Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Logix: Care to address this?
"Hmmm...forum bug is allowing me to read and post in correspndent forum. There is no actual discussion about crated weapons not being able to be romoved from crates...but ther eis a neat thread where the jedi correspondent is accusing weaponsmiths of "duping" featherweights, enhanced e-11's, and republics...no response from Logix in that thread explaining what was going on. I will probably get in trouble for posting this...guess I will have to "suck it up and deal with it" if so. I posted on the correspondent forum in the thread TH made titled "Logix: Ingame Weapons". I explained the prepatch not being able to be removed from crates, and asked if we could get some word on the new loot drop schems being factory ran. If that was out of line, frankly that's too bad...if I would have saw a post from Logix, I would not have felt the need to do so.
The naysayers were right. I apologize, it looks like to me now that issues aren't being brought to light...maybe they are in PM's....but what is the point in having a correspndent forum if they don't...you know...correspond."
I am pretty dissapointed right now.
Message Edited by Logix on 02-18-2004 11:13 PM
Actually no, I read that thread as well...
I did not jump to conclusions. I read through every post I could find on the discussion of weapons, problems people were having post patch, looking for replies from a dev and in the cases such as the jedi correspondent accusing smiths of duping...for responses from you directly.
What disturbed me was the lack of posting on your part. Maybe you feel that one post says all you need to say on it, but I don't. You have a 9 page thread here where weaponsmiths are tearing at each other, tearing at you...people are defending you, trying to give you support, giving you room to do your job...I was one of those people...frankly I feel my faith in you on this matter was not one of my better judgements.
Maybe you feel that bringing up a topic once...in a weekly correspondent discussion thread...that all the correspondents post thier problems in...every problem that they have....all in one thread...is enough...I see at as letting something you disagree with get buried in the muck while at the same time easing your conscience...I mean atleast you posted something right? Not your fault if it gets buried without an answer right?
The only instance I found of you saying anything was in the weekly correspondent thread. Maybe you should attempt to do more than the minimum requirements.
I apologize for publicly calling you to task such as this. ButI do not feel that you are putting any form of effort to addressing an issue which has caused such a prolific rift between new and old smiths. I would hope that the lackadasical approach you have taken yet to date was more of an oversight than a personal bias.
ArjunThakur simply re-posted the same issue I have been posting on:
"A lot of people are taking the 3 use schematics and creating 1000 use schematics from them which is rendering these almost worthless. Can we get a hotfix?"
I don't know what you would want me to add that I haven't already said.
The Weekly Correspondent Pipeline thread gets the highest amount of visibility and Developer responses. It's what stuff like this is for, so we can have a spot where we can get the fastest response available. The weekly threads are stickied, so they cannot fall "under the muck", unlike ArjunThakur's thread. I have had three posts on the schematic subject alone in a week's timeon those forums, requesting more information. I am trying to exercise common courtesy and keep a level-head, as I know the Developers are terribly busy and cannot offer a response as quickly as we would like. Becoming irate and demanding a faster response is not an option, as it does not make it any easier for any of us.
As for the "In-Game Weapons" thread, there's nothing that could have been posted there. Thunderheart couldn't remember what information he was asking for, he even said that he couldn't remember what information he was asking for. But instead of noting that, you accuse me of ignoring the thread entirely, even though I had the first response in the thread requesting specifics.
Message Edited by Logix on 02-18-2004 11:51 PM
Logix wrote:
ArjunThakur simply re-posted the same issue I have been posting on:
"A lot of people are taking the 3 use schematics and creating 1000 use schematics from them which is rendering these almost worthless. Can we get a hotfix?"
I don't know what you would want me to add that I haven't already said.
The Weekly Correspondent Pipeline thread gets the highest amount of visibility and Developer responses. It's what stuff like this is for, so we can have a spot where we can get the fastest response available. The weekly threads are stickied, so they cannot fall "under the muck", unlike ArjunThakur's thread.
As for the "In-Game Weapons" thread, there's nothing that could have been posted there. Thunderheart couldn't remember what information he was asking for, he even said that he couldn't remember what information he was asking for. But instead of noting that, you accuse me of ignoring the thread entirely, even though I had the first response in the thread requesting specifics.
Exactly my point. You stated what was wrong...in one post...which you call the highly visible pipeline...I call it 30+ people yelling at the same time...in the meanwhile... you have a correspondent running around telling the devs people are "duping"...1) He clearly doesn't know what duping is. 2) You are sitting there allowing someone who has the dev's ear to slanderize the people you re supposed to be representing without so much as an real explanation to what is going on.
If that one thread and one post is the only official avenue that YOU have discuss OUR problems to the devs with then why have an entire forum at all. I am not saying that you should have platered the correspondent forum with posts about our problems...but I can't help that notice I got your attention pretty damn fast. Should any less ne expected of you reperesenting us in the correspondent forums?
Is it that hard to understand that while you disagree (which you made abundantly clear) that your task is to represent the smiths who feel strongly about thier class with an effort that is just as strong. IT IS YOUR JOB TO GET ANSWERS. And to jackhammer away until you get answer. Not to whisper about issues you disagree with and then go about your daily routine regardless of if that answer is forthcoming or not.
I used to think Jester was a freakshow, at least he gets results. Give me a lion over a sheep anyday. For pity sake atleast defend your own class when someone bad mouths it in the privacy of the dev forum....only you 30+ and the devs can read it...don't be more scared to speak your mind there than you are here.
Reldun wrote:
Exactly my point. You stated what was wrong...in one post...which you call the highly visible pipeline...I call it 30+ people yelling at the same time...in the meanwhile... you have a correspondent running around telling the devs people are "duping"...1) He clearly doesn't know what duping is. 2) You are sitting there allowing someone who has the dev's ear to slanderize the people you re supposed to be representing without so much as an real explanation to what is going on.
If that one thread and one post is the only official avenue that YOU have discuss OUR problems to the devs with then why have an entire forum at all. I am not saying that you should have platered the correspondent forum with posts about our problems...but I can't help that notice I got your attention pretty damn fast. Should any less ne expected of you reperesenting us in the correspondent forums?
ArjunThakur was not wholly correct in his usage of "duping", in my opinion. But, his meaning was clear in his posts, he was simply referring to the making-1000-item-schematic issue; he just considered it 'duping' in his opinion. Since you're making 3000 items out of what should be 3, some take a much more hostile approach to the idea, including Weaponsmiths. However, arguing semantics is not going to get the issue pushed any faster. Whether or not he referred to it as duping is irrelevant, the issue is that it has yet to be addressed. Hijacking the thread into an argument over the correct usage of the word "duping" and what he meant by it will not assist in receiving a Developer response. Just like you hijacking this argument into semantics is not assisting either of us in coming to a resolution.
If I had a Developer tell me that these schematics were perfectly legit and someone called it duping, at that point I would immediately call them on it, because there would be no way possible they could construe a legitimate process into something illegitimate. But we still don't know.
Like I said in my above post, I am trying to exercise common courtesy. It has been a week that we have awaited an answer and that is not a terribly long time. If all 33 Correspondents "jackhammered" issues that they felt were their profession's most pertinent every week, that forum would cease to be an effective means of communication. So, we have to use our discretion. I think three posts requesting a response in a week is an appropriate balance between "jackhammering" and maintaining consideration for the flow of the forums and the time available to the Developers.
Message Edited by Logix on 02-19-2004 12:06 AM
And that is where I will agree to disagree. Sometimes perception becomes more important than fact. With the very recent house cleaning the devs did on tainted weaponsmiths/smugglers... it becomes increasingly important to not allow room for misunderstandings. Things SHOULD be pointed out and clearly defined. Dev's should be pushed for answers, not given the abilty to sit back for 3 months and then declare something wrong. To allow someone to even use a term that in most instances is synonomous with a bannable offense and not correct them shows an extreme lack of foresight. It doesn't really matter if it is duping or not does it? If enough people call it duping, then it becomes duping.
I am going to be blunt here, if I haven't enough already. As a correspondent dealing with him firsthand, you should have already figured this out. TH is overtasked. He has entirely too much on his plate. On top of that, being around since launch, I would characterize him as being poorly organized and easily distracted. So no, I do not feel that you addressed the situation anywhere near as strongly as you should have. Now, I do realize that the devs treat correspondents like mushrooms (they feed you crap and keep you in the dark) but you do have to push and prod. You can't just sit around and wait for an answer, sometimes the dust only comes out of the carpet if you hit it with a stick long enough.
Maybe what you are not getting here is that I don't expect you to be on my side over the crate nerf. I don't expect an apology...what I want is for you to read this, go back into the correspondent forum and be a pain in the ass if need be. Go get a black eye...it only hurts for a little while. My point is, and I think you are missing it...to many people, myself included after tonight, you have set on your duff about a tough issue that I think you are biased towards...throw out the bias and get us an answer.
Reldun wrote:
Maybe what you are not getting here is that I don't expect you to be on my side over the crate nerf. I don't expect an apology...what I want is for you to read this, go back into the correspondent forum and be a pain in the ass if need be. Go get a black eye...it only hurts for a little while. My point is, and I think you are missing it...to many people, myself included after tonight, you have set on your duff about a tough issue that I think you are biased towards...throw out the bias and get us an answer.
Frankly, I think you are simply hellbent on spreading propaganda now that you have been caught in a mistake caused by the fact that you overlooked the posts in that forum far too quickly. Instead of apologizing for your mistake and noting that you might've overlooked the posts, you simply spiral further into your argument with no basis whatsoever. I have not made one single post in regards to the schematic issue expressing my discontent or overbearing favor for it. If anything, I have maintained an amazingly neutral standpoint, both warning Weaponsmiths of the risks of making these schematics if they decide to nerf it (FWG5 crates and wasted resources all over again) and promoting optimism and the benefits we will yield if they deem these schematics legit (to provide a brighter outlook to smiths convinced we are doomed to be forever slaves to the loot drops).
Well allow me to retort since you want to be snarky and I was being polite.
How long exactly do you think it takes to do a search by your username and then look at the threads to see the discussion and to see what your response was.
Again I will be blunt. I looked at your posts. I looked at the threads. You have let us down, period. I try to call attention to it wihoot resulting to being heavy. I try do debate with you when you openly respond...
To be not so nice...you are full of **edit**e. Yes, when it comes right down to it, you let your personal bias of the prenerf weapons cloud your ability to correctly facilitate the concern that smiths and customers possessing these weapons in crates have been given a raw deal.Hell youdidn't even deem it necessary to mention more than once that it even flippin happened. You allow other correspondents to tell the devs honest weaponsmiths are doing something illegal and do not bother to correct them. When you can't defend yourself with actual facts....again..I have read every post you have made in the correspondent forum since the last publish so I know what you have said and what you haven't and how slack you have been about bringing the issues to bear, you got snarky. So fine I can be snarky too.
Yes. You have been slackass. Yes. You have been biased. Yes. You have stood by while other peopl who arent even crafters have bad mouthed us to the devs. Yes. You owe us an apology.
Reldun wrote:
Well allow me to retort since you want to be snarky and I was being polite.
How long exactly do you think it takes to do a search by your username and then look at the threads to see the discussion and to see what your response was.
I dunno, but you didn't post them. Where are my supposed posts where I'm demanding a nerf to these schematics? I just did a search on myself and I didn't see anything of the sort.
I'm going to do a quick run-down here of your claims: a.) I am not elevating the schematic issue and b.) I have shown a bias towards the schematic issue.
Here's my rebuttal: a.) It hasn't even been two days since I last made another post on the schematic issue and b.) Hey, look, I can search too:
Logix wrote [Re: Logix: Question please...are loot drop schematics the future of smithing?]:
I hate to say it, but we asked for it. Careful what you wish for, I suppose.
But yeah, I don't really know right now. I don't want to be a smith like this, either, none of us do. Combatants want loot, crafters want our economy not ruined by loot and crafters also want new stuff. So this is what we end with as our compromise.
Oddly enough, you can make a schematic out of a [looted] schematic. Right now, I'm trying to pursue an answer as to whether or not this is intended (I would not recommend doing this until it has been cleared as perfectly legit), because it would effectively mean you could mass-produce these "enhanced" weapons from schematics. Which would be nice, meaning we could provide these weapons for sale ourselves, as opposed to Joebob bugging us to make three guns from his schematic.
Bear in mind, we still have this famed "Weapon Balance" publish coming up in 2006 or whatever. I really do think we will see new guns for ourselves and not obtained through Vader, just a matter of time.
--
Logix wrote [in the same thread]:
LemyDaBigHairyWookie wrote:
Logix... what you are doing is saying the very prinicple of crafting and using factories is in POSSIBLE violation...I know it is a bit of a stretch on what you said but in essence its the same thing...
No, I'm not. I'm saying turning a small amount of something into a very big amount of something is in possible violation.
This is different when we're talking about schematics created with limited uses. One has to think, if I was intended to make3000 Enhanced E11 Carbines, why couldn't I loot a schematic with3000 uses instead of only three?
This scenario is more akin to the no-serial Krayt tissue. While the game did not prevent you from making a +30 Krayt Tissue into a +60 Krayt Tissue, it was still considered a violation. You're taking something small and turning it into something bigger when you probably shouldn't be doing so. Simply because the developers did not have the foresight to retroactively remove these no-serial tissues does not mean they wanted you to be able to do this. And, simply because the developers left the ability to make a schematic out of a looted schematic does not mean it was intended, either.
So, I wouldn't be so quick to get your hopes up, as we could be expecting a nerf thrown at these schematics any time.
--
Logix wrote [Re: OK logix, EXPLOIT or NOT?]:
Chli wrote:
Jeez people. You guys are really worrying about this way too much. Sell your weapons, make your schematics. You didn't do some freaky trick to get the option. They "gave" you the option to create schematic or create weapon. You didn't cheat. Not like you tried some stupid smuggler line to get 5 slices on a weapon and you didn't hack into the system and make it so you could shoot through walls. THEY GAVE YOU THE OPTION!!
That doesn't mean we won't wake up tomorrow to find 500 "invalid" guns on our vendors without warning.
There has been no verified response on this thus far. The developers have the weekend off, so they're probably just getting started with their Monday meetings right now. I'll let you know as soon as I have something to report.
--
These quotes are exactly what I have said I have been doing. I'm not showing a particular bias towards either side, so please show me where I'm running secret underground anti-schematic world domination plans, because I cannot seem to locate them.
Logix I have a question for you and I'm looking for a simple answer from you on the issue of removing prenerfs from crates. I sell guns and have been since day 1. I have a very succesful business and I feel I have made a huge contribution to the economy of this game on the Flurry server. I had the foresight to buy crates of prenerf scatters and fwg5's because obviously they would sell for more over time. These guns were made before they got nerfed so they were in the game appropriately. A few months go by and now the devs decide we're not going to let ppl remove these guns from any crates that they have. My question is why? Why stop guns rightfully made from being used in the game? They would have decayed on there own over time just like the T-21's first made that were overpowered. I don't remeber reading anywhere that you can't possess or keep crates of nerfed guns so whats this talk about we were warned? Warned about what? Don't keep crates of these guns? This issue has infuriated numberous CUSTOMERS and ppl have quit the game because of this issue. The devs better start listening to there customers becauses were paying their way here. There is absolutely no reason from them to do what they did when these guns will decay naturally on their own. Why don't you simply ask the devs to address this issue that has angered so may ppl and see if they will say boy we blew this one. Lets reverse what we did because it has cleary upset too many ppl and leave it at that. Ppl would respect them for admitting that they made a bad choice and that they listened to us. It's your job to tell them what's important to us.
^ ^ ^
ppl should post that crap in the nine page thread where ppl have been arguing about it with other ppl since last week
Logix wrote:
Reldun wrote:
Well allow me to retort since you want to be snarky and I was being polite.
How long exactly do you think it takes to do a search by your username and then look at the threads to see the discussion and to see what your response was.
I dunno, but you didn't post them. Where are my supposed posts where I'm demanding a nerf to these schematics? I just did a search on myself and I didn't see anything of the sort.
I'm going to do a quick run-down here of your claims: a.) I am not elevating the schematic issue and b.) I have shown a bias towards the schematic issue.
Here's my rebuttal: a.) It hasn't even been two days since I last made another post on the schematic issue and b.) Hey, look, I can search too:
Logix wrote [Re: Logix: Question please...are loot drop schematics the future of smithing?]:
I hate to say it, but we asked for it. Careful what you wish for, I suppose.
But yeah, I don't really know right now. I don't want to be a smith like this, either, none of us do. Combatants want loot, crafters want our economy not ruined by loot and crafters also want new stuff. So this is what we end with as our compromise.
Oddly enough, you can make a schematic out of a [looted] schematic. Right now, I'm trying to pursue an answer as to whether or not this is intended (I would not recommend doing this until it has been cleared as perfectly legit), because it would effectively mean you could mass-produce these "enhanced" weapons from schematics. Which would be nice, meaning we could provide these weapons for sale ourselves, as opposed to Joebob bugging us to make three guns from his schematic.
Bear in mind, we still have this famed "Weapon Balance" publish coming up in 2006 or whatever. I really do think we will see new guns for ourselves and not obtained through Vader, just a matter of time.
--
Logix wrote [in the same thread]:
LemyDaBigHairyWookie wrote:
Logix... what you are doing is saying the very prinicple of crafting and using factories is in POSSIBLE violation...I know it is a bit of a stretch on what you said but in essence its the same thing...
No, I'm not. I'm saying turning a small amount of something into a very big amount of something is in possible violation.
This is different when we're talking about schematics created with limited uses. One has to think, if I was intended to make3000 Enhanced E11 Carbines, why couldn't I loot a schematic with3000 uses instead of only three?
This scenario is more akin to the no-serial Krayt tissue. While the game did not prevent you from making a +30 Krayt Tissue into a +60 Krayt Tissue, it was still considered a violation. You're taking something small and turning it into something bigger when you probably shouldn't be doing so. Simply because the developers did not have the foresight to retroactively remove these no-serial tissues does not mean they wanted you to be able to do this. And, simply because the developers left the ability to make a schematic out of a looted schematic does not mean it was intended, either.
So, I wouldn't be so quick to get your hopes up, as we could be expecting a nerf thrown at these schematics any time.
--
Logix wrote [Re: OK logix, EXPLOIT or NOT?]:
Chli wrote:
Jeez people. You guys are really worrying about this way too much. Sell your weapons, make your schematics. You didn't do some freaky trick to get the option. They "gave" you the option to create schematic or create weapon. You didn't cheat. Not like you tried some stupid smuggler line to get 5 slices on a weapon and you didn't hack into the system and make it so you could shoot through walls. THEY GAVE YOU THE OPTION!!
That doesn't mean we won't wake up tomorrow to find 500 "invalid" guns on our vendors without warning.
There has been no verified response on this thus far. The developers have the weekend off, so they're probably just getting started with their Monday meetings right now. I'll let you know as soon as I have something to report.
--
These quotes are exactly what I have said I have been doing. I'm not showing a particular bias towards either side, so please show me where I'm running secret underground anti-schematic world domination plans, because I cannot seem to locate them.
What exaclty are you talking about and where in the hell did you get that I said that?
Let me talk slow, maybe you are getting sleepy
1) People are upset about the prenerf crates being unable to be used now. (you made a post about that in the very long weekly corespondents thread...and brought it up nowhere else even though there is a 9 page thread here about it)
2) The jedi correspondent was telling the devs that honest smiths were duping weapons (you did not reply to this thread)
I am not talking about what you have posted here. I am talking about what was posted "behind closed doors" that we weren't supposed to see, but yet do to a glitch some people did.