Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Resource gating on bloodfin
cwhooks wrote:
I'm sorry to hear that you have a reading comprehension problem. To make it easier, I'll summarize a few points...
Nice. Oldest trick in the book, can't win a logical argument, start throwing insults.
Some basic components are better than their advanced components (blaster rifle barrles). This is an inherent problem with resource gating. In the case of the basic component, the non named resources gives you a wide enough range to avoid resource gating.
BRB is not better than ABRB. It's better in some area, worse in others. Sometimes under certain conditions, an ABRB is always better than a BRB. Saying a BRB is better than ABRB is not completely true. BPH is faster than ABPH. So that's better too, right?
Developers imply that resource gating is working and that the problem is most likely a cause of not having a good resource spawn yet. Given my study was over 6 months (8 months now) and the problem still persists... There is a problem... If you can not get resources good enough in 8 months to make an advance component better than it's basic, then there is a fundemental flaw in the system.
IF this was true, then yes, there is a problem. Ok, so there's a problem with the advanced barrels in that they're not significantly better than the regular version, compared to all the other advanced components, but that problem lies specifically with the advanced barrels themselves, not with resource gating in general. T21 and Republic Blaster are both heavily dependant on heavily gated resources, yet both are still considered the best weapons in their class. So.... resource gating is a problem here too, right? No. There is no problem with resource gating.
Lack of information. If the gatign limits were documented for earch resource type (subtype?) it would provide new players with enough information to quickly judge and rate resources. It would also allow for more professional and information communication between developers and the community.
There may be a need for more information to be given out by devs, but definitely not for the reasons you've given out. So the devs come out tomorrow and say that there is a cap for copper SR at 800, a cap for aluminum CD at 800, etc. How is that going to make us play any differently? There is nothing to judge and rate between the different type of resources. Rhodium Steel at 20 CD and 570 SR is obviously better than Carbonite Steel at 600 CD and 900 SR for the advanced barrels because you can only use the Rhodium and not the Carbonite. You only need to start comparing when another Rhodium at 25 CD and 560 SR comes out, and here gating doesn't come into play at all.
The only reason for publishing the cap limits is to make sure that all the resource spawns have been within intended limits.
Currently gating happens at to many places to get a clear pictures of system interaction. You have gates on the actual schematic, on components on resources and with our tools and skills. The complex web of interactions makes it extremely difficult to balance anything, let alone determine where the problem really lies. It also is an system that encourages side effects (i.e. chaning one thing has a ripple effect on other systmes and items).
The problem, if there is one, isn't as complex as you make it out to be. Tools don't come into play here. Skills affect it a little, but mostly, it falls down to the resources and schematic. If there is a problem, it's very easy to fix it under the current system. Change the schematic. No extremely difficult and complex rebalancing job, since only one thing was changed. It's a molehill.. not a mountain.
Is resource gating *the* problem. No, it is really just a component of *a* problem in which we are only able to see the symptoms. By removing resource gatign we simplify the problem and move towards an more abstract system that is more intuitive. Having the name resources would stull be viable as it increase variablility due to spawning issues (and further gating due to spawn patterns).
Removing resource gating isn't going to do anything here. Ok, it's going to make a lot of weapons better. That's your solution to this problem of yours? Make everything better? We're only going to end up with a lot of weapons that the devs are going to consider overpowered. Right. Just what we need.
The only reason you're saying resource gating is a problem and need to be removed is because you don't like it.
stryfex03 wrote:
cwhooks wrote:
I'm sorry to hear that you have a reading comprehension problem. To make it easier, I'll summarize a few points...
Nice. Oldest trick in the book, can't win a logical argument, start throwing insults.
Not an insult and observation.
Some basic components are better than their advanced components (blaster rifle barrles). This is an inherent problem with resource gating. In the case of the basic component, the non named resources gives you a wide enough range to avoid resource gating.
BRB is not better than ABRB. It's better in some area, worse in others. Sometimes under certain conditions, an ABRB is always better than a BRB. Saying a BRB is better than ABRB is not completely true. BPH is faster than ABPH. So that's better too, right?
My BRB are equal in damage and faster in speed than the ABRB. i.e. better
Developers imply that resource gating is working and that the problem is most likely a cause of not having a good resource spawn yet. Given my study was over 6 months (8 months now) and the problem still persists... There is a problem... If you can not get resources good enough in 8 months to make an advance component better than it's basic, then there is a fundemental flaw in the system.
IF this was true, then yes, there is a problem. Ok, so there's a problem with the advanced barrels in that they're not significantly better than the regular version, compared to all the other advanced components, but that problem lies specifically with the advanced barrels themselves, not with resource gating in general. T21 and Republic Blaster are both heavily dependant on heavily gated resources, yet both are still considered the best weapons in their class. So.... resource gating is a problem here too, right? No. There is no problem with resource gating.
RB and t21 are popular because of their higher AP over other weapons in their class. In the case of the t21, I have several rifles that are better in everything but AP.... As for the RB, I can beat it with speed and min damage, but I onyl have the Launcher pistol that does more max dam.... However, my Polonium is worse than my plumbum for CO+OQ. Polonium is 500 rated, plumbum is 600 rated.
To give you an idea on the rifle situation here are some stats:
t21 139/368 dam 7.2 speed 0 ideal 39/33/71 HAM AP heavy Energy
JIR 129/231 dam 5.8 speed3 ideal 13/28/45 HAMAP light Stun
DXR 192/361 dam 5.8 speed 93 ideal 66/71/96 HAM AP Medium Acid
Laser 85/450 dam speed 6.0 56 ideal 45/54/91 HAM AP Medium Energy
Tusken 186/271 dam 6.0 speed 40 ideal 11/20/47 HAM AP light Energy
Also the scale rate for eff% is not linear. Play with say a scout blaster. Use different alum with various ratign to see what happens to damage: i.e.
868 rated alum 80/156 dam
844 rated alum 79/155 dam
750 rated alum 75/150 dam
461 rated alum 47/115 dam
If the scale rate was linear the damage would have been close to: 60/132 dam
Lack of information. If the gatign limits were documented for earch resource type (subtype?) it would provide new players with enough information to quickly judge and rate resources. It would also allow for more professional and information communication between developers and the community.
There may be a need for more information to be given out by devs, but definitely not for the reasons you've given out. So the devs come out tomorrow and say that there is a cap for copper SR at 800, a cap for aluminum CD at 800, etc. How is that going to make us play any differently? There is nothing to judge and rate between the different type of resources. Rhodium Steel at 20 CD and 570 SR is obviously better than Carbonite Steel at 600 CD and 900 SR for the advanced barrels because you can only use the Rhodium and not the Carbonite. You only need to start comparing when another Rhodium at 25 CD and 560 SR comes out, and here gating doesn't come into play at all.
It gives us the ability to validate resouce spawning and it also helps us to shed further light on what may be the actual problem. If they were to publish the caps for all of the reosurces and we see that based on the caps we have an 84% perfect Rhodium and that all combined the effective rate for an ABRB should be 88%, but we only get a 71% durign experimentation. That suggest that either the scale rate has a problem or there is a problem with experimentation gating. The effective rate is close to that of our reosurces, then that suggests that there is a problem with gating on the schematic.
The only reason for publishing the cap limits is to make sure that all the resource spawns have been within intended limits.
Without the ability to validate the workings in a compelx system, you are onyl left with trust/faith. The past have left both of those terribly battered and providing some means of validation would help tremendously in repairing that damage!
Currently gating happens at to many places to get a clear pictures of system interaction. You have gates on the actual schematic, on components on resources and with our tools and skills. The complex web of interactions makes it extremely difficult to balance anything, let alone determine where the problem really lies. It also is an system that encourages side effects (i.e. chaning one thing has a ripple effect on other systmes and items).
The problem, if there is one, isn't as complex as you make it out to be. Tools don't come into play here. Skills affect it a little, but mostly, it falls down to the resources and schematic. If there is a problem, it's very easy to fix it under the current system. Change the schematic. No extremely difficult and complex rebalancing job, since only one thing was changed. It's a molehill.. not a mountain.
Since the scale rate is not linear, and the ratign of tools can greatly increase the occurance of amazing success, there can be a big effect on the end product. I have 2 extra experimentation points thansk to skill tapes. With advance stocks, I can actually get better stats by having an moderate success, as it allows me to spend 1 more point on the advance stock than without. With all great success I get 40/40 dam .405 speed stocks. With 1 moderate success I get 40/40 dam.309 speed.
Is resource gating *the* problem. No, it is really just a component of *a* problem in which we are only able to see the symptoms. By removing resource gatign we simplify the problem and move towards an more abstract system that is more intuitive. Having the name resources would stull be viable as it increase variablility due to spawning issues (and further gating due to spawn patterns).
Removing resource gating isn't going to do anything here. Ok, it's going to make a lot of weapons better. That's your solution to this problem of yours? Make everything better? We're only going to end up with a lot of weapons that the devs are going to consider overpowered. Right. Just what we need.
The vast majority of weapons can use the improvement and removing the resource gatign isn't going to really effect them. All of the newbie weapons don't use named reosurces anyways and thus don't have a gating problem. However, there is a list of weapons that would be a problem; Geno pistols, Republican Blasters, DXR rifle. A list of weapons that might be a problem are t21, dx2, Jawa Ion rifle and DXR6 carbine.
The list of weapons in the might be a problem list would be basically similar to or worse than the current version with a minor Krayt tissue add to it basically... The would be a problem list would be ok as long as they don't get Krayt tissue enhanced....
The only reason you're saying resource gating is a problem and need to be removed is because you don't like it.
Duh!