Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: weapon dps is a joke...
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runatic
Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:47 pm
#1
i have been playing around with weapon builds and my master rifle/bh...just for test i took the highest dps pupd and sliced weapon i had (850 dps 920max HLR) and put it up against a much lower but much harder hitting weapon (340dps 1300max laser)...
then i took a 80 bol mission and proceeded to snipe and (auto) advanced critical shot them to the death.. im not gonna go crazy with details here.. but sniping everytime it refreshed and doing 2 (auto) advanced crit shots in between each shot showed some pretty interesting results.
the 850dps weapon took 25 secs to kill a lvl 80 bol
the 340dps weapon took 14 secs to kill a lvl 80 bol
same lair same results each time (factoring out misses when and if they occured)
soheres some assumptions on that data:
- weapon dps look s nice on paper but doesnt mean anything
- speed is capped in the player skill tree at some value that isnt updating when you hold a weapon and inspect it
- true dps is based on skill refresh since there is no auto attack anymore.. unless you got some sort of click macro or like carpal tunnel syndrome
- pistols have the lowest bottom end speed and rifles the highest.. hence the sac caps in construction
- a 82 sac 240dps rifle that hits harder than yoursis likely WAAY better then the one your ooogling over for 1 million credits
In any case id love to see some others prove or disprove my theory using some of the following arguments and stats... im just too damn lazy
1) if you macro skillsets together effectively you actually see the difference in dps (vice auto attacking with one skill)
2) plane on hard parseing data to prove disprove the difference in speed
***note: if your anon CL 80who can hold a scoutblaster please dont use your data, as i am sure that your pistol speed may not be actually at the low cap that i am presuming is unseeable in the weapon stat window.. and therefore yes, i am sure you would benefit from a 0.9 speed weapon more so than a 2.0 speed one... although some proof either way would be notable
Finally, after a 2 year layoff only to find coh,eq2,wow and a host of other games are annoying the crap out of me i came back went to intrepid transferred my credits and have decided to retake my old skills of master weps/armorsmith (Brayn) and master BH/Rifle (Runaa)..I have rebuilt my resource arsenal to what i feel is pretty good seeing as how i had quite a lot of credits still left over from a set of unserialized krayt tissue that i turned into supreme weapons on Scylla server a very long time ago (I think you can still see some of my old weapons around in old Forum searchs using my weps name "Brayn". Reason for saying all this is, well, frankly, im quite the newb again and will say and do some dumb things on these forums (possibly including this entire post lol) try not too flame too hard.
Otherwise hopefully i can add some good stuff to the discussions and am very glad to see some of the great data that is on these forums in a lot of professions but specifically these links
CorenLanras Complete Post CU guide
Abbels References for Weapon Caps
Toronts Weapon Certification List
List of all Weapon Enhancers and Weapon Schematics ingame
jobs well done guys and I for one appreciate the effort helped me roll back into things rapidly
Anarchicgorilla
Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:49 pm
#3
Well got to see this because I get dead opposite results
First of all post the exact weapons you used.
Next state the exact macro you used for each one.... if you used the same one for each weapon then of course not... because a higher DPS likely has a lower speed meaning you can fire it faster... but if you did the same macro for both you are making you DPS weapon fire at the speed of your DMG weapon which is not giving it justice
I read your post and it stats this and that with no specifics on the shots fired the time inbeteen etc. etc.
Please post something like this;
weapon DPS weapon DAmage
stats stats
/criticalshot /critical shot
/pause ?? /pause ??
/snipershot /snipershot
I have seen many people say this and that... but when they compare they donot consider that a DPS weapon can fire faster as such you need to adjust the firing times to get its full potential.
Also from what I read it sounded like you did this
sniper
critical
critical
sniper
If so this is just strange.... a back to back shot cannot fire at the same speed as two differnt shots... another way you are not giving justice to a DPS weapon
Back to back specials recharge at a set rate ... so here dps means jack
howeve 2 differnt special... ie critical - head - critcal - head
use the modified speed to factor how fast you can fire you next shot... so this makes a huge difference...
To me all you post says is look I compared a DPS weapon To a Damage weapon and did every thing possible to make the dpsweaponineffective and set up the test sight to make the damage weapon appear better.
A real comparision uses the stregths of each to get the best each can do with how the are built and then see which one does more damage
Your comparison is like doing this... i took a 1000 dps 600 dmg weapon and a 500 dps 1000 dmg weapon and then did this
critical
pause 20 seconds
critical
pause 20 seconds
And look the 1000 dmg one did more.... this is ubsurd right..... it is what you are doing in your comparision but not on such an extreme level
Message Edited by Anarchicgorilla on 09-29-2005 10:03 PM
runatic
Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:14 pm
#4
anarch ok well said... ill look farther into it and make a real post.. i was testing the water a bit
jediboba
Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:38 pm
#5
Kregi
Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:23 pm
#6
DPS is a joke. lol. Here is how you prove it. Equip a weapon. Add speed powerup. Watch mod DPS go thru the roof. For this example i use a 2.41 base speed bowcaster with 618-1236 damage. I get my mod dps to 1045 with a 35% speed powerup. I then use ranged shot against a mob and hit no faster then once every 2 seconds. I then remove powerup and add an sac powerup watching mod dps drop to 650 or so. Using ranged shot i still hit once every 2 seconds. But now I can use alot more specials and kill the mob about twice as fast.
Munitionsmaster
Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:27 pm
#7
I am an odd smith who puts Damage before SAC.....but ya DPS is useless. Here is my logic
DPS is a combination of Speed and Damage.
IF DPS is Important then Speed AND Damage are important.
Damage works
Therefore Damage is important
Speed is broken
Therefore speed is unimportant.
Therefore DPS is unimportant
Message Edited by Munitionsmaster on 10-02-2005 11:30 PM
Rinviero
Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:12 am
#8
You are a fool if you think DPS is not important....
You are a fool if you just select a single attack move and set it on auto....
I see a connection here.
Rico4
Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:41 am
#9
This argument is so old and has been discussed many times. The fact is in each case there is never a true conclusion. why? because its all a matter of your character template and the tactics you use.
A double master such as MBH/Rifles will want a sac capped/damage capped HLR/ALR with either a critical slice or speed slice.
A template such as MDOC/MArtisan/Novice marksman such as my charatcer will want a high damage and fast speed weapon (high Dps) the sac doesnt matter because he will still be too slow to run out of action.
My other charater MBH/MCARB/CM 1-0-0-3 Has a damage capped/sac capped E11 MKII with full speed slice and 379dps. This weapon is just about right for him as it allows me to use different pups for different situations. If im buffed ill use a damage pup for medium 10-15kHAM mobs, higher mobs ill use a sac pup. When im unbuffed ill use a speed pup (This gives me 990modded dps) This allows me to kill any 15k HAM critter in one action bar using Crit/Leg/Ranged (with stun/dizzy/KD at first) When my action runs low i just use this time to heal and do ranged shot until it has recharged enough.
With this character and weapon with a speed pup i managed to solo Necrosis unbuffed because of the constant damage output. If i had used a sac or damage pup i may not have run out of action as quick but the extra time taken to fire each shot would mean he would have healed more and it may have taken longer. If i was buffed i would have used a sac pup and killed him alot quicker.
So dont listen to anybody else about speed, damage, dps, sac because its upto you to decide whats right for your character. If i were to swap my weapons between characters (if the E11 MKII wasnt certified for MCAR) they would both be useless.
Dps means alot to some people and nothing to others. Its an argument that cant be justified one way or the other.
Message Edited by Rico4 on 10-03-2005 11:09 AM
Rinviero
Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:01 am
#10
Rico4 wrote:
its upto you to decide whats right for your character.
QFE.... I have a melee toon, but keep a 490 dps ALR (after slice and pup) on me so if I get rooted at least I can cause a little bit of pain... I have no ranged skills at all, but can still cause a noticable about of damage with this weapon.
BloodMonk
Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:30 am
#11
high speed is only good whne y ouget the most of it by alternating different attacks to get around cooldowns....
so DPS still is an indication for the possible damage output of your gun....
my speed pupped 0.77s mod speed fwg packs a MUCH bigger punch than my sac pup'd fwg...non-pupped their stats are equal
Anarchicgorilla
Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:48 am
#12
Kregi wrote:
DPS is a joke. lol. Here is how you prove it. Equip a weapon. Add speed powerup. Watch mod DPS go thru the roof. For this example i use a 2.41 base speed bowcaster with 618-1236 damage. I get my mod dps to 1045 with a 35% speed powerup. I then use ranged shot against a mob and hit no faster then once every 2 seconds. I then remove powerup and add an sac powerup watching mod dps drop to 650 or so. Using ranged shot i still hit once every 2 seconds. But now I can use alot more specials and kill the mob about twice as fast.
Again not a accurate test.... why do you guys compare this way?
/ranged
/ranged
??????????
of course you dps means jack when you are firing back to back same shot (see my original post)
try this
/ranged
/placed
/repeat
Anarchicgorilla
Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:15 am
#13
This is how the cool down timer works before you can fire you next shot...
Your modified speed X your special speed (now this if for 2 differnt shots, and the cap is one)
rangedshot = 1 shot speed
placedshot = 1.3 shot speed
So for this combo you want you modified speed at .77or .76 once you get lower it does make no differnce becuase of the1 cap and .77 (even though 1.001 with placed) will allow you to fire after placed in 1 second.
Now sac does mean something .... for example if your sac is 130 and you try the above combo ranged placed... you will need food and still run out of sac pretty quick.
From testing I have found thatyou still needunder 120 sactodo this with a modifed of.77 (Important for rifles and heavy weapons builds)
Another point to consider is if you have a weapon with high elemental (like a , nyms, trando pis, or most heavy weapons)
As of now you elemental damage still does not get multiplied by the damage multiplier (except it will with torso, why only torso i have not clue.. maybe has something to do with ticks)
So for a LBC or katarn TKA running a ranged / placed maco with speed pup is even more important, because all those 1.7- 1.9 damage multipliers on your specialshots is not applied to the elemental damage. A huge diffence with a 180acid nyms or 200 electrical LBC
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