Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Weaponsmith Bug and Repair Discussion: Crafting CL
Second, many cities don't want factories inside the city limits, either because it makes things look cluttered, or because the space available for placing structures is limited and needs to be saved for houses, or both.
And third - this isn't the real world, it's a game - a game for which we all pay to play, and even suggesting that those who choose to play it in a certain way shouldn't be allowed to see more than the small percentage of the game world that constitutes the cities, is just plain silly.
But if you insist on bringing any real world comparison into the picture, you should at the least go all the way so you'll avoid hypocrisy. In the real world, anyone can wear a suit of armour as long as it fits them physically, and anyone can pick up any kind of gun, point it away from themselves and pull the trigger, or pick up a sword or a pole and swing it towards someone else. They may not hit anything, but they sure as hell have a chance of hitting something, especially if it's big enough and moving slowly or not at all. Also in the real world, if a crocodile bites a man he'll probably loose a limb or worse, regardless of wether he's a librarian, a jeweler or a battle-hardened war veteran.
But this isn't the real world, and I think we're all thankfull of that. It's a game we play to have fun, and the current situation with crafters getting one hit incapped when they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, seriously takes away from the fun. Just removing the damage-multipliers would help a lot towards eliminating this as a problem, because that's the main difference between pre-CU and current situation in this case. Before the CU, a mob that hit delivered X amount of damage regardless of who he was hitting. That's why it wasn't such a problem before - if someone attacked you, you had a chance to get away before you were incapped/killed. Now you don't.
As for the "you can choose to pick up combat skills" argument - sure, one can do that. The same argument applies to every other profession though, so if we all stick with that, this game has no balance-issues worth mentioning, and any problem the rifleman or BH or commando has isn't relevant - he can always choose to take up a different profession and eliminate his issues that way. It's the exact same thing, but strangely enough nobody uses that argument in those cases. I wonder why.
Ferrek wrote:
As for the "you can choose to pick up combat skills" argument - sure, one can do that. The same argument applies to every other profession though, so if we all stick with that, this game has no balance-issues worth mentioning, and any problem the rifleman or BH or commando has isn't relevant - he can always choose to take up a different profession and eliminate his issues that way. It's the exact same thing, but strangely enough nobody uses that argument in those cases. I wonder why.
Apples and Oranges. More accurate would be to compare it to an MBH/Master Rifleman Artisan-1000 who complains that thepowerups they make are crappy. You wouldn't argue that a double combat master should get master level experimental points. You get CL ratings by combat experience just as you get experimental points through artisan experience. I see no logic whatsoever in giving crafters CL ratings they have not earned. Therefore, the reasoning stands. If you want a better CL, pick up combat skills. I sacrifice the ability to pick up master Merchant or Shipwright by keeping 0030 Pistoleer. The tradeoff is I get a CL that keeps me alive in most situations on starter planets. We all have choices to make.
There are many things I cannot so post CU that I could before - on both my WS and my combat alt. Before the CU, my WS could solo virtually any creature on Talus with my composite armor, stim B's and food buffs. Now there are tons of MOBs I have to avoid. My Master Commando could waltz through the Warren solo without fear of dying. Now I have to be very selective about what I solo even though he's a level 76 MBH/Smuggler. You can take any profession in the game and find that there is a pretty long list of stuff that they can't do now that they could do pre CU.
I have yet to see any persuasive argument that things should be any different. Bottom line is that there are things people can do to avoid or alleviate the situation they are in. But in many cases, these things are inconvenient. But that's still no reason to change the way CL are used. I may not like the level system (I argued against on the TC forums before the CU was implemented. Fat lot of good that did), but I have learned to adapt to it. But like I stated before, the thing that bothers me most is that there are many professions that want to absorb traits from other profs - just because. Combat types want to craft their own weapons. Crafters want combat skills. I have a bad feeling as to where this will end up.
Levels are artificially added on top of the system proper and currently serve only two purposes: limit people in the choice of weaponry, and allow mobs to deal more damage to lower-level characters and less damage to higher-level characters. The level itself does not grant you any combat-skills. How good are the combat-skills of a medic or a doctor? Not very - they too need some kind of offensive profession to be able to be viable in combat, but they still get combat levels from their choice of skills.
As I've already said - removing the damage multiplier based on CL will go a long way towards fixing the issue. If they did that, crafters wouldn't need combat-levels since they would no longer get one-hit incapped. But if the devs refuse to do this, then the only other thing one can do is to remove "combat level" and re-define it as "level", and let everyone gain them, just like all other level-based systems work.
Before the CU there were still combat levels, but they were invisible and were awarded differently, e.g. your level would increase when you equipped a weapon you were skilled with. The main difference in the combat-system now is the damage multipliers. Those are the core of the problem, and in my opinion (as if it's not obvious by now) they should be removed alltogether.
I don't want to win.. just get away. My house is 30m away from my factories and I dont make it. I'm on the outskirts of a Player town on a noob planet, Tatooine. I get wiped up by the crap that spawns in bestine at Level 1, Ive learned to only use the bank Bazaare terms.. its the only safe place.
as far as armor goes I would be ecstatic with 1000 resists. again, I just want to get away.. the three incaps are ruining comps and products like tools and repair kits. Stinks to get spawned on by some group of level 4 NPCs with a pack full of craft tools you just pulled and have a 3 incap decay them all.
whats funnier still is two level 13 Demons can mop the floor with my level "30" -cough- probot. Same npcs can one shot a 98% X-34 too. I try to stay in the car to do harvs and surveying.. lets just say Ive left a pile of burning wrecks and trip incapped anyway.
a small amount of CL would go a long way.. and still not open combat content to us, and thats all I want.
Well seeing how you picked that out lets review it. I never said I was attacking them did I? I said getting incapped by them and theres a big difference in attacking versus getting incapped in one shot by a low level mob whiletrying to check on harvs. What is "dumb" as you say is having a low level mob hit me for over 1k because it's a few levels above me with the great damage multiplier. Whats "dumb" is keeping most of your pure crafters at level 1while you know everything is gurantteed to be your level and higher whereveryou go and with the damage multiplier making sure you dont even have a chance to do anything but flop to the ground=incap with one shot.
And no I wasnt getting incapped or killed in the old system because we had a choice on wearing armor and getting buffs before going out to do a drop, maint, or whatever. The difference now is with damage multipliers nobody has a chance anymore, theres no skill or stragey or planning ahead, it's an auto incap from just about everything a level 1 crafter is gonna come up against.
I'm sure nobodyexpected to to solo the DWB as a pure crafter but I also expect they didn't plan on having to worry about getting incapped on their doorstep by a Valarians Thug in one shoteither and know they would neverhave a chance to do even attempt to defend themselves. And "crafters were meant to remain in a city", are you kidding me? Sure I'll be down for that, right after Cities are expanded x10 in size for all my factories/harvsand all the resources that spawn are found in 90% concentrations and it starts raining gumdrops. Untill then like everyone else I'll be travelling the 'starter' planets surveying and stocking my vendors trying to avoid incaps from about anything im gonna come accross. Workarounds for bad game design doesn't = problem solved.
And for the record I have a second account with a lvl 80 character and friends/guildies who like to help out but not everyone has that option. And yes a simple grouping with a lvl 80 friend, for thelvl 80 defenses,I can still do solo drops on Dath, Endor, ect ect but again workarounds for bad game design doesn't = problem solved and not everyone has that option. I have yet to be killed on my crafter, taken some incaps, but there is nothing'fun and exciting' or 'entertaining' about the poorly implemented combat level system for crafters where at best the mobs I meet will be my level and at worst hit me for 5k in one shot.
This may seem a harsh post but for a honestreply to your original post I find my statements taken out of context and called 'dumb' for something I never said, meant, or intended. I said "getting incapped by a durni andother 'savage' creaturesis lame" and it always will be. I thought it would be obvioius thatifI'd getincapped accross the land by everything i could meetI probably wouldn't go out attacking things but then again maybe not. Let me put it this way,
As a full grown humanoid in a online game getting 1-2 hit incapped by a butterfly, rabbit, or similar mobs is lame. I can see getting beat, and not in 1 hit, by other humanoid creatures who are lvl 18-22. I couldagree withbeing 1 hit killed by a rancor, a nightsister, and similar mobs. I can't agree with and never will where game dynamics dictates I might actully have to leave the safety of my house to perform my profession duties but yet through baddesign changes get smoked in one shot by anything I might encounter no matter the location.
Could give crafters a level system that only effects what mobs con at. They can't use any weapons that require a lvl higher than 1, but when out n about those pesky kreetles won't kill you in one hit. Double crafter = effective lvl 80. Similar to when you are a low level char in a high level group, you look like you are lvl 80 to the mobs, but you are really only 1 or whatever.
I like the idea of giving crafters the ability to use some armor, but not be any good at fighting in it.
I'm nota crafter atm, butI have been in the past, and my alt will be in the future.
As an Aside here, just to be friendly and help out the crafters on the servers I play on.
If you are a WS on either Wanderhome, or Sunrunner please call on me for assistance anytime I'm on...unless I'm in the middle of something very important which I'll explain when you /t me, I'll head on over and clear out mobs for ya.
you can reach me at either of these addresses lol
Jorguus -- Sunrunner
Kelvik -- Wanderhome
If i'm on feel free to page me, i'm cl 80 so nothing is too big for me to handle unless you put your factory next to a gorax or krayt dragon...or maybe one of those cl 120 fambaas lol.
Mor-Dan wrote:
i dunno about any of you guys, but i died just as easily in the old system if i went where i knew the creatures were stronger than me. aside from now actually KNOWING what creature CLs are, i don't see much of a diffrence. no combat, no armour, and no buffs, if i got attacked by an aggressive butterfly, i was going to get incapped, period. this non-sense about being incapped by durni's... if you are dumb enough to attack something 3 or 4 CLs above you that is yellow (passive) and con's this new pink-ish red color, then you deserve your comeupence. crafters were meant to remain in a city, not galavant across the country side. you want to stay alive? keep your factories and houses in city limits, and take clearing forces with you to lay harvesters. if you have harvesting fields, give someone else admin to maintain them for you. there are a million ways to make this work, but few want to accept the idea of leaving it alone and playing it as though it were real life and you have no choice.
as for starter planets, most of what will be around you should be CL10 or less, and what isn't i am hoping wil be fixed with the refacing of the planets. get a CH to train you a CL10 or CL12 or whatevel level it is you can have as a non-CH and train it to attack, and group with it when you go out. then see a DE and a droid for the same purpose. you are now a 3-man group and have plenty of firepower to handle a CL6 mob, and the others will hold the aggro. there are ways to work around this, but as i have always said, i will support what my community wants, unless of course it is just ridiculous like everyone wants 12 points at master or something like that.
Message Edited by Mor-Dan on 06-21-2005 01:13 PM