charge what I see people are willing to pay with in reason.
Recently I began tracking my expenses and sales to actually measure my profit and I laughed at the result. I sold over 200,000 credits in weapons, yet the cost of running my business only yielded me a 27% profit. That is 54,000. Any one one selling below average prices will not be able to cover the cost of maintaining a business.
An example, I sell my Laser Rifles for 6k. If you take the profit of 27% out my cost ends up just under 4k. Anyone selling below this is not going to earn anything.
My costs are a little higher because I am establishing a business. This means purchasing large harvesters on occasion, and other installations to help me become more efficient. This is what it takes to get a business to grow. As someone else stated if I did not get larger harvesters then how can I maintain my inventory of minerals to support my customers.
Selling at low prices, making no profit, running around just barely staying stocked in materials is no fun. Fun is the reason we play. Sellers of this nature will not last. This is how the market reaches equilibrium.
All of the inflation of money mumbo jumbo doesn't mean anything when you are trying to pay bills as a business owner. The cost of machine maintainance is not affected by inflation. Materials can be purchased for between 2.5 and 3 credits. That price will not get lower or higher because WS and Architect's cannot afford to pay more and it is cheaper to harvest your own. People selling materials are offering a service.
Therefore, without the change in the costs of the business, the prices have to at least cover those costs plus add a profit to make the business worthwhile. Why would anyone do this if they could double the money they make by running 2-4 missions a day then run around doing whatever they like. Not me I'd give up my skill points in a minute and run missions if I didn't enjoy what I do.
Someone else said it is all about the customers. That is the truth. It is funny, I get my regulars that come back all of the time and never question my prices. They also rave about my quality. I still get those few that tell me "UR GUNZ SUCK". Whatever. I do not let them affect me. All they are looking for is a low price with high damage and low speed. I prefer a more discerning customer and that is what I get.
Kona Emgrey
Master Weaponsmith
Tarquinas - West of Anchorhead, Tatoonie
Well, I can appreciate that it's all about customers, and I agree. It IS all about customers. That's part of the problem. The customers have outlandish sums of money available to them, so, really, price isn't THAT big a deal, within reason. Whatever price caps exist are psychological in nature -- someone is simply unwilling to spend X amount of money, despite the fact that they could make it up in about 2 hours worth of playtime (which, actually is a lot for me these days).
But you're right. Customer relations is a good thing. Only trouble is: how the hell do you get customers when the quality of your product is so inferior? You know what I've heard in response to my (and others') cry to revamp the trees? I hear, basically, "Well, don't be a weaponsmith while you're trying to get master. Go survey and make money that way. Or be a resource dealer." This, my friends, is EXACTLY my point with why this profession is so screwed up at the moment.
You can only really "be" a weaponsmith, at least in the economic sense, when you are a master. At the very least, in order to sell competitively on the bazaar, you have to grind up through AT LEAST Tech IV. Some folks say you can make around $3K per gun on the bazaar. Maybe that's true, but your guns had better be worth it, and that means hoard all your steel, grind away making PRBs, and get up to Tech IV, THEN begin the slow economic climb up the rest of the ladders.
Doesn't that strike you as a bit flawed? What this means is that, practically speaking, to be a Weaponsmith, you don't just have to hit master. You have to hit Tech IV as well. At that point, maybe you can sell your stuff on the bazaar (which is nice, because it cuts down on overhead), but good luck financing a house, vendor, and a fleet of harvesters at least on your WS salary alone.
To me, that's a sign of a flawed profession. It's one in which a crafter can't really craft until they hit at least a specialist level. Now, this wouldn't be as big a deal if there was some incentive for Masters to take on apprentices who could craft components FOR them, or who could craft lower end guns for them. But, there's no reason for that. Everyone wants to do it on their own. Maybe you'll team up with a surveyor who'll bring you resources, but really, you'll probably just end up being a solo operation.
And in the end, if it's all about customers, why should anyone buy from YOU? Some of it will be customer service, sure, but I'm sorry, the nicest guy in the world can make me a gun, and if it's crap, it's crap, and I just won't buy it. That's the predicament of the novice or rather the master-to-be. That's why I think the profession needs a major revamp. Like I said, though, I don't expect anything like that to happen. It'd probably make too much sense, upset too many people, be seen as a nerf, or just upset the status quo, which god knows will send people into fits of rage, even if it benefits them in the end.
So, SOE will shrug their shoulders and can sit back and watch as the WS craft grinds to a halt. Literally.
Solo4114 wrote:
So, SOE will shrug their shoulders and can sit back and watch as the WS craft grinds to a halt. Literally.
Well, I think you're being a bit fatalistic here. I don't think the WS craft is going to grind to a halt, literally or figuratively. True, a WS does need Techniques IV to be even remotely competitive, but there are ways to make a buck as a non-master WS that don't include running missions. You just got to hustle some, just like in real life. There are no free rides, no one owes us any unearned favors and life isn't served up on a silver platter. And expecting the Devs to come riding in to completely revamp theWS professionto make it more to your liking is unrealisitic. We just got to deal with it the way it is;MWS is achievable if you want it bad enough and if you're willing to do what it takes.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
angelonfire wrote:
EEMAN wrote:
there isnt, every subcomponent we make (barrels, powerhanders, scopes) all HIGHLY depend on experimentation to get "UR BEST BANG BANG" into the hands of the illiterate class in SWG. So every step of the way the difference between master and expert is 3 experimentation points which amouts to as much as 30% and thats from EXPERT, nevermind those that werent intelligent enough to grind to techniques4 before going beyond firearms1. The only solution is as masters to price our stuff high. The problem is new masters are being idiots about the whole thing and are trying to undecut the market by 50%.
ouch!! illiterate class? and just what class would that be? all those buying their guns from you, maybe getting tissues for you? do they know you call them an illiterate class? wow, unbelievable. SWG has now hit the all time low in this game, allowing those like you in it.
angel.
just goes to show how a small mind things in small ways. The illiterate class is the one who cannot speak in full sentances because its soo much cooler to talk in 1989 leet talk script kiddie language. Literally (no pun intended) using phrases like "UR BEST BANG BANG" and "I 0wn j00". Quit flying off the handle trying to flame everyone you see and use that organ between your ears before you go flaming someone.
The simple fact is that the game has a really fun and interesting crafting system
Most crafters pay to craft (if you think that you don't add up the time you spend grinding and chasing harvesters and compare it with the 50K an hour you would have got had you gone BH/CH cookie-cutter)
If crafting were unpleasant or arduous prices would rise
Because there are disproportionate numbers of weaponsmiths and other crafters product is generally sold at not much more than cost to very wealthy combat characters
Blame Sony for making crafting such fun
EdOWar wrote:
Well, I think you're being a bit fatalistic here. I don't think the WS craft is going to grind to a halt, literally or figuratively. True, a WS does need Techniques IV to be even remotely competitive, but there are ways to make a buck as a non-master WS that don't include running missions. You just got to hustle some, just like in real life. There are no free rides, no one owes us any unearned favors and life isn't served up on a silver platter. And expecting the Devs to come riding in to completely revamp theWS professionto make it more to your liking is unrealisitic. We just got to deal with it the way it is;MWS is achievable if you want it bad enough and if you're willing to do what it takes.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
I think I'm being more realistic than fatalistic. Think about it. The only viable economic participants are master weaponsmiths, right? I mean, yes, you can make SOME money working as an expert, but you absolutely HAVE to have Tech IV in order to do any kind of steady business. Otherwise, it'll be hit and miss at best on the bazaar, and you'll be selling your gear for around 300-500 creds a pop. Yes, there are other ways to make money. That's not the point. If I wanted to make money, I could play as a combat class and take destroy missions. I can play as my smuggler/WS character and try slicing for money. Or I could sit around at the starport saying "Spare any change, man?" But again, that's not the point.
I'm talking about pure weaponsmithing here. And to do that, you HAVE to get Tech IV to remain viable. If you want to make any real money you have to be a master. So, what's that mean? If we figure that most people who go into weaponsmithing are in it 1.) because they like crafting, 2.) because they like crafting guns, and 3.) because they want to make money, well, #3 is going to be rather difficult. And if #3 is difficult, #s 1 and 2 will be difficult as well. How will you get resources to MAKE the guns? How will you support your harvester and factory infrastructure? How will you pay for a vendor or a house? Simply put, you won't if all you're doing is weaponsmithing. Now, yes, there ARE the survey missions. Running a survey mission out to your harvesters can pay for them for about three days, if you take two of the same resource and it's a high concentration. But you still need the initial investment capital, and you'll be limited to two missions per run, which means that you'll need to do a LOT of running just to make ends meet.
Now, I'm not saying weaponsmithing should be easy. Far from it. You SHOULD have to pay your dues coming up. But at the same time, the odds are so stacked against novices as to be basically ridiculous. And frankly, it's NOT fun to craft right now. I like crafting to make QUALITY goods. I can't do that. I can only make quality goods when I hit Tech IV. It's almost as if you have five boxes worth of "Novice Weaponsmith" before you really get to start crafting in any kind of fun fashion.
To me, the whole system just seems poorly thought out. We require an entire tree after novice to make any weapons of real value. When we've done that, there are only a few particular weapons that are actually useful to make. At the same time, Masters out there can make them better than a Tech IV player ever can, and frequently DO make them. Now, I'm not blaming masters for making things that sell. But I am blaming SOE for designing a crafting system that rewards, basically, ONLY the experts or the masters, and punishes those of lower levels.
I mean, I do enjoy making the guns and all. And it's nice to get a particularly decent gun (why, last night I made one that was almost at 20% all around! Yeah! -- by the way, I'm at Firearms 1 and that's it). But it's depressing as hell to make a DH17 carbine that has somewhere around 50 as the average HAM rating, with a 5.6 speed and relatively low damage. My scout blasters have speeds of 3.2 and HAM ratings averaging 20-25. So, yeah, it's neat that I can make guns, but who the hell would want to use them?? And therein lies the problem.
We're all being subtly (or not so subtly) pushed to the top. And when we're all at the top, then the top has no real value. "Top" is a relative term and if EVERYONE is a master, then "master" is meaningless. That's the situation we're in now, and that's why this is such a threat to the profession.
Follow it through to what happens when EVERYONE is a master and producing roughly identical quality goods. How does one make money? Well, you basically don't. You'll either have to cut your prices to spur interest in your goods, keep your prices high and sell fewer goods, or attempt to somehow distinguish yourself through customer service. And while that'll take you some of the way, it won't take you all the way.
You know what? When I was first thinking about becoming a weaponsmith, I posted on this board and asked "Hey, can you make it as a firearms expert only?" Know what pretty much everyone said? "No way, dude. You gotta be a master." Ok, so I'm on my way now. But I'm realizing that EVERYONE is on thier way there. There's no way to be a weaponsmith, economically speaking, if you're not a master, at least if you intend on making your money through crafting weapons. It just isn't going to happen.
As for the bit about expecting SOE to change the crafting system, I don't expect them to. I expect them to make minor adjustments and to hope that attrition keeps the numbers of WS's down. And maybe it will. Maybe people will just quit the game, maybe masters will burn out, maybe folks will be turned off by what they see and decide "Screw that. I'm not wasting my time. I'll go be an architect." But they're probably NOT going to do what I think they ought to do, which is to basically totally revamp weaponsmithing. IIt's a shame, too, because I think a system where you had real apprentices would make the learning process a lot of fun, actually.
Some thoughts from a well-respected (or so I'm told) Master (for about two months now).
1. This situation was forseeable. If you don't believe me read this post from almost two months ago:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=weaponsmith&message.id=10039&highlight=#M10039
2. Sorry to be trite, but there really isn't much room for casual weaponsmiths in the economy. There is plenty of room in the game, but not in the economy. Considering that full-time WS have factories are running 24/7, are constantly scanning and chatting every night about new resources, you just aren't going to compete with them, sorry.
3. Let's stop using the term "undercutting" incorrectly. Undercutting (AKA dumping) really means that you are taking a loss to hurt a competitor. I'm selling scouts at $1000, LLCs and Flamers at $5k, advanced FWGs at $2k, and you might say I'm undercutting, but in fact I'm still profiting, and you would be too at those prices. The fact that one person is selling cheaper than another but still making a profit just means the market is stabilizing. The market will be mature when financial profit (includes risk) reaches zero, and since there is little risk, it will also be the time when actual profit is near-zero.
4. The pure rules of supply and demand that people love to quote do not apply. Economics are the study of scarce and finite resources, which hardly describes the SWG realm. I'm still trying to learn about what the rules actually are, but I can definitely say that they aren't the ones from your Econ 101 textbook.
5. Despite being a master for all this time, I'm still not rich (in cash) because I spend all my money (like RL). I'm a WS because its fun to travel to a place I've never been and have someone wave to me because they are a customer I've never met. So to me if I make the same profit off 500 scouts that I would off 50, I'll make the 500.
So my advice is that anyone with a serious problem with the economy should re-evaluate why you are a WS. If its for money, then you're going down the wrong path, you're better off building an uber-BH/commando or CHand running endor missions.
wow why is this still up? i thought this died weeks ago? let it die already lol
or don't let it die ! lol i'm enjoying your guys responses actually ... i thought i was getting flamed harder heh ...
--"I'm a MASTER Weaponsmith! HA!"
"So? I am too. So's that guy over there, his brother, and their two cousins."
"Hey, what about me, I'm not a master yet."
"Well, then you're really only an soon-to-be master, once you get your grinding macro worked out and accumulate enough resources. Just make a ton of PRBs. You'll get there."
Is this really what SOE envisioned?--
this is actually my point exactly to the button! People are playing WS ONLY because they think they can make a million credits. So we got all these WS's running around hoping to make a million credits while people that want to have fun and actually PLAY WS are getting screwed by these power gamers that want to make a million credits. In a sense there are more credits in the game then there are things to buy! in EQ i have 90PP which is probably equivalent to 90,000 credits in SWG. That is how inflated the lowca economy is. Instead of creating money sinks they should be creating more weapons and more items, and more stuff to buy! There is so much to buy in EQ that there is never enough platinum. people with 500k pp can be broke again because there is always more stuff to buy.
the economy is a mess and it starts with the weaponsmiths. not that they are at fault, the devs arn't giving us enough schematics to make new stuff and for us to charge a lot for them. Weapons is by far the most demanding so it should start there i feel. That and tailors to actually once they give clothing decay though.