Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: People don't like dizzy, thats fair. Is there an alternative though to stop kiting?
Nice post
/thumbs up
Only thing I don't like is that a Range class might get the idea to dabble in a melee profession in order to get this speed increase. This would kill the advantage.
In KOTOR there was an attack that would lunge the player forward to close the distance from range enemies. If we could get a sort of dash attack that would launch our character forward about 20 meters then I think we would solve the Dizzy problem.
Killtacular wrote:
are you serious?
you want people who fight with RANGED weapons not be able to fight from the optimum range of their gun...lol...no
since you are melee, you want to be able to fun faster so you can get into your desired range, pushing the ranged fighters out of theirs....no
Why did the one star bandit attack this guy? I'm sorry butKilltacular has a valid point. (I'm a TKM, not a ranged guy, so get over it.) The thrust of the original poster's argument is that melee and ranged should compete on a level playing field. The stated designof the game is clear, and SOE makes no applogies that ranged attacks are favored over melee ones. It's not "fair" or "balanced" for PvP-- it's a stated design objective -- learn to fight in conditions best suited to your advantages.
Logical fallacy:
What the original poster is in effect asking for is that the ranged player lose his advantage, (range), in order that the melee player can bring their advantage, (close in fighting), to bear. The ranged players could just as logically call for a "melee in my face" mitigation factor that says that if a melee player is within 10 meters of a ranged player, that the melee attacker would automatically miss more, and do damage in proportion to a rifle at 5 meters just to be "fair". Sound ridiculous?
Posts like the first one in the thread, while well intentioned, are logically EXACTLY the same as the "nerf TKA" posts that so many of us whine and moan about, only in reverse. Think about it before you start asking for more.
People don't like dizzy because once it kits them they can't fight back. That is because it's a really horrible skill that instantly takes the fun from the game. Now look at ALL melee professions, soon as someone kites we cannot fight back. We cannot run either unless we have burst run handy. It's frustrating and ultimately it means that in the GCW the melee professions are forced out of things completely. Can a ranged fighter attack from any range they want? Yes. Can a melee fighter attack from any range they want? No.
So the fact is that because you can't fight at your optimum range isn't a valid excuse, you can still fight. You can still keep your distance, you can still hit from 64m away with KD and posture down. A melee fighter can be kept at a distance and yet you don't think it's fair for us to be able to keep you within our range? That's unfair, thats one-sided and it's also bad gameplay. I tried to put this across rationally, giving all sides an even chance at putting up a fair fight and you ask if I'm serious? Go back to trolling another forum where your selfishness is tolerated. 
tka has weaknesses. if it didn't, i would rarely be killed, and take trips to the clone many times during pvp.
It's not just TKA it's all professions. Why do you think that Brawler has lunge? It's because it was the original skill intended forall melee professionsto be able to keep someone within striking distance. It's one thing to have a weakness, it's another to have a solid barrier that stops the profession from functioning. The fact is that there is already counters for dealing with melee opponents charging towards you, the KD and Supression fire skills. These are the counters available however they are not needed as simply running away is enough. Blast us from a distant, get in a vollye of fire before we get within range. Pin us down for a couple seconds to get even more free hits in. But at least allow us a chance to close the distance to give you a fair fight, you had your chance to hit us so let us have the same.
Message Edited by Tal-N on 02-18-2004 06:36 PM
I agree with the origional poster its a good idea.
Most people dont realize that lunge is a brawler skill not TKA.
Most people dont realize that KD+Dizzy hardly ever works on apropriate level mobs.
Most people dont realize that we have a double knockdown bug.
Most people dont realize that even /follow still allows a large critter to Kite us.
Er um well most people just dont realize : }
The idea of messing with Ranged so they have to stay within melee range ... or messing with melee so they can attack at range is nuts.
I am tired of people complaining that they get beat in different situations. That is the nature of the beast ... you have skill points to do different things. If you want to attack at range ... take a ranged skill. If you want to attack at melee ... take a melee skill. If you want to do both ... then do both skills.
You can either be a super-duper melee or a super-duper ranged ... or a pretty good at both. You can't have everything ... it doesn't work that way.
I am tired of people complaining that they get beat in different situations. That is the nature of the beast ... you have skill points to do different things. If you want to attack at range ... take a ranged skill. If you want to attack at melee ... take a melee skill. If you want to do both ... then do both skills.
However why bother with melee when range does everything? Every profession needs a purpose however all melee professions clearly are at a huge disatvantage in PvP. Why go melee againstwhen you can kite with far less risk? What role do they play in the GCW when it's just as easy to attack from range. If's fair enough to be defeated in different situations, but you should always be given a fighting chance because thats fun.
To turn your logic back on you, exactly what are the ranged fighters going to be defeated in?
You'd say ranged loses in melee.
Naturally and I agree, that is your weakness. However none of the melee professions are capable of getting into melee rangeonce someone starts running. It's a 99% certainty that once the ranged fighter runs away from the melee attacker it's now impossible for the ranged fighter to lose. The exception to this rule is that the ranged fighter has no burst run and the melee fighter does, but this is the ONLY time.
So no more weakness, complete and utter 'ownage'. Thats the problem, the ranged professions have a weakness which cannot be exploited so it's not a weakness at all. Melee professions need to be given the means to make use of such a weakness otherwise ranged professions have total domination in all situations when it comes to PvP and thus the GCW as a whole. So take other skills you'd scream, yes that true but why bother taking ranged skills and melee when you can do everything you want with the ranged ones. Melee is a dying breed as people realise how utterly impotent the professions are becoming, they're stagnating because of inability to be of any use compared to the all-powerfulranged professions. Indeed if you bring a knife to a gunfight you'd better be damned good with it, however it's a fact that even a master melee fighter is no match for a novice pistoleer or similar.
Message Edited by Tal-N on 02-18-2004 07:28 PM
The advantage to ranged attacks is supposed to be that you get first attack (actually often a few shots before they can get within range). In fact, if you're doing heavy damage or you have a ranged knockdown, that first attack is sometimes all you need to kill the guy.
The disadvantage to a ranged attack is supposed to be that once the opponent gets close you're at a disadvantage. With kiting, that's simply not the case.
Ranged professions should be required to stop moving to shoot. That's the only thing that would be fair. And no, it's not unrealistic, nobody can realistically run at full speed firing a gun and expect to actually hit anything. Plus this is a matter of game balance, making the game fun, not simulating real life.
The current system is a lose/lose situation. Either the melee knocks down the ranged person so they can't fight back, or the ranged person runs away from the melee person so they can't fight back. Either way, somebody is effectively out of the fight. Remove kiting and remove dizzy, and you have a situation where both people have a chance to fight.
. Leave it the way it is.
3D4D wrote:
Nice post
/thumbs up
Only thing I don't like is that a Range class might get the idea to dabble in a melee profession in order to get this speed increase. This would kill the advantage.
In KOTOR there was an attack that would lunge the player forward to close the distance from range enemies. If we could get a sort of dash attack that would launch our character forward about 20 meters then I think we would solve the Dizzy problem.
Put the skill or Skill mods in the Master Box of the Melee professions.. that would stop most of the Dabbling.
And to the original poster.. Good job, innovative approach and a decent Idea
K-U-D-O-S 
Im a tkm but im also a pistoleer and i have the smuggler pistol line. i did this because as a tkm i was constantly kited and my game was beginning to get boring. i did not want to drop tkm so i got creative. i still use tkm in combat as my first choice but slapping that pistol bleed which i get roughly 600 pts for and a low blow to allow me time to close distance just makes pvp more fun. however i like realism. if a rifleman shoots me from 64 m shame on me for not having center of being on but in real life can you punch soome one from that range? The answer to that question is no. also i want each of you that complain about the dizzy kd to stop and think fora second. ranged kds can knock usdown and there are ranged shots that dizzy even if it is not in the same skill tree you have points invest them. the only real profession that can complain about anything is the bounty hunter seeing ans they have no kd defense and lack the skill points to get much of anything anyway. granted they could go up the techniques line in pistol but what good does that do them their best weapon is the laser carbine with eye shot and the scatter has been nerfed.
well thats my thought son the matter