Teras Kasi Archive

So far, it seems like defense is one of the biggest concerns coming from TKA.

So lets get more direct.


1. What abilities would you give the TKA to improve defense?
2. Where would you put those abilities?
3. How would you balance these abilities with other professions?


Give me every idea you have. This will be one of the Top five issues I bring to the devs.

Defense is only a problem because of the way mob aggro works. Mobs tend to attack whomever is in range first, rather than who is the real threat. That being so, the balancing factor here is the damage we are currently taking. Damage is currently out of balance, and defensive abilities would be a mitigating factor.

1. TKA-specific defensive skills seem 100% in-line with the nature of this profession. A TKA is a master of his body, and thus should behave so. There are two ways to accomplish this using in-game mechanics: skill mods and buffs. Going the skill mod route, you would have bonuses to defense, evade, blocking, and/or counterattacking. Going the buff route, you would have short-term defensive buffs that provide the equivalent of the skill mods for a short period of time.

2. Skill mods could be spread around the tree liberally. Evade mods probably belong in the balance tree, block mods in the power tree, and counterattack mods in the precision striking tree. Defense is a more generic mod, and I believe it's already applied by one of the four existing trees (not certain). Defensive buffs could also be appropriate in many trees, but this seems like something that is ideal for the meditation tree.

3. Adding defense is the balancing act. So long as the abilities are not too overpowering, no changes should be required elsewhere. Defense buffs are probably the easiest thing to achieve balance on. TKA already has huge range and damage (damage taken) disadvantages, so they're already in the hole.

I'll be master tka within the day or two, and from I've been seeing, the simpliest balance would be to increase the +mods. I'll explain why (without going into huge implementation things for programmers)..

1)TKAs find themselves tanking mobs in no more HAM than the ranged player or even non combat people like healers or entertainers, however aside from same "HP table" they are also no more of an advantage as far as armor goes. So the TKA is now taking massive dmg, and no "xp" given for taking those hits..yet they need to style (use their own ham AND take mob/npc damage) just to compete with xp from ranged users who typically just take ham damage. There is no incentive for a TKA to "tank" a mob if they are "no more a tank than anybody else". All this encourages me to do in groups is pull out a pistol and fire at the mobs alot safer.. same a healers, what incentive is there for healers to heal me as a tank if they want gun xp.. its not like the xp is shared once the mob is done, it's only damage based for combat skills or heal xp for healing/etc. I've lost alot of trust in healers lately who insist on shooting the mob than healing because they want gun xp while I take the full brunt of the damage [almost no other choice outside going pistol, at which case why even bother being a tka?]

2) Attacking while running. Ranged people can do this fairly well, melee for "realism" has to be near a mob in order to hit it, just logically. +Mod (or more) bonuses vs ranged would mean the melee user atleast can either run the other player out of ham bar on the chase, or they wont instant die in a few rounds kited around. Yes, there are "tactics" to use. However, in true nature of exploits in most games, if you can hit a mob and they can not hit you, it is an exploit. Imagine for a second if SWG were DAoC [before you flame, understand the point that I am attempting to make as to see why I say tka has almost no advantage or melees in general], you'd have wizards (gun users)in tank armor (chitin) firing off nukes (guns) while running on the same HP table (ham table) vs a player. The logic of knife in a gun fight holds weight, to an extent. If a TKA is NOT meant as a tank, then they should not be treated as one and need either +mods higher or increased speed to close in on their attacker. If TKAs were tanks then they'd have more HAM table or better armor which would counteract the fact they have no ranged. To those who say "you are a melee, you know you'd be kited", my question is "why is the combat class in game if it has no advantage? If I were a pistol user and you were a pistol user, I'd stand more of a chance vs you than if you were a pistol user and I was a melee user". Again, to those who say this is NOT a class game and more of a skill game. What you're essentially saying is a ranged person needs only ranged, and a melee needs melee and ranged to compete... what is the logic in those wasted points?

3) Ranged knockdown... fear kiting mobs... etc.This is pure and utter bs, the ADVANTAGE to ranged is having distance or you'd be a melee toe-to-toe. I see no logical reason anybody with a ranged wep should be able to fear mobs or from range knock them down. This is probably the only strong point of a melee, so you give the classes who can kite a melee, their only real solid skill/ability. Something is amiss. It does not add up. If this were to remain, again the bonuses vs these types of attacks needs to be way higher. As it is, closing the distance is hard enough without you being knocked over from range or forced to kneel/prone.

In conclusion, I have found so far (be master tka within the day or two at most), NO REASON to be a TKA in this game. You are no more a tank than anybody else, yet take the brunt of the damage, you have no ranged in pvp forcing you to also get ranged and waste your skill points when you shouldnt have bothered with tka in the first place, etc.. Everytime I login, I ask myself.. what advantages do I have. Often I find myself saying none.

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"If I were bringing a knife to a gun fight, believe me I'd try throwing the god **edit** thing, maybe I'll get lucky"

Apollyon Apocalypse
-very- soon to be Master TKA [1 skill block left]
Lowca

1. I think to make the TK more effective in combat, the following skill mods should be added.

+25 to Dodge, Block and Counterattack

FYI, the other elite melee professions get these.

Fencer +25 dodge
Pikeman +20 Block (can't understand why this isn't 25)
Swordsman +25 Counterattack


2. I would put..
Dodge in the Balance branch starting at Advanced. (5,5,5,10)
Counterattack in the Power branch starting at Advanced (5,5,5,10)
Block in the Precision branch starting at Advnaced (5,5,5,10)

3. To balance, I would give the other elite brawling professions the exact same defense. Why they don't all have it still boggles my mind.

I tottally concur that TK should offer dodges to represent 'reading' body language and evading blows and shots.

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Thunderwulf wrote:
1. I think to make the TK more effective in combat, the following skill mods should be added.

+25 to Dodge, Block and Counterattack

FYI, the other elite melee professions get these.

Fencer +25 dodge
Pikeman +20 Block (can't understand why this isn't 25)
Swordsman +25 Counterattack


2. I would put..
Dodge in the Balance branch starting at Advanced. (5,5,5,10)
Counterattack in the Power branch starting at Advanced (5,5,5,10)
Block in the Precision branch starting at Advnaced (5,5,5,10)

3. To balance, I would give the other elite brawling professions the exact same defense. Why they don't all have it still boggles my mind.

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Yes but they Do Not Get All 3!! I would support this only if the Fencer/Swordsman/Pikeman got all 3 also. Why should we be superior to a master swordsman/fencer/pikeman? *boggle* If all combat classes should be equal?

Actually, thats what I meant. All 4 elite brawling professions should have the same in defense in regards to dodge, block and counterattack.

Lol, Sorry T-Wulf I didn't see your 3 till I had already posted my message. I agree if melee classes should be the tanks then we definatley need the +mods to tank!

Hrm what if we had an ability opposite of beserk that increased our natural armor and/or resists so we take much less damage but do less damage. We would be able to provide much better support as a tank and still hold aggro even with the lower damage...

All the defensive mods in all practical matters still will only matter within melee range, a kiter will still be able the damage a melee whereas the melee can not damage a kiter. Fundamental problem, either kiters need to 1) move slower while running and shooting over their shoulders, 2) a speed boost maybe only usable every 20-30minutes even thats 1/2 speed of burst but does not count as the burst all get and lasts 10 seconds [or something along those lines to close distance], or 3) make snare traps thrown/usable in pvp off the brawler tree to ensare somebody to get to them.. it's NO different than ranged knockdown or ranged posture change.

I am not crying nerf anybody, I am not crying foul over tka. Rather trying to come up or brainstorm something productive to make them atleast a viable option for pvp or atleast pve, from what I see atleast -at the minute- there is no wheres near enough advantage to justify playing them as a combat class. I hold my own very well, however when large scale fights eventually will break out what am I going to do when there's a standoff and I'm at no greater defense/ham/armor than the guy next to me firing off bullets? Run across the battlefiend and find somebody to kick? That'll last all of about 20 seconds with no "melee toughness categorized from all other games".

I'm simply playing devil's advocate to a degree, to find a compromise. Just FYI I am within a day of Master TKA and atm have every intention of going ranged, had that plan even before game went retail. What I am looking at is class a needs class b to compete with class b (regardless of classes, could be any class). I do acknowledge healers/entertainers etc need an additional class to dmg in pvp, but one combat class should not require another combat class to compete with any single combat class [other than maybe bounty hunter or the such since that is more like 2 or 3 classes].

If I could dodge 1 out of ever 2 bullets, and could not hit you, guess who would still win. I am trying to not be biased being I am almost master tka, however I can share the experiences I've had and try to come to some type of compromise. I look at what classes can and can not do, and I see too many can nots with the TKA profession, and do not mean to upset anybody by it, just looking at the class for what it is and justification of.

You may not agree with me, but the problem itself is atleast understood but people have different opions of what "balance" would be. Maybe this thread will get some good ideas going as to making a melee "tank" want to "tank" if he is no more of a "tank", if he not as tough as a tank as seen in most games, where does their true advantage lay? Make traps at the very least practical for pvp, it's already in the brawler tree.

"If I brough a knife to a gun fight, believe me.. I'd try throwing the freakin' knife.. maybe I'll get lucky"

Apollyon Apocalypse
-very- soon to be Master TKA
Lowa

Since XP is damaged based you would have a big problem because nobody would want to tank and get hardly any XP while a ranged user sat back and had basically no risk and got all the reward. Just my prediction.

How about if TKA was good at dodging and counter attack (combat preminition, using opponents momentum against them), Fencer was good at Dodging and blocking(parrying), and swordman at blocking and counter attack(different parry)?

The easist fix is simply to give us a much higher evade rate, but melee and ranged. If we can't do range and have to close the distance to fight, then we should be able to knockstuf down and dodge hits a lot. We are masters of the body, meaning we really should be doging more -- being able to dodge ranged attacks more frequently would be a blessing as well.