Weaponsmith Archive

Thread: SAC Question and High Tissues Worthless?

Coonsan
Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:48 pm
#1
first question, how do u guys get the SAC down lower, cuz it seems when i experiment in it, it only goes down 2-3 points, which isnt very worth it imo


second question, are high tissues worthless? it seems with weapon caps and such, that using high krayt tissues is worthless, for instance, if i am making a T21 and use around 100 Max tissues i get about 1110 max damage roughly, using 184s i get 1154 max damage.....dont see much of a different


could someone help me out, or give me their thoughts?
KRONOS1974
Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:11 pm
#2

I believe main SAC comes from components.


APBH 1


15-41 DAM


-1.86 SPD


0 SAC


APBH 2


15-41 DAM


-1.25 SPD


-7SAC


For an example, same with pistol/rifle barrel can take away 10-15 extra SAC pts right there. Experimenting on SAC in final assembly doesnt seem like a good option.


Im still messing around with DPS/SAC but that would be 1 reason. Or they are using pre-cu components in their weapons with offer -6SAC on each piece.



Ono'mas - Elder Architect, Droid Engineer, Artisan, Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, and Shipwright.
Onopanek Elder Jedi, Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, and many more.

Vendors located in Hadrian's Market, Tat
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EdOWar
Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:09 pm
#3

To lower SAC significantly, experiment it in the sub-components instead of speed. You can get -8 SAC with 8 experimentation points. On the final combine each experimentation point usually reduces SAC by 3 or 4 points.


Slim Vargo, Corbantis


ShugFlurry
Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 pm
#4
I use -9 SAC pfm/abph. Though I still use pre-cu -6 SAC barrels instead of -9 post cu. 10 damage and about .15 speed is worth it.



Shug
12pt Master WeaponSmith Master Force Crafter
-843 2827 Dantooine, Mining Outpost
Bermag
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:15 am
#5


KRONOS1974 wrote:

I believe main SAC comes from components.


APBH 1


15-41 DAM


-1.86 SPD


0 SAC


APBH 2


15-41 DAM


-1.25 SPD


-7SAC


For an example, same with pistol/rifle barrel can take away 10-15 extra SAC pts right there. Experimenting on SAC in final assembly doesnt seem like a good option.


Im still messing around with DPS/SAC but that would be 1 reason. Or they are using pre-cu components in their weapons with offer -6SAC on each piece.





In this case you would sacrifice 0.06 speed on weapon and that would cost you about 2 exp points if you want to maintain the same weapon speed. Which you could used to lower the SAC with about same amount as you have on the lower sac ABPH.


So it depends what you want to do. If you want to minimize sac to lowest possible then exp all components on sac. But if you want balanced stats then some other way might be more efficient. I usually experiment components on speed first then sac. And experiment weapon on damage and sac. This gives a pretty good balance.



---
Bermag [SiyBer Arms]

ex-NGE 12 pt Master Weaponsmith/FS Crafting Mastery- Wanderhome
Corellia: (Coronet -200, -5500) Dantooine Imp op -4422 -2383
High quality and low price
Now playing Eve
KRONOS1974
Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:46 pm
#6

-

Message Edited by KRONOS1974 on 06-07-2005 07:10 PM



Ono'mas - Elder Architect, Droid Engineer, Artisan, Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, and Shipwright.
Onopanek Elder Jedi, Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, and many more.

Vendors located in Hadrian's Market, Tat
Drop off on my -Sith Lord- vendor.
Mayor of Hadrian's Market
KRONOS1974
Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:57 pm
#7

Ok just made 2 powerhammers little while ago had to go back in to get stats. Which is better?



PH 1:


2.58 speed


500-1011 damage


292.43 dps


127 sac


PH 2:


2.70 speed


500-1011 damage


279.64 dps


114 sac



Between 1+2 i lose -.12 speed and lower sac by 13pts.


Is -.12 speed really worth it to a master with +50-60 speed modifiers? Or is sac more important so they dont run out of action in middle of a battle. DPS will jump up when you add in profession mofifiers so minus 20 dps pts doesnt mean much, or does it.


Ive seen some PH's with even high SAC than the 127.


ph1 was made with -1.94 spd 0sac cores (roughly)


ph2 was made with -1.17 spd -8sac cores (roughly)





Ono'mas - Elder Architect, Droid Engineer, Artisan, Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, and Shipwright.
Onopanek Elder Jedi, Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, and many more.

Vendors located in Hadrian's Market, Tat
Drop off on my -Sith Lord- vendor.
Mayor of Hadrian's Market
XobNoics
Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:05 pm
#8
Copy/paste from another thread (Source):




Actually speed is very important too. What's good with high max damage and low SAC if you shoot too slow? Did you know a +25 speed tape (on my toon) changes modifed speed by ONLY 0.04 seconds and +50 speedchanges (on my toon) speed by ONLY0.10? It doesn't seem like a lot on paper, but speed is a multiplier on cooldown timers. No, the combat log doesn't show milliseconds, but that 0.10 or 0.04 second difference does work and it does count.


With weapons it's like playing paper-rock-scissors.


- What good is damage if you can't fire fast enough?


- What good is speed if youuse too much SAC?


- What good is SAC if you can't do enough damage?


(What goodare any of the above if you can't hit the target?)


To "win" is to defeat the opponent in the quickest possible way.




_________________________________________________
Xob Noics - Master Rifleman, Bounty Hunter
Kyowarr - Dark Jedi Knight
Inzi Noics - Master Weaponsmith, Artisan, Merchant
(+25 Experimentation, +35 Assembly, Force Crafting Mastery)
Bubble Box's Mini Mall near Theed -6725 4085
KRONOS1974
Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:29 pm
#9

Base master pistoleer speed = 70


Base speed on my pistol = 2.0spd


Modified speed with master pistoleer mods = 1.38spd ( -.62 spd)


+11 speed tape, total 81 speed mod = modified speed of 1.33 spd ( -.67 spd)


My pistol has 75SAC.


I see where you are coming from for speed tapes but from speed mods from the profession it drops a good bit. That has to be bugged to add +25 speed and only drop that much


So now -.67spd -.12 ( lost in weapon assembly) = -.55 spd - 2.0spd = 1.45 modified speed.


Add in BH or another profession that offers general ranged speed and im sure would drop more.



And with doc buffs or spice that adds action regen rate that -.10 or -.12 speed and windup time isnt a factor.



Im not trying to argue or start fight here. Just trying to understand. SO much talk about SAC/DPS. Ive tried it both ways and think i gain more by going into SAC rather than speed. Both sides make good statements but i dont want to have to make 1 run of high dps/speed waepons and another run of low sac weapons. God id run out of resources fast lol.


Message Edited by KRONOS1974 on 06-07-2005 07:31 PM



Ono'mas - Elder Architect, Droid Engineer, Artisan, Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, and Shipwright.
Onopanek Elder Jedi, Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, and many more.

Vendors located in Hadrian's Market, Tat
Drop off on my -Sith Lord- vendor.
Mayor of Hadrian's Market
XobNoics
Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:45 pm
#10
No worries, not arguing. Just wanted to point out that a well balanced weapon is more important than one that is not. The example you listed can also be applied to someone with a well balanced weapon. In that case, he might be able to shoot you down faster.


Here's an example of what can happen with a quick enough (well balanced) weapon... clicky. I don't remember which power up I used but it looks to be the speed one.


My mods:

170 Speed (+25 rifle and +25 ranged speed)

367 Accuracy (+12 FS accuracy, +25 rifle accuracy, +21 ranged accuracy)






I've come to realize that I have to stock both types of weapons: 1) Balanced (damage, speed, SAC) and 2) Low SAC, to satisfy both crowds.




_________________________________________________
Xob Noics - Master Rifleman, Bounty Hunter
Kyowarr - Dark Jedi Knight
Inzi Noics - Master Weaponsmith, Artisan, Merchant
(+25 Experimentation, +35 Assembly, Force Crafting Mastery)
Bubble Box's Mini Mall near Theed -6725 4085
Bermag
Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:16 am
#11
The question is how the action cost formula really works. It might be that there is not a real big difference between for example a weapon with a sac of 110 vs 100. I have done soem tests with rifles and did not see that much difference between a weapon with 129 vs 104 vs 80, but when I got sac down to 63 (with pup) there was a large difference. Probbaly because I got action cost so low that it was close to how fast action regeneration is.


With lightsabers the formula for force power cost is:


Base special force cost (depends on special) + saber force cost x special modifier


The special modifier (multiplier) is pretty low, the highest is 2.0 for Dervish (1.25 for saber head hit). The base special cost is pretty high though, for dervish it is 50 (25 for head hit). Let compare:


Saber 1: 10 fc


dervish: 50 + 2x 10 = 70

head hit 25+ 1.25x 10= 37,5


Saber 2: 20 fc


dervish: 50 + 2x20 = 90

head hit: 25 + 1,25 *20 = 50


The force cost on saber is important (but not as important as pre-cu where it was saber fc x modifier and modifer being high) but since the base force cost is so high it is that what is most penalizing.


What I wanted to do with this excercise is to show that MAYBE action cost is using a simular formula. For example let say that base action cost is 100 and modifier is 1.2:


Weapon 1 (sac 120): 100 +1.2x120 = 244

Weapon 2 (sac 100): 100 + 1.2x100= 220 (vs 1: 17% lower sac - 10% lower action cost)

Weapon 3 (sac 80): 100 +1.2 x 80= 196 (vs 1: 33% lower sac - 20% lower action cost


Those numbers are completly made up, just to show an example how it might be.


The optimal sac is when action regeneration equals action usage.



---
Bermag [SiyBer Arms]

ex-NGE 12 pt Master Weaponsmith/FS Crafting Mastery- Wanderhome
Corellia: (Coronet -200, -5500) Dantooine Imp op -4422 -2383
High quality and low price
Now playing Eve
Bermag
Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:17 am
#12




Coonsan wrote:

first question, how do u guys get the SAC down lower, cuz it seems when i experiment in it, it only goes down 2-3 points, which isnt very worth it imo


second question, are high tissues worthless? it seems with weapon caps and such, that using high krayt tissues is worthless, for instance, if i am making a T21 and use around 100 Max tissues i get about 1110 max damage roughly, using 184s i get 1154 max damage.....dont see much of a different


could someone help me out, or give me their thoughts?



So far it seems that damage on tissues are added to weapon at 1:1. In your case it might be that you hit the damage cap (1154?)




---
Bermag [SiyBer Arms]

ex-NGE 12 pt Master Weaponsmith/FS Crafting Mastery- Wanderhome
Corellia: (Coronet -200, -5500) Dantooine Imp op -4422 -2383
High quality and low price
Now playing Eve
Maceey
Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:59 am
#13
What i find to work is exp on sac/speed on the subs make a nice balance between them all. Or go for low sac abph and high speed barrels. I just try to get a nice avarage on speed for the final combine. gonna test it with some different pistols to see what i need to attack every 2 seconds. As soon as i find a good balance in that i will figure out how much points to put into sac and speed to still get that speed so we attack every 2 seconds. So far i didn't see anybody post a nice avarage of that.




Maceey USRForce
12 Point Master Weaponsmith--->Night Elf Hunter
Corellia, Fraggers Island
CotC Mall [ 6350 4420 ]
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