Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Weaponsmith Bug and Repair Discussion: Crafting CL
That's hogwash and you know it. When I stop my speeder in an empty area, and then a a lair with it's standard 3 red creatures spawn right on top of me a couple of seconds afterwards, how exactly is that my fault? I guess it's possible you've never experienced anything like that happening, but that would make you a very rare exception indeed.
Mor-Dan wrote:
if you get incapped by an aggressive creature, it is your fault for getting their range.
The situation outlined above happens all the time, and for a CL1 character it will most likely mean instant death. The creatures will attack practically immediately. They'll score a hit, and the crafter is incapped. Once he gets back up, he's still in the same spot, and so he'll get attacked again, and once more be incapped by a single hit. This will also happen the third time he gets up, and we all know what three incaps mean.
Message Edited by Ferrek on 06-21-2005 04:38 PM
Ferrek wrote:That's hogwash and you know it. When I stop my speeder in an empty area, and then a a lair with it's standard 3 red creatures spawn right on top of me a couple of seconds afterwards, how exactly is that my fault? I guess it's possible you've never experienced anything like that happening, but that would make you a very rare exception indeed.
Mor-Dan wrote:
if you get incapped by an aggressive creature, it is your fault for getting their range.
you know, everytime i have died to this point has been my fault, and i can say that about every toon i have. seriously, this system is perfectly workable for a crafter on starter planets. if you are talking about non-starter planets, well, you shouldn't be adventuring out there without help or combat skills.
and remember, these are my personal views and opinions. i am representing to the Devs what you want, not what i think it best.
Ferrek wrote:
That's hogwash and you know it. When I stop my speeder in an empty area, and then a a lair with it's standard 3 red creatures spawn right on top of me a couple of seconds afterwards, how exactly is that my fault? I guess it's possible you've never experienced anything like that happening, but that would make you a very rare exception indeed.
Mor-Dan wrote:
if you get incapped by an aggressive creature, it is your fault for getting their range.
The situation outlined above happens all the time, and for a CL1 character it will most likely mean instant death. The creatures will attack practically immediately. They'll score a hit, and the crafter is incapped. Once he gets back up, he's still in the same spot, and so he'll get attacked again, and once more be incapped by a single hit. This will also happen the third time he gets up, and we all know what three incaps mean.
Message Edited by Ferrek on 06-21-2005 04:38 PM
I would have to say this happens to most of us. Stop in a open area and nothing is there, but all of a sudden we are surrounded by red agro a few seconds later. All it takes is 1 hit to incap us, even on starter planets. This can't possibly our fault.
All we ask is enough time to get out of situations like that. Sure, let us get hit a few times but allow us the ability to stay on our vehicle and ride away before taking the last blow.
Force experiment to count towards points! 17pt guns ftw!
CorenLanra wrote:
I think there really shouldn't be changes to the CL of a pure crafter. There is an easy solution that could be implemented, and also this would help fund artisans and DE's depending on how they implemented this.
What do we need this "protection" for? Placing harvesters. There really is no reason why we would need a higher CL if we could this safely. Of course this ability should not be freely given. I suggest since we can already survey resources from vehicles, and I believe we can place harvs also, let us have a vehicle that protects us. Now this won't be a tank, and will take damage from mobs, possible higher hitpoints than swoops etc. While inside this vehicle the user is not damaged from the attacks until the vehicle sustains enough damage and becomes disabled. Master Artisan's could craft the vehicle and DE's could craft the armor for it, and this would be repairable at the standard garage. This adds another money sink and people aren't "given" things for free.
Personally my char is CL 54 and can hold his own quite well, I don't thikn that my CL54 char should magically be cl 64 or 74 or 80 because I have a crafting mastery. I chose not to go full crafter, and others choose to be full crafters and CL1.
This is not all of the problem. I can admin and use my Combat char to service harvs. What is the problem is the constant spawn on and around factories. At least twice a day I will have a mutant rat warp on top of me..because of the houses around. I don't even have a chance to see them coming. Same for Demons and most NPCs, and they are NOT red dots. Same with standing in Bestine at the Bazarre term and having some evil whatsis gank you while all the screens are up. I dont want to win.. just live long enough to run.
I can accept the risk of harv placing. What is annoying is the risk to change a schematic, pull crates, and generally just stand in my yard. I have a good probot.. he stands there and looks at my incapped self all the time. One shot hit incap will not even kick in thier guard function.
A vehicle like that would solve very little of the problem, and if you are at CL54 you dont really know the whole extent of the problem. Armored vehicle isnt a lot different than allowing us Armor period.
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To be absolutely fair, you can get aggroed by yellow cons. If you have enough negative faction, say thug faction, even yellow cons will aggro on you.
It sounds to me like one of the problems here is lag. My setup is on Talus on Bria and lag there is pretty tame. On Tat, it's brutal. I could see how someone could look out and think the coast is clear, then suddenly feel like a sea of red is all around you. Typically, structures appear first, then MOBs. I'm not sure there is a good way to fix this. It would be easy to tell people to move to a less populated area, but I know in many cases that is just not practical. I dunno. I've always thought there ought to be a way to fence off areas. Maybe if we could fence off longstanding structures - say something that had been there a month or more. Then it wouldn't affect most harvesters, but would afford protection for factories and houses. Scale it so that it would keep yard trash out - CL 14 and below. Above that, a MOB could break the fence depending on it's CL. A Krayt could walk right over it, but it would take a CL 30 Tusken a minute to do so. This would give you your "getaway" time without making an area totally safe.
I would support the idea of a lightly armored vehicle. Use the one with the domed top. A Master Artisan could give you light armor. An armorsmith could give you a PSG style attachment. And you could use the 2nd seat to install a probot or R2 style droid who could either give you temporary shielding or a warning shot style of fire that would, again, allow you "getaway" time.
But I am dead set against awarding CL to crafters.
Ferrek wrote:
You're reasoning on the definition that CL = combat-skills. That's not the case - combat skills come through skillmodifiers and weapon specials, the combat level itself does not grant you any combat-skills. So crafters wanting combat levels doesn't equal combatants asking for experimentation-points, because experimentation-points are awarded through the experimentation-skills, which again are awarded through the chosen skillbox.
Levels are artificially added on top of the system proper and currently serve only two purposes: limit people in the choice of weaponry, and allow mobs to deal more damage to lower-level characters and less damage to higher-level characters. The level itself does not grant you any combat-skills. How good are the combat-skills of a medic or a doctor? Not very - they too need some kind of offensive profession to be able to be viable in combat, but they still get combat levels from their choice of skills.
As I've already said - removing the damage multiplier based on CL will go a long way towards fixing the issue. If they did that, crafters wouldn't need combat-levels since they would no longer get one-hit incapped. But if the devs refuse to do this, then the only other thing one can do is to remove "combat level" and re-define it as "level", and let everyone gain them, just like all other level-based systems work.
Before the CU there were still combat levels, but they were invisible and were awarded differently, e.g. your level would increase when you equipped a weapon you were skilled with. The main difference in the combat-system now is the damage multipliers. Those are the core of the problem, and in my opinion (as if it's not obvious by now) they should be removed alltogether.
QFE
Great post. This sums it up. CL is a somewhat silly system in the first place, and this artificially low CL (and consequent multipliers) for crafters just exacerbates the problem.
Mor-Dan wrote:
i have never been attacked by a yellow (passive) dot on my screen, only red ones. i have never had a regular durni as a red dot, always yellow. anything you see that is red you should be striving to avoid, not getting in aggro range. if you get incapped by an aggressive creature, it is your fault for getting their range. if you get incapped by a yellow, then it is either your fault for attacking them, or there is a bug we need to be discussing...
as for starter planets, most of what will be around you should be CL10 or less, and what isn't i am hoping wil be fixed with the refacing of the planets. get a CH to train you a CL10 or CL12 or whatevel level it is you can have as a non-CH and train it to attack, and group with it when you go out. then see a DE and a droid for the same purpose. you are now a 3-man group and have plenty of firepower to handle a CL6 mob, and the others will hold the aggro. there are ways to work around this, but as i have always said, i will support what my community wants, unless of course it is just ridiculous like everyone wants 12 points at master or something like that.
Message Edited by Mor-Dan on 06-21-2005 01:13 PM
Can we all get 12 points at master? 
Will that make me a 14-point WS with my tapes? 
Truthfully, I just think they should take away the damage multipliers for the level differences, or start them at 25-30 levels higher, and not 3-4. I hate getting incapped by those diseased vrelts that always seem to spawn right around my shop. I really don't think that we should get combat levels without spending points in combat trees (of course, I don't think doctor should either, but that is another discussion). I do believeif they would get rid of the damage multipliers, though, it would allow us a chance to get away on a bike before we were incapped, at least on the starter planets.
agree - i tried cl1 tripple crafter during the respec - got nasty byut was just about manageable with a good droid.
i respeced back to my current template though as soon as i could. CL 54 = no problems anywhere but dath and yavin really.
its all about choices - i could be a pure crafter and have all the -ve stuff that comes with it.. - or i could be a hybrid and survive doing both.
Personally i like this template - as it gives me a great way to advertise - spam "open duel challenge - who can incap the weaponsmith - 50k reward" at busy starports and them mail your wpt to your shop to those level 80's you incap in 3 shots using your krayted weapons .
it comes down to player choice - if your fed up of triple incaps - go get enough of a combat prof to survive on your own.
A'ru
what about getting the aggro system adjusted so that cl1 charactersare not aggro'ed unless they attack first,much the same way that mobs are not supposed to aggro higher lvl players if they are much lower lvl.
this would remove the need for adding any skills to double crafters, but at the same time would increase the crafter survivability.
if needs be for realism or challenge potential it could be made in such a way that only mobs below cl40 dont aggro and for mobs higher than that lvl we could use the cammo kits. this way we would know what planets are fairly safe and what planets we would need cammo kits for.
as it stands the devs suggestion of grouping with players or pets is not very viable. I had a probot made at max lvl of 30. I was grouped with it while checking my harvs but was attacked by a cl15 pirate. my droid attacked and only knocked off half of the pirates health before it and me were both dead.
Gawzeera wrote:what about getting the aggro system adjusted so that cl1 charactersare not aggro'ed unless they attack first,much the same way that mobs are not supposed to aggro higher lvl players if they are much lower lvl.
this would remove the need for adding any skills to double crafters, but at the same time would increase the crafter survivability.
if needs be for realism or challenge potential it could be made in such a way that only mobs below cl40 dont aggro and for mobs higher than that lvl we could use the cammo kits. this way we would know what planets are fairly safe and what planets we would need cammo kits for.
as it stands the devs suggestion of grouping with players or pets is not very viable. I had a probot made at max lvl of 30. I was grouped with it while checking my harvs but was attacked by a cl15 pirate. my droid attacked and only knocked off half of the pirates health before it and me were both dead.
How would it be fair on CL 2, CL 3, CL 5 etc etc if CL 1 don't get agro?