Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: over saturation of rare weapons
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You know, but just mentioning a 90% reduction in mission payout, you are risking life and limb. I beleive that would be the loudest cry of nerf ever heard by the SWG community. Even beyond that bawl that the, as Rev put it, ZooKeepers let out when they were told that thier pets would be permadeath. Talk about oceans of tears!!
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(it even works next to crafting stations)
You know, there's beenone thread or anotheralong these lines running almost constantly since July. Fear of future price wars, complaints about present ones. It's free market economics, plain and simple. If there's no money in it, people will leave the profession. If they're losing mopre than they're making at the low prices they sell for, they'll be forced to either raise their prices or leave the profession.
I didn't make master untilaround September 1 or so. And I had no trouble making a market for myself and continuing to sell. When someone tells me they can get it somewhere else for less than I want to sell for I simply say OK 
Like the other day, somone asked about a T21. I told him I'm asking 20k for it (the materials can make 3 lasers @10k each, so I hope to god no one buys the things). He said he knew someone selling them for under 4k. I just said OK. A T21 without stock takes about 610 resources. So, either the buyer's gonna get what he pays for ( a gun made with bazaar blow-out quality resources), or the fool WS is going to find out he has to pay 7+ cpu in the bazaar next week for the resources he sold as crafted guns at 6. Either way, someone will learn a hard lesson. Experience (as opposed to xp) is a great teacher. And markets fluctuate around equilibrium points all by themselves.
Craft, have fun, sell what you can make at what you think is fair and the invisible hand will take care of the rest.
ReverendReasons wrote:
You see, it has two faults that prevent it from truly functioning like a real economy.
1) Capital continually flows into the closed system that greatly outpaces the rate that it flows out.
2) "Innovation", the very key to the "creation" of wealth (as opposed to it's mere accumulation) is statically defined in for us in the game.
This being the case, the "invisible hand", beloved by you and I in the real world, will only push the value of money so low that it becomes meaningless as a measurement of commodity.
With prices this elastic, 1 point of damage on a weapon will be worth millions, and the weapon that is 1 point behind, worthless.
what you are defining here is inflation of the money supply, not a glut of weaponsmiths and the weapons they make- which is everyone's pet boogeyman in these threads. every mmorpg to date has had that problem and SWG is no exception. making weapons decay faster only moves the money into the hands of WS's (or any other profession that is crafting expendables). It doesn't remove it from the system. My post was not a suggestion for dealing with the inflation. I have none for that. I was merely pointing out that the supposed glut of WS's/weapons is a non-issue that will resolve itself over time.
The only thing i can think of for the inflation is to increase the 'real' money sinks for combat classes (where it goes back into the game and not to other players). But, I can already hear the howls that will be generatedby raising maintenance of structures 4-5x what it is now, so I don't see that as a viable option.
The real issue is not so much the number of weaponsmiths out there, at least not alone. And it's not even the infinite supply of money (which IS a problem and I think leads to a real lack of interaction among players). The issue at least as far as weaponsmiths are concerned is the fact that one CANNOT survive as anything BUT an expert, and can only barely eke out a living at that level. Fundamentally, you MUST become a master if you're going to be a viable participant in the economy.
And that is directly because of the following issues:
1.) Masters make better quality weapons than anyone else. Understandable, even logical. BUT....
2.) Masters make ALL the weapons better than everyone else. Which means that...
3.) Non-masters goods will ALWAYS be inferior to a master's goods, and...
4.) A large portion of the produceable goods at non-master levels are useless anyway. (Tangle pistols, Tusken rifles, anti-vehicular landmines, etc.)
Now, in ADDITION to that, when you throw in the unlimited supply of money, and the fact that all one must do is invest a bit of time to earn a chunk of money, why would anyone buy from anyone BUT a master? If masters make everything from scouts to DX2s, why would you shop anywhere else? Hell, all a pistol user really needs, or a novice pistoleer are a scout blaster, an FWG5, and maybe a DX2. People rarely buy Strikers, Tangles, SR2s, or any of the other pistols out there. When you're going up the pistol tree, most folks go CDEF, Scout, FWG5, and then DX2. Occasionally you can throw in a D18 or a DL44, but that's about it, really. The rest of the guns are overlooked largely. And that's just the pistol tree.
Now, with a shortage of really useful weapons, and an infinite supply of money, why not go to a guy who can make the best weapon possible? There's simply no reason to buy from anyone BUT a master. As a result, novices get pushed out of the economy.
My solution:
1.) Make money a little harder to come by. And I'm saying this while my main character is almost broke, and my secondary character is still a newbie looking to make money.
2.) Give weaponsmiths more useful weapons to make, and make what's out there actually useful.
3.) Kill the Tech tree. That's right. You heard me. Kill it. The Tech tree is a MAJOR source of problems in the WS trade. At the same time, bring back schematic loss. As you progress up the tree, you lose schematics. Each time you level, you lose the ability to make certain essential components. This would create real interdependency among weaponsmiths and would further a true apprenticeship system. Like the architect trade (which is, I believe, working mostly the way it should from what I hear), masters would go to novices to craft components or to make lower level items with higher level components (IE: a D18 with advanced components, but only the novice could make the actual D18).
4.) Tying into this, kill the current experimentation system. Everyone gets full points to experiment. This would be beneficial because you'd still have two different variables to control for and distinguish quality goods: the resources you craft with, and the "luck of the draw" that you find when you experiment. Thus, the key difference between masters and non-masters would be the TYPES of weapons they were able to make, not necessarily the QUALITY of the weapons that they make. Interdependency could really flourish under such a system. Lower level crafters could buy higher level components, or engage in manufacturing deals with higher level crafters (IE: I give you80% of my sales revenue and promise to go to you for training, in exchange for adv. power handlers that you make for me), and the highest level crafters would want to have an apprentice or two of different levels (IE: master can't make adv. power handlers or FWG5s anymore, so he has his apprentice make him the handlers and uses them in his DX2s, while giving a cut of the profits to the apprentice).
To me, this is a MUCH more interesting and fun system to be a part of. You can actually interact with people besides just your customers, grinding alone ceases to be the determining factor (and thus, the profession becomes INTERESTING at the lower levels), and masters would STILL be a major force (although not the ONLY game in town) in the economy. With all the high level players, there'd be PLENTY of people wanting DX2s, T21s, and assorted commando/BH weaponry for the masters to sell to. At the same time, people at lower levels could still sell scouts, DL44s, DH17 snub noses, DLT20as, etc. to the lower level players and still make money at it.
Now, I'm sure plenty of the current masters will say "NO FAIR! THAT'S A NERF!" And yes, it would be. But trust me. You WANT this nerf. Because without it, you're going to go out of business eventually. Mark my words: price wars WILL become the norm when you have more and more master smiths out there. It WILL happen. And do you know why? Because it will be the only way anyone will make any money. The market will regulate itself up to a point, but the heavily industrialized masters (people with tons of factories, harvesters, and housing maintenance to pay) will end up losing out. There will be more people selling fewer goods at lower prices, because your master-level DX2 will be only marginally different from some other guy's master level DX2, and why would someone want to pay $25K for that when they can get it for $10K? Or $8K? Or even $5K once there's enough masters? Or hell, they'll just buy 'em off the bazaar for $3K.
Trust me. When everyone's a master, being a master will be nothing special. Hell, if I was a master, I'd do this just to avoid burnout, really.
I agree with too many things said here to list them all. It does seem kind of weird that a Master would not be able to make all guns, though. People would stop at where they can make scout blaster and FGW5 and just sell those and make more money than the Master with all his special guns and Commando wepons. I think the type of damage the guns do should matter a lot more and the guns should really have varied damage. Right now it's mostly Energy and Heat damage out there. If there were mor creatures practically IMMUNE to those damages, you would suddenly see a rise in demand for those cold damage wepaons and such. Hopefully, the wide array of weapons used would make it impossible for a single person to keep track of all the resources and therefore everyone could find their niche. Also, make those Melee Wepon and Munitions trrees worth while... I did actually get someone asking for mines for their base. Hopefully with Player Cities the Overt PAs will make a bunch of bases and increase the demand for mines, which almost nobody makes right now.
Another thing that currently distinguishes different Masters: the extra experimentation points you get from clothing enhancements or something. I still don't know if this is true or rumor only. Someone claimed the maximum Weponsmith Experimentation value is 100, giving you the experimentation points the Master gets. If these enhcancements were more common and there truly was a cap on the number of experimentation points you would have, that would level things, as Novice - Expert WS could get the same experimentation points as Master - with the enhancements.
I ahve heard that there is some quest that gives Armorsmiths a new armor schematic. If that is true, and if there is some quest that gives WS a new gun to make, that would be another distinction between Masters.
Oh, as for the grind, all I can say is, right now it is true and it kind of sucks. Get a mouse with auto-fire or a joystick with auto-fire or something. Don't let the devs turn you into a mouse clicking monkey 
I'm glad I found this thread. I've been grinding through the weaponsmith tree for my PA. Everybody knows I'm the weaponsmith, but what they don't realize is I will never be able to make anytthing that is any good until I grind through the ENTIRE tree. I've been thinking about how much this sucks, and it's nice to know everyone else has been too.
However... I wonder if not part of the problem here is that it is so easy to just automate the process of getting to Master WS. With the right macro it is insanely easy and quick to get up the tree. I wouldn't even think of being a weaponsmith if I had to do it "by hand".
Regards,
Sisi Ete, Sunrunner
Well, yes, simply saying "Ok, masters can only make these weapons" wouldn't be enough of a solution. Viable and useable weapons would have to be available at ALL levels of crafting and use. And you could still make better versions of them with advanced parts. IE: an advanced power handler would provide much better quality goods than a regular power handler. So putting an advanced one into a DL44, for example, would significantly boost its output. The benefit of this would bemasters could maybe make master level components, and sell them to lower level players for incorporation into their guns.
As for it being weird that masters not be able to make every gun, yes, from the current standpoint it would be. On the other hand, you could think of it as them having moved beyond that. The various levels of crafting would be more about selling particular TYPES of goods than about selling particular QUALITY goods. Quality would come exclusively from experimentation and resources. Thus, you'd still see variation, and dedicated players could still excell and distinguish their goods (IE: "Only the FINEST copper isused in MY guns."), but you wouldn't have the situation we have now, which is where novice-expert crafters are basically excluded from the marketplace.
It'd basically be like Architects, only modified. If I'm not mistaken, a Master Architect can make every structure craftable. However, only a master can make PA halls or other larger structures. I'd change this so that only masters could make certain goods, but that would be all that they'd be able to make. I'd included master level components, though, which could be used in ALL goods. Thus, there'd be an incentive for lower level crafters to buy from masters (and masters would have an incentive to take on apprentices and thereby increase their market share -- by selling lower level weaponry that their apprentices craft).
Think of it this way. Masters get to make DX2s, T21s, Elite Carbines, and other specialist weapons. but those are the only WEAPONS they can make. However, masters CAN make master-level components that are useable in all weapons. Thus, it becomes mutually beneficial for a master to have, say, four apprentices: one apprentice per level of crafting (novice, up through expert). At each level, the players would be able to craft the specific weapons and only those weapons, and at the next level, you'd "forget" the older weapons. You could make your own components, but just going it alone would be inadvisable (In that your components would be inferior -- but only marginally so -- to master level components). The enterprising master would take on an apprentice at each level and bring them along, providing them with components in exchange for a proportion of their sales revenues.
So, I'd sell to Able (the novice), Baker (the FA1 player), Charlie (the FA2 player), Dave (the FA3 player), and Eugene (the FA4/expert player) my master-level power handlers. Once Eugene had enough XP, I'd send him on his way and let him take on his own apprentices. Actually, so as to give Eugene a chance, you'd want the goods that Able, Baker, and Charlie make to only be able to use Expert crafted goods (so as to encourage them to set up a relationship with Eugene). Dave and Eugene could use master crafted goods, and there you'd have it. A nice little apprentice/journeyman/master system.
The apprentices make goods using journeyman components, the journeymen make goods with master components, and the masters supply the journeymen and make their own goods. Thus, each level of the economy would depend (ideally) on the next highest level, and no one group would be able to corner the market the way you can currently. Masters would sell to their portion of the population, Journeymen to their portion, and apprentices to theirs. As the customers advanced, likely, so too would the crafters (although the crafters would probably move a bit slower, but there's probably more customers than crafters out there anyway) and hopefully, you'd achieve relative parity in terms of advancement, while still keeping all levels economically viable. Not just economically viable, but actually dependent upon each other. If you wanted to run the ultimate gun emporium, you'd need to have a stable of different level smiths to make all the guns. you'd need your apprentices to make things like D18s, DL44s, etc., and you'd need journeyment to make Power5s, FWG5s, etc.
Of course the other side of this would be actually making ALL the weapons useful (which might entail upping their stats or changing resists on the mobs out there -- notice how most of 'em are vulnerable to acid or heat, if they're vulnerable to anything? How often do you see a kinetic damage only critter?), so that there'd be more than just, say, three or four weapons sold per profession (IE: three common weapons for riflemen, three or four for pistoleers, four for carbiniers, etc.).
Not that I expect anything to really be done about this, mind you. I'm sure it'll be much easier to just ignore this issue until the economy is well and truly screwed, and we have master weaponsmiths selling high quality armament on the bazaar. Even then, I wonder if anything would change. It seems that both SOE and a fair portion of the crafting community is pretty entrenched in the current system that some of us feel is so inherently flawed.
I don't see that as really an issue. If the WS profession allowed you to survive economically at lower levels, I think fewer people would feel the need to grind. The reason people grind now is to make all the guns and make them at the best quality. The only other reason they might have would be bragging rights. I'm not saying there wouldn't be grinding with the system I proposed, but I do think it'd be less necessary.
Right now, your options are grind or give up. The other way, you could opt to grind, or you could just apprentice yourself. Personally, if I had the option, I'd apprentice myself. More personal interaction that way, as well as more ability to make money.
With all due respect the idea of killing experimentation is the worst idea I have ever heard.
All you'll do is kill the profession. All some folks would need to do is spend a small premium on novice weaponsmith and get a few boxes in firearms. Or the melee types can get novice and few boxes in melee. And make their own. The only advantage of going master then will be to get the master schematics which is a tiny part of the market.
I realise you're frustrated with the system as it is but this is not the solution. You will be a master eventually - you can't tell me you'd like to have all your work count for nothing. The ultimate reward for master in most crafting type professions is the ability to make things better than others. If experimentation went, tell me what the benefit is to being master, I mean really really. Having more schematics isn't enough. I wonder how armoursmiths would like it if I could get novice armoursmith for 6 points and spend 9 points to get to the first deflectors and can max experiment it out right away. Heck - if I went and spend the 14 points I'd make Mk3s like the best of them. Just a measly 20 skill points and I can tinker the best deflectors with maximum experimentation? No. Bad. Bad, bad, bad idea. Same applies to weaponsmiths.
I agree some diversification would be nice - maybe higher level weapon making specialist skills - but killing the tech tree and experimentation is just sheerly insane. All you're doing is ruining the profession that way. I say again, I know that is sucks to be an under master weaponsmith - I've been there - but this is NOT a well thought out idea. Never once in my time before master did I think I deserve to be par with the masters - they've done their time and paid their dues. I knew I had to do the same. You have to become the best before you have a shot. It's not the best situation but I honestly don't see how to fix it unless they truly split weapon making types into different trees. But did I mention killing experimentation was a lousy idea? 
Pragmatous, you should not expect people with better skills to not outsell you. Its like whining that the pretty girl down the street chose a smarter, better looking guy than you are.
However, you CAN make your own market. How? Simplify, Simplify, Simplify.
Master Wepsmiths constantly get overwhelmed with the sheer amount of resources and time consuming factory runs to stock all kinds of weapons.. the result usually is they stock a few amount of them at rather high prices (compared to COST to make that is).
You, 'the little guy', must create your own market. Make the one thing that the master's usually cant supply in enough quantities and sell it ata lower price.
What weapons could you possibly make that a master cant make better and sell just as cheap? Commando weapons. Grenades, Particle Cannons.. EXPENDABLE WEAPONS.
By narrowing down you own products and catering to a select clientele that you know need to constantly supply themselves with such weapons cuts down your costs dramatically... you dont have to spend hours just trying to acquire the resources to make all types of weapons..just the ones needed to make a certain few.
Most commando expendable weapons use the same components, so you save even more time with your factory runs.
Open your shop, advertise that you sell good, inexpensive grenades or particle cannons (depending on which tree you went up in). The min/max damage difference and spd difference between those you make and those a master makes is not really noticable. Plus if a master wepsmith sells a particle cannon of 5.5 spd 1200-2200 damage for 15k (thats what they charge in bria) with 30 charges and you sell yours 6.0 spd 1000-2000 damage for 6 or 7k with 28 charges... you can pretty much bet commandos will be buying TWO of yours vs 1 of the master wepsmiths.
And the master wepsmiths usually dont bother competing with you since they are too busy making the more expensive, non-consumable weapons.
So yes, the 'little guy' does have his market. You just got to be smart enough to find it or whiny enough to have someone tell you what it is in a forum.
I thought a bit about it and found a simple solution.
Here are the facts:
1. We all seem to agree, that the main problem is, that experimentation means anything for a good weapon (besides the resources, but thats not skill specific).
2.Problem is, that the Novice Weaopnsmith gets 1 Experimentation Point, expert gets 6 and Master gets 9, thats a 900% increase opposed to Novice and 50% to expert.
So what about changing the boni you get with the Techniques Line ?
My proposal is:
Novice: Experimentation +30
Crafting Techniques I: Experimentation +15
Crafting Techniques II: Experimentation +15
Crafting Techniques III: Experimentation +10
Crafting Techniques IV: Experimentation +10
Master: Experimentation +10
This results in the novice getting 3 experimentation points, with crafting II you get 6, with expert 8 and with Master the 9 you got before, but the scaling is much better. Bonus to Weapon Crafting should stay the same.
An expert Crafter would then can experiment nearly as good as a Master, resulting in nearly the same quality weapons. Even Novice Weapons would be much better than before.
The benefit for getting Master is now not extraordinary better experimentation, but getting new Schematics and bonus to crafting, hopefully resulting in fewer Failures. The one point in experimentation could be the edge to create the unique weapon a master is know for.
Pros of this solution
1. Very simple change (I would assume change in one DB-Table, made in less than 5 minutes for Devs)
2. Nobody gets "nerfed", Masters stay basicly the same (no Schematics drops or other restrictions as in other ideas to fix the problem).
3. You can create viable weapons with some skill in crafting techniques and even novice creates much better weapons. Expert Smiths now have a market chance.
4. Non-Master Weaponsmiths can start creating Weapons on an earlier stage of their training, sell them and engage in the Weaponcrafting trade much earlier (and have more fun I assume, no more extensive Grinding)
Contras:
1. Masters are not the only to create good weapons, the market for expert or lower weapons is now open. So everybody who is now master gets more competition.
But you now not need to be a master and therefore I predict a drop in Masters, because you can skill one or two lines up, depending on what you want to craft and drop the other lines, so Master Weaponcrafter gets
more unique and you will get a better market for high-level weapons.
Any comments on this ? I will post it also in the enhancements Thread, hopefully that the correspondent has a look on it and if it is a liable solution for the Weaponsmith Community sends it to the devs.