Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Teräs Käsi Community's Thoughts on 2-Handed.
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Kasamatsu
Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:56 pm
#1
I'm saying it everywhere I can, as my opinion is:
Screw 2-Handed!
Why?
Well its not my personal dislike of 2-handed swords. On the contrary, I love swords, and have a swordsman toon. I do not like the way the DEVs are setting up the brawler tree. To put it plainly, they really screwed up...
Fencer, TKA, Swordsman will be a new FOTM. If you actually THINK, you can get all 3 mastered under the current system. I HATE being involved in a FOTM. TKA should be THE TOP DOG brawler profession. In doing so we should be a Hybred Bralwer Class. (I don't like loosing out on more skillpoints, but at least it will help keep some of the 1337 stackers out)
Marksmen have an elite hybred profession in BH... what about us brawlers?
What should our hybred pre-req be?
Medic General Healing Support is my vote. Knowledge of physiology... how to use it, break it, and fix it.
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What SHOULD the brawler pre-reqs look like?
Suggestion 1: Basic Circular Support Scheme (I dont like it but I'll leave it as a point for thought)
Unarmed + Medic General Healing = TKA -> also [Unarmed + Ranged Support = Commando] [Unarmed + Pistols = Smuggler]
1-Hand + Polearm = Fencer
2-Hand + Polearm = Pikeman
1-Hand + 2-Hand = Sordsman
Suggestion 2: Consistent with the Marksman Tree (better, but still stale... like the marksman tree)
Unarmed + Medic General Healing = TKA
Unarmed + 1-Hand = Fencer
Unarmed + 2-Hand = Swordsman
Unarmed + Polearm = Pikeman
Suggestion 3: My personal Preference for continuity and for the prevention of stacking 3 elite masteries.
Unarmed + Medic General Healing = TKA
1-Hand + 2-Hand = Swordsman [anyone who knows swords (not fencing) knows you use one hand sometimes and 2-hands sometimes]
Unarmed + 1-Hand = Fencer [When using only one hand you need to learn what to do with the one not holding a weapon, and how to trap/ attack with it]
2-Hand + Polearms = Pikeman [you use two hands to wield a pike (be it a staff or long vibro axe) sometimes... seems logical to me.]
The unfortunate thing is that once again SOE gives out limited information so that I can't say for sure that it should be this way, but based upon the limited info I have, this is what I think.
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If you are a fellow loyal TKM and agree join me in telling the DEVs to:
think things through a bit more
and
take 2-handed, turn it sideways, and shove ... !
If you don't agree you can no longer just one star me and hide, so argue your point... preferably using paragraphs and punctuation.
Kasamatsu
Screw 2-Handed!
Why?
Well its not my personal dislike of 2-handed swords. On the contrary, I love swords, and have a swordsman toon. I do not like the way the DEVs are setting up the brawler tree. To put it plainly, they really screwed up...
Fencer, TKA, Swordsman will be a new FOTM. If you actually THINK, you can get all 3 mastered under the current system. I HATE being involved in a FOTM. TKA should be THE TOP DOG brawler profession. In doing so we should be a Hybred Bralwer Class. (I don't like loosing out on more skillpoints, but at least it will help keep some of the 1337 stackers out)
Marksmen have an elite hybred profession in BH... what about us brawlers?
What should our hybred pre-req be?
Medic General Healing Support is my vote. Knowledge of physiology... how to use it, break it, and fix it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What SHOULD the brawler pre-reqs look like?
Suggestion 1: Basic Circular Support Scheme (I dont like it but I'll leave it as a point for thought)
Unarmed + Medic General Healing = TKA -> also [Unarmed + Ranged Support = Commando] [Unarmed + Pistols = Smuggler]
1-Hand + Polearm = Fencer
2-Hand + Polearm = Pikeman
1-Hand + 2-Hand = Sordsman
Suggestion 2: Consistent with the Marksman Tree (better, but still stale... like the marksman tree)
Unarmed + Medic General Healing = TKA
Unarmed + 1-Hand = Fencer
Unarmed + 2-Hand = Swordsman
Unarmed + Polearm = Pikeman
Suggestion 3: My personal Preference for continuity and for the prevention of stacking 3 elite masteries.
Unarmed + Medic General Healing = TKA
1-Hand + 2-Hand = Swordsman [anyone who knows swords (not fencing) knows you use one hand sometimes and 2-hands sometimes]
Unarmed + 1-Hand = Fencer [When using only one hand you need to learn what to do with the one not holding a weapon, and how to trap/ attack with it]
2-Hand + Polearms = Pikeman [you use two hands to wield a pike (be it a staff or long vibro axe) sometimes... seems logical to me.]
The unfortunate thing is that once again SOE gives out limited information so that I can't say for sure that it should be this way, but based upon the limited info I have, this is what I think.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a fellow loyal TKM and agree join me in telling the DEVs to:
think things through a bit more
and
take 2-handed, turn it sideways, and shove ... !
If you don't agree you can no longer just one star me and hide, so argue your point... preferably using paragraphs and punctuation.
Kasamatsu
Message Edited by Kasamatsu on 03-30-2005 08:21 AM
Kasamatsu
Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:24 am
#2
Bounty Hunter now ONLY requires Ranged Support and Exploration in the new system. There are no longer requirements for Mastering ANY Novice Profession that I can see.
Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to have TKA (as a hybred elite profession) to be every bit as good as a BH. We should be able to stand toe to toe with a Jedi... but not necessarilly win IMO. I don't see TKA as a damage dealer. For my views on what TKA should be refer here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=teras_kasi_artist&message.id=96938
Ranged Support is just a bland BS filler used by those who lack good ideas. I don't want a "melee support" line. If I could totally revamp the game I would do some things different with the melee professions, however because its not fair to totally eliminate a whole elite profession my design won't work.
As for Pikes... That is probibly the toughest one. I wouldn't be oppposed to ammending Option #3 to Pikes requiring 1-hand and polearms... as there are one handed staff maneuvers as well. One or two handed would work just fine. If they want to eliminate triple combat masteries... then they sure as hell should be sure they do it right... as it stands now SOE screwed up!
Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to have TKA (as a hybred elite profession) to be every bit as good as a BH. We should be able to stand toe to toe with a Jedi... but not necessarilly win IMO. I don't see TKA as a damage dealer. For my views on what TKA should be refer here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=teras_kasi_artist&message.id=96938
Ranged Support is just a bland BS filler used by those who lack good ideas. I don't want a "melee support" line. If I could totally revamp the game I would do some things different with the melee professions, however because its not fair to totally eliminate a whole elite profession my design won't work.
As for Pikes... That is probibly the toughest one. I wouldn't be oppposed to ammending Option #3 to Pikes requiring 1-hand and polearms... as there are one handed staff maneuvers as well. One or two handed would work just fine. If they want to eliminate triple combat masteries... then they sure as hell should be sure they do it right... as it stands now SOE screwed up!
LordBranamar
Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:15 pm
#3
Basic premise behind expanding TK is that the profession actually has a Stars Wars history.
Everything else is cookie cutter professions. 1set of armor,add a couple weapons,mix it up with a few specials,and give it an extravagent name. This is the recipe for almost all the classes.
I don't mind the extra defense to be honest, I just don't agree that TK should do merely moderate dmg. This profession should stand like MBH and be able to stand toe to toe with any profession on the server.
To make things fair you really should have to master brawler and the survival line of scout to be eligible for TK. This would give commando's a nerf and allow TK to receive a boost in some overall damage dealing. Just a thought though..............
These Dev's are showing how shallow their respective gene pools are and it saddens me. Who's taking bets on how long it will take before servers have to start merging????? I put my money on 4 months.
Everything else is cookie cutter professions. 1set of armor,add a couple weapons,mix it up with a few specials,and give it an extravagent name. This is the recipe for almost all the classes.
I don't mind the extra defense to be honest, I just don't agree that TK should do merely moderate dmg. This profession should stand like MBH and be able to stand toe to toe with any profession on the server.
To make things fair you really should have to master brawler and the survival line of scout to be eligible for TK. This would give commando's a nerf and allow TK to receive a boost in some overall damage dealing. Just a thought though..............
These Dev's are showing how shallow their respective gene pools are and it saddens me. Who's taking bets on how long it will take before servers have to start merging????? I put my money on 4 months.
SITHDUKE
Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:59 pm
#4
What about Merging Twohanded & Polearm (Since Polearm are twohaned anyways) and in the slot of Polearm creating a Melee Support line similar to Ranged Support only a Melee Version. 
jnewlo
Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:26 am
#5
Based on what I have read (the combat upgrade document & several posts), I have to admit i am not loking forward to the CU. Like many, I DO NOT understand the logic behind 2-handed being prereq for TKA. The upgrade states the goal is for the professions to make more sense and to be true to the spirit of each prof. 2-handed makes NO sense. TKA's being combat tanks and specializing in defense, there is bound to be a branch that better suits our role.
All that being said, I feel that it will be near impossible to judge such wide sweeping changes without experincing them first hand. In my opinion, there a few things to remember;
1. Few are the ones that enjoy change, of any kind.
2. SOE has not provided enough information to make an informed decision, just enough to jump to conclusions.
I think it is safe to say what ever comes out of CU and is placed in live, there will be things that need to be changed. For myself, I will reserve judgement until the CU goes into live. I am not overly excited about this change, yet it may well turn out to be a great thing. Time will tell.
My Humble opinion,
Kenru Bonath
Imperial Staff Corporal, CIO
TKA 0-1-1-1
Medic 3-3-3-4.
.
valetman
Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:13 am
#7
Firstly, they clearly stated that you could not master 3 proffs, so no one will be tkm / swords/ fencer.
I know you THINK you can, but you wont be able to, thats the whole point of adding extra skill points.
Now me, I havent a problem with costing more points, I do have a problem with those points not being useful though.
In my opinion, those extra points should be floating.
IE you can pick any line to fit your template, but you must have 2 lines of brawler to get tkn.
My template is tkm/swords so remains largely unaffected, but that isnt the point. Extra skill point cost isnt a problem, wasted skill points are.
Having said that, if the new skill trees include ways to use specials from that 2 handed tree with unarmed or a knuckler then I will reconsider.
truth is until it goes onto TC later (hopefully) today we truly dont know enough to make a full judgement.
I know you THINK you can, but you wont be able to, thats the whole point of adding extra skill points.
Now me, I havent a problem with costing more points, I do have a problem with those points not being useful though.
In my opinion, those extra points should be floating.
IE you can pick any line to fit your template, but you must have 2 lines of brawler to get tkn.
My template is tkm/swords so remains largely unaffected, but that isnt the point. Extra skill point cost isnt a problem, wasted skill points are.
Having said that, if the new skill trees include ways to use specials from that 2 handed tree with unarmed or a knuckler then I will reconsider.
truth is until it goes onto TC later (hopefully) today we truly dont know enough to make a full judgement.
spriggs
Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:09 am
#8
I think I'm going to cry... lol... jk.
I do think that the new prereq's suck. Right now I'm master TK/dancer. Yeah, I said it.... I'm a master dancer(with 4/0/4/0 in music). I started my character off wanting just to be an ent, but then was introduced to the GREAT profession of TK. TK is the one thing that I won't give up. I'll give up the ent business to keep my TK, but dropping ent to do some crap that I have no interest in whatsoever just to keep my TKM status is crap. I understand the need to change things up a bit, but when is swordsman or fencer a unarmed profession?
Why fix something that isn't broke? There's other things on SWG that need fixing and are problems that happen all too often. Why not fix those problems before creating new ones? And then there's problems that they fix that now they are wanting to get rid of totally... like they changed the times of mind buffs and now where is that going?
LetTK be the elite profession that it is and deserves to be.
erin
(eclipse)
Tyyylowyspetily
Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:30 am
#9
This is my second time around with TKM. I regretted giving it up for the hologrind, and returned in time to see one of my favorite professions go through serious changes. Of course, the same can be said for all combat classes, and to a lesser extent, all crafting classes, since the vast majoirty of crafted goods go to support the changing combat classes in game.
Swords as a pre req?
I don't see a problem with this. In our world, many open hand fighting schools originate from sword styles. The movements, and handstrikes are taken directly from weapon forms. I am sure many in this forum are familiar with the term "knife hand" to describe a specificorientation of the hand while delivering a blow. The fact, is all elite professions are now going to require 2 prereq skill trees, and they all have to have the same skill cost requirements, if we are going to sustain balance in the long term. No longer will any profession be able to use the mantra "we have a greater skill cost requirement, therefore, we should be special." The emphasis will be on balance between professions, rather than trying to balance skill point investment vs benefit. This, IMHO is a very positive step.
While it is still true that hybrid professions will require 15 more points than a pure melee or pure ranged class, I would argue that such a small difference is likely to be much better recieved within those communities, provided the specialized roles those players have long sought are effectively addressed in the upcoming CURB. Certainly, the proposed changes are preferable to the current skill point disparity.
Will I keep TKM post CURB? I don't know yet. The changes planned, have caused me to look at classes I would not have glanced more than once at in the current system. There are so many interesting ways to combine basic concepts of what each class will be in a few short weeks. Do I like needing to sink 15 more points to maintain TKM? Not really. This is a very small price to pay, however, if it will result in every player feeling that their prefered playstyle can be effective, and that no one class is more powerful or more usefull than another.
Lolateah
Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:02 am
#10
Nothing anyone can do about it, TKA will have a new branch whether we like it or not...
no extra skill points (ok we supposedly will automatically get it if we are a master *rolls eyes*)
hate the idea! Why don't they just nerf TKA and make it straight out Brawler instead. *shrugs*
no extra skill points (ok we supposedly will automatically get it if we are a master *rolls eyes*)
hate the idea! Why don't they just nerf TKA and make it straight out Brawler instead. *shrugs*
seant9
Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:02 am
#12
You are all forgetting that many special attacks are no longer weapon dependent. Which means that in all likelihood we will benefit from the the 2H sword tree by being able to use the specials unarmed. I really don't see a problem with this requirement, especially considering that most hard core TKAs will master brawler anyway to get the benefits from that master box. It also appears to me that under CURB rules, double combat mastery is encouraged. Since many specials are no longer weapon dependent, I can see how being a Master TKA/Master (other melee profession) will increase the damage you can do while still allowing you to fight unarmed or with a knuckler. We won't know for sure until the profession docs come out. I really wish everyone would look at the big picture and think it through before putting Chicken Little to shame.
Xeranx
Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:28 am
#13
I don't think I like what I'm seeing here. Since TKA was fixed the developers clearly neglected the other melee professions. Now I'm seeing people ask that TKA be on the same level as BH. Can someone explain why that is and how it'll help anybody else but ourselves?
TKA, Fencer, Swordsman, and Pikeman deserve to be on the same level though others should be more effective than the other. One should not clearly outshine the other. It forces the FOTM mentality that soooo many loathe. I'm really tired of seeing such uniformity. The only reason people are for TKA is because it's the only melee profession that works well.
TKA, Fencer, Swordsman, and Pikeman deserve to be on the same level though others should be more effective than the other. One should not clearly outshine the other. It forces the FOTM mentality that soooo many loathe. I'm really tired of seeing such uniformity. The only reason people are for TKA is because it's the only melee profession that works well.
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