Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: A TKM template from a PVPer's prespective
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Jedi-scout
Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:10 am
#1
I have viewed several ideas expressed on this board in regards to tka templates. As a long running tkm, I have dabbled in many different hybrids to try to establish a stronger pvp template with TKM in mind. After several drafts, I have come to the conclusion that aside from having a PVP template, it's important to know the weaknesses and limitations, as well as strengths of the template you choose. With that said, the following is my template along with an explanation of the benefits of such a template.
TKM, 4 0 3 0 Doctor, 0 0 0 4 Combat Medic,
points remaining: 0
Benefits of TKM:
1. The ability to spam states ( intimidate is your friend,TKM's have the ability to land every state type on a target including bleed (ua3 required for bleed) )
2. Two posture change attacks ( with unarmed lunge's range of 15m followed by KD2, your opponents will tend to be fighting on their backs or knees, especially ranged professions)
3. Highest toughness rating in game ( Higher than even jedi's, TKM have the ability to last a considerably long time in melee encounter's especially vs jedi)
4. You can taget every pool. ( bodyhit,leghit,headhit, although headhit is most commonly used, it is certainly an asset to have the option of targeting whichever pool may be weakest)
5. Powerboost ( Racial limitations aside, this is by far one of the best tools in a TKM's arsenal. The ability to raise all 3 pools for 10 minutes is indeed an awesome skill)
6. Force of will ( Your synthsteak is gone, PSG has been destroyed, Muon downer has kicked in, and you have 5-6 rifleman gunning at your head, everyone else in this scenario would most likelybe dead, except a FOW using TKM)
**special note on #6 - Force of will is around 98% effective at TKM, and about 50% effective without)
Benefits of Doc:
1. Curing all states ( remember you can't meditate while stated, and are easier to hit )
2. Curing all dots ( although you can meditate most dots, poison, disease, you will find it near impossible to do so while in combat, especially large scalePVP, and we all know you cannot meditate while on fire)
3. The ability to save your teammates with the above mentioned skills ( this really goes without saying but sometimes needs to be said)
4.Med use of 80 affords you the ability to use effective cure packs ( cure poison rating 515+ is possible on an 80med use pack)
5. Heal thyself
Benefits of CM:
1. Terrain Negotiation +40 ( Burst run longer and faster, go uphill with the greatest of ease, and catch your targets where most others wouldn't, being able to cure states( your doc portion)is key in this ability as well)
2. CM use 75 and effectiveness +5 ( allows you to use area's A-C, Single's A-C, all of which are stackable, here is an example:
single C, range 40-45m(nerf has been added to equation)effective 340 = 351 tic + area C, range 40-45meffective 200= 210 tic(area effected) total poison tic dmg / 10 seconds = 561, keep in mind you can still stack area b's effect 150 is do-able as well as single b's same effect rating, potency 105+ is crucial.Now try this on a KD victim with the ability to spam unarmeddizzy1 in between landing each poison and watch their mind pool drop. Remember you will have 4 seconds in between each poison application at this level)
3. Allows a melee to use a ranged attack without switching weapons and losing TKM def bonuses as a result ( the 3 second timer now placed on weapon switching has effected alot of PVP template's, not this one. You will never lose your TKM base defenses as you won't need to switch weapons at any time)
4. Warcry ( although it has been nerfed to an extent and should fall under the TKM benefits, the ability to warcry to get your poisons to tic without the worry of it being cured is still a huge asset, warcry will now break after a poison tics off, hwoever, the purpose of warcry is to get that tic off to begin with.)
Limitations and weaknesses:
Always remember that this is still a melee profession, it is best suited for inside bases, cantinas and starports. Most ranged won't step foot inside any of these locations for that very same reason. With that said, being out in the open is a huge liability. Try to use line of sight in your favor, know when to utilize your burst run (remember the CM portion?), and use the terrain in your favor, you can after all out terrain most. Unarmedlunge is your friend out in the open but don't ever spam it, keep your targets intimidated at all times and don't let them Kite you to your death.
There are many types of templates that work well with TKM. Try them out to find your niche. I have found this to be an awesome template for PVP ( at its current state) and find myself surviving alot longer as a result. In any case, I hope this gives people an idea of what TKM is capable of when thought out with other professions in mind.
All the best,
/bow4
Message Edited by Jedi-scout on 07-18-2004 01:11 PM
herderman
Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:16 am
#2
i love this template but i don't want to give up mine but im definitley thinking about it!
Jedi-scout
Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:14 am
#3
herderman wrote:
i love this template but i don't want to give up mine but im definitley thinking about it!
It's just as effective in PVE, take Nighsisters for example, you can kill every kind, elders are of course the exception. A protector with a good poison stack on it, will die in about 1-2 minutes.
When I used to kill elders I had 4 4 0 4 CM / TKM with 1 0 1 4 in marksman as a template. you can finish off that 1 mind pool with either a speedy DLT20 or DH17 carbine. With a warcry/intimidation macro running, poison and disease stackit would take on avg about 30-35 minutes to take one down. If you time your buffs right its a great way to end your looting session. It's not as effective of a template in PVP as dots are too common.
teeth0r
Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:16 pm
#4
Nice template.. however you will have low defenses (you'll have to be on Thakitillo constantly or you will be going down - and you'll have no way to stop Lunge attacks), and I don't really see the point of 0004 CM - sure you can toss poisons, but they will have very poor ticks - best to let the real CM in the group get the poisons in - he/she will over-write yours anyway. How about 0400 CM instead so you can heal your friends mind pools? That would be more handy I'd say.
Jedi-scout
Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:55 pm
#5
teeth0r wrote:
Nice template.. however you will have low defenses (you'll have to be on Thakitillo constantly or you will be going down - and you'll have no way to stop Lunge attacks), and I don't really see the point of 0004 CM - sure you can toss poisons, but they will have very poor ticks - best to let the real CM in the group get the poisons in - he/she will over-write yours anyway. How about 0400 CM instead so you can heal your friends mind pools? That would be more handy I'd say.
Did you even read the CM portion of this thread? Also explain how you intend to do damage. In regards to defenses, which TKM's have an abundance of so no idea what you are referring to, what would you suggest? Keep in mind defenses DO NOT stack anymore.
As for Thakitillo, I am an avid fan of the stuff, how is it a hinderance?
teeth0r
Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:12 pm
#6
You're not helping in a group if you're spending time throwing poisons that the dedicated CMs just over-write. TKMs do not have abundant defenses. I am a TKM with 3400 Fencer, and I'd still like to have more. However with the defenses I do have, I rarely if ever get brought down by KD or Lunge even without using Thakitillo- which leaves my food bar available for other things.
Also explain how you intend to do damage.
No-one does damage these days apart from dedicated CMs and Riflemen, if you're putting TKM in your template your job is to charge into the enemy and try to control/disrupt/kd their CM/RMs so thatyour CM/RMs can double/triple/quadruple team them. That's the only way to quickly kill well-prepared PVPers today.
If you insist on spending points in partial CM at the expense of defenses, I reckon a mind heal is more useful - it's very rare to have a meleer that can heal a fellow meleers mind, usually the CMs are further away from the action and don't do much emergency mind healing.
Jedi-scout
Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:14 pm
#7
teeth0r wrote:
You're not helping in a group if you're spending time throwing poisons that the dedicated CMs just over-write. TKMs do not have abundant defenses. I am a TKM with 3400 Fencer, and I'd still like to have more. However with the defenses I do have, I rarely if ever get brought down by KD or Lunge even without using Thakitillo- which leaves my food bar available for other things.
First and foremost, you will tank but do zero dmg to anyone period with your template.
Second, your not there to spam poisons if you have an MCM in group, you are there to spam states, your poison is your dmg back-up. CM'S have range nerfs now.
Your not being KD'd due to your fencer, your defenses dont stack contrary to what you think. Your defenses will only apply to the weapon equipped. As for dedicated CM's, in case you have forgotten they have been severely range nerfed, meaning they are within rangeto get headshot spammed and they can no longer havlat spam. They are the ones with zero defense mods, and since there is no timer on mind heals and the fact MCM's gain a higher heal mod than someone with 0 4 0 0, the mere fact you would mention this is somewhat ludicrous.
Also explain how you intend to do damage.
No-one does damage these days apart from dedicated CMs and Riflemen, if you're putting TKM in your template your job is to charge into the enemy and try to control/disrupt/kd their CM/RMs so thatyour CM/RMs can double/triple/quadruple team them. That's the only way to quickly kill well-prepared PVPers today.
You just proved my point with the first line in this paragraph in regards to damage. A TKM's job is to spam states not spam KD, when carbineers or other ranged / meleeprofessions have a vast amount of posture changes. All someone needs is Thakitillo and your stuck spamming a posture change that wont work, or one that will disrupt a teamates and cancel it out all together,when a blind/stun/intimidate will be ten times more effective on a Rifleman. If you are talking about large scale PVP, then this whole statement is severely flawed. And whats going to happen once your MCM goes down? Not to mention the fact an MCM can't be everywhere as they have limits, as I said, to their range? Besides most MCM's will spam area poisons AND diseases, if you know your role you would spam singles as it WILL stack.
If you insist on spending points in partial CM at the expense of defenses, I reckon a mind heal is more useful - it's very rare to have a meleer that can heal a fellow meleers mind, usually the CMs are further away from the action and don't do much emergency mind healing.
I do like the option of mindheal do not get me wrong. As a TKM you can simply meditate the wounds, however you keep thinking its all about the poisons when thats 50% of the 0 0 0 4 CM line. You totally neglected the part of terrain negotiation, you are not going to always have a squad leader available, and on a solo front your toast against any ranged with next to no terrain neg. And if you want to talk about support, what are the chances you will need to mind heal someone if your can cure their dots?
In closing this is a balanced group and solo template, if you feel I am wrong, simply head to Bloodfin forums and ask if I am a factor in PVP or not. In any case rather than try to shoot down someone's template, perhaps a more constructive approach would be to simply post your own in the same format. Trying to dictate to someone that their template is flawed because you don't like it is not the right approach. Again, head to Bloodfin and ask around, you will be most surprised at the response.
DhSmuggler
Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:24 pm
#8
I would have to say that this is not a shabby template at all
BUT
I see two problems with it....well not with the template itself but its weaknesses...
M. rif / Master doc
or
MCM / Master doc
1) your psns are useless cuz he can heal them away.....
and the rifleman can out dmg you for mind... but i like the template a lot...fun fun
Jedi-scout
Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:17 pm
#9
DhSmuggler wrote:
I would have to say that this is not a shabby template at all
BUT
I see two problems with it....well not with the template itself but its weaknesses...
M. rif / Master doc
or
MCM / Master doc
1) your psns are useless cuz he can heal them away.....
and the rifleman can out dmg you for mind... but i like the template a lot...fun fun
In regards to M rifle/ M docI think it wouldentirely be dependent on alot of variables, environment being a key factor, PSG's can help vs rifle's they can't vs kinetic is one example.
In regards to MCM / Mdoc, the only damage they can do is in factcurable, with the CM nerf his range is severly limited. It would be a matter of time before you caught up to his poison or disease throw pauses, as curing doesn't stop you in your tracks. Eventually you would get within range to spam posture changes and states to a degree that would leave you in the driver's seat. MCM only has ranged defense, they are extremely vulnerable to melee.
Assuming either template has 90% kinetic helms, they are still taking, (after synthsteak)
an avg of 100+ dmg / second.
Although I will admit, rifle/doc's are very hard to take down if played right, regardless of the template against.
MagicalHAt
Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:33 pm
#10
What do you mean defenses dont stack?????
Mine are stacking right now.....
And I would be weary of CM as it seems its to be nerfed in the near future.....
You could do
TKM/Doc 4000/Fencer 4430 that gives you massive defense and the cures still...
Any good doc can make Med use 55 Poision and disease cure b'swith janta blood.
Or
TKM/Doc 4030/Fencer 4400
That gives you the med use and the extra defenses.
Message Edited by MagicalHAt on 07-18-2004 08:45 PM
Jedi-scout
Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:35 pm
#11
MagicalHAt wrote:
What do you mean defenses dont stack?????
Mine are stacking right now.....
This is actually a big error on my part, for some reason I was thinking of toughness rating. Yes def mods will stack until cap is reached.
And I would be weary of CM as it seems its to be nerfed in the near future.....
Any future changes won't occur until after JTL
You could do
TKM/Doc 4000/Fencer 4430 that gives you massive defense and the cures still...
You would be difficult to KD or posture change, your melee def is overcapped, you have zero def vs ranged, you have zero terrain neg. Where is the damage coming from in this template?
Any good doc can make Med use 55 Poision and disease cure b'swith janta blood.
Even with janta blood, all the points spent into bringing it to 55 med use would really make the cure useless.
Or
TKM/Doc 4030/Fencer 4400
That gives you the med use and the extra defenses.
This makes more sense to me, however there is still an issue with damage and for that matter accuracy in fencer.
Message Edited by MagicalHAt on 07-18-2004 08:45 PM
I like the defensive aspects of either template, the costs for melee def take away any ranged def or attacks. Damage also becomes a serious issue. Granted there are dot fencer weapons out there, but there is also a 3 second timer on weapon switching, as well as an issue on accuracy. You would tank for sure, but there wouldnt be much damage behind it if any.
MagicalHAt
Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:10 pm
#12
Jedi-scout wrote:
MagicalHAt wrote:
What do you mean defenses dont stack?????
Mine are stacking right now.....
This is actually a big error on my part, for some reason I was thinking of toughness rating. Yes def mods will stack until cap is reached.
And I would be weary of CM as it seems its to be nerfed in the near future.....
Any future changes won't occur until after JTL
You could do
TKM/Doc 4000/Fencer 4430 that gives you massive defense and the cures still...
You would be difficult to KD or posture change, your melee def is overcapped, you have zero def vs ranged, you have zero terrain neg. Where is the damage coming from in this template?
Any good doc can make Med use 55 Poision and disease cure b'swith janta blood.
Even with janta blood, all the points spent into bringing it to 55 med use would really make the cure useless.
Or
TKM/Doc 4030/Fencer 4400
That gives you the med use and the extra defenses.
This makes more sense to me, however there is still an issue with damage and for that matter accuracy in fencer.
Message Edited by MagicalHAt on 07-18-2004 08:45 PM
I like the defensive aspects of either template, the costs for melee def take away any ranged def or attacks. Damage also becomes a serious issue. Granted there are dot fencer weapons out there, but there is also a 3 second timer on weapon switching, as well as an issue on accuracy. You would tank for sure, but there wouldnt be much damage behind it if any.
hm hm with the stacked defenses you have 114+ ranged defense and 136+ meele defense
I think I am going to go with the last template I menitioned to you.
TKM/Doc 4030/Fencer 4400
That gives you the med use and the extra defenses.
Terrain Nego?
Was great back before vehicles now its sorta useless IMHO.
In my experenices I have yet to fight in a hilly area.
ALL player citys were raids occur are flat.
Other fights occur for me in the major citys
Thats it.
Your over rating Fencer and Underating TKM imho
99.9% of pvperes today are wearing STUN suits
No stun baton is AP 1 so its reduced by 50% right there.
The rest is 36% stun and then with a 50% stun gen.
The base is 66% and VK's are AP1
The damage comes from outlasting your opponet and from Head hit.
teeth0r
Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:51 am
#13
Ok, it's on now..
Jedi-scout wrote:
First and foremost, you will tank but do zero dmg to anyone period with your template.
That's what I said in my post. Err?
Second, your not there to spam poisons if you have an MCM in group, you are there to spam states, your poison is your dmg back-up.
That's also what I said in my post.. if you are arguing with me, why are you using my arguments?
CM'S have range nerfs now.
Irrelevant.
Your not being KD'd due to your fencer, your defenses dont stack contrary to what you think.
Completely wrong. I have 3400 Fencer which gives me melee def, ranged def and state defs which stack with any profession.
Your defenses will only apply to the weapon equipped.
That's only Dodge, Counterattack and Block, of which I have zero in my template as they don't work with TKM.
As for dedicated CM's, in case you have forgotten they have been severely range nerfed, meaning they are within rangeto get headshot spammed and they can no longer havlat spam. They are the ones with zero defense mods, and since there is no timer on mind heals and the fact MCM's gain a higher heal mod than someone with 0 4 0 0, the mere fact you would mention this is somewhat ludicrous.
This makes no sense whatsoever. CMs in the past rarely if ever spent the entire fight standing 90m away from the enemy, most of the time both sides rushed at each other to kill each others CMs. Either way, what does this have to do with your template. You advocate CM 0004 so you can throw low-tick poisons that get over-written by the dedicated CMs and therefore are pointless. I'm saying that if you *insist* on putting CM in your template (I sure as hell wouldn't, and don't) then the most useful skill to get with the 14 points you have available is the mind heal 0400.
You just proved my point with the first line in this paragraph in regards to damage. A TKM's job is to spam states not spam KD, when carbineers or other ranged / meleeprofessions have a vast amount of posture changes.
Oh please. Carbineers are almost extinct in PVP, the only ranged profession you will see in a top PVP squad is Rifleman, and they have no useful posture down attacks. The low accuracy of Ranged professions in general also means they are nowhere near as good at applying posture states as melees. They are also completely useless vs Jedi. Right now if you want to KD/posture down reliably TKM is the way to go. You intimidate, the riflemen dizzy, you KD or Lunge and get everyone to focus their fire so the target is dead before they can get up.
All someone needs is Thakitillo and your stuck spamming a posture change that wont work, or one that will disrupt a teamates and cancel it out all together,when a blind/stun/intimidate will be ten times more effective on a Rifleman.
Posture down is extremely effective coupled with dizzy, which is easy to apply as a TKM, or can be applied wholesale by the RMs on your own side. As a TKM your job is to intimidate them, then get them on the ground so they cannot escape, and can be killed more quickly. Either way, this talking about TKM skills is completely beside the point. You posted your template and I am critizing the lack of defenses and the CM component of it.. we both like and use TKM.
If you are talking about large scale PVP, then this whole statement is severely flawed. And whats going to happen once your MCM goes down? Not to mention the fact an MCM can't be everywhere as they have limits, as I said, to their range?
That's not how a melee should be thinking, your job is to take down their CM before they take down yours.Again, a low-tick single poison isn't going to help you very much. Master CMs still complain about their DPS, the DPS of 0004 CM is almost nothing by comparison. Better to have more defenses, or if you insist on CM, better to be able to throw out a mind heal to your fellow melees as you try to take down the enemy RM/CMs, in my view.
I do like the option of mindheal do not get me wrong. As a TKM you can simply meditate the wounds, however you keep thinking its all about the poisons when thats 50% of the 0 0 0 4 CM line. You totally neglected the part of terrain negotiation, you are not going to always have a squad leader available, and on a solo front your toast against any ranged with next to no terrain neg.
You have a point there, however personally I am rarely without a Squadleader in group PVP. In the rare situations where I'm in a group fight without a Squadleader, and a ranged is trying to kite me upa hill..I'll just let him go tbh. He can't force me to fight with all the cover a player city provides. As for solo, I don't solo.. it's rather pointless with the number of Jedi Knights on my server.
And if you want to talk about support, what are the chances you will need to mind heal someone if your can cure their dots?
Depends on context.. if everyone in your group gets cured before the poison ticks then it's all good. However just a couple of ticks of a spider poison can seriously weaken most non-docs. Since about 90% of PVP deaths come about by mind incaps it stands to reason that having a mind heal on a melee char who would be naturally close to the action would be handy. However as I said, I prefer the extra defenses of Fencer.
In closing this is a balanced group and solo template, if you feel I am wrong, simply head to Bloodfin forums and ask if I am a factor in PVP or not.
This isn't a question of 'wrong' or 'right', and I'll be having this discussion here, in this forum, where you started it.
In any case rather than try to shoot down someone's template, perhaps a more constructive approach would be to simply post your own in the same format.
No it wouldn't. You posted this template for a critique, and that's what you're getting. If you don't like what people have to say about it - tough. We're not hear to pander to you. My initial post and this one are both full of constructive criticism.
Trying to dictate to someone that their template is flawed because you don't like it is not the right approach.
LOL! Why else would I make a post detailing what I thought were the flaws in your template? You can disagree with whatI say and post rebuttals if you wish. You started this by posting the template, if you don't like what I have to say, fine, but don't presume to tell me what I can and cannot say.
Again, head to Bloodfin and ask around, you will be most surprised at the response.
I could care less what your friends think about you. If you think that criticizing your template is the same as critizing YOU as a person, you need to get some thicker skin.
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