Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: PVP A NERF TO TKA? (read this, you'll like it)
I will address several different issues/opinions of a few Master's in the TKA profession.
I would like to start with an overview of what a TANK has meant to games since the beginning of time.
1) A tank is a warrior who fights at the head of his pack. He is the the muscle, the iron hand, the master of melee....by god, he is the TANK. In every game that I have ever played, any character I have advanced through lvl's, through skill trees, or whatever other means....by the time he/she has reached master (or the cap lvl), he/she has been able to hold his/her own against an even lvl con or a monster at his/her own lvl with little difficulty. Thus, making him/her able to take several hits from multiple opponents. Thus taking aggro from players who are not tanks. SWG has no tanks...and I will explain further!! Please be patient.
EXAMPLE
As aMaster Teras Kasi, I should be able to take an even con to me with limited down time. Unfortunately in SWG,I am notable to do so efficiently. I recently (since the UBER patch) went to Dantooine ImperialOutpost to fight, one of my favorite creatures to fight, aLong Horned Picket (white con). This battle took much longer than it used to, and if I didn't have any medic in me, I would have been schmoked. I was aware of the patch, during this battle I efficiently as possible conserved my HAM costs by taking of my knucklers while knocking the creature down. The battle ensued for about 2 1/2 minutes and victory was mine. But not without a cost which led to more than 75% of my mind (downtime). This creature has approximately 10,000 hit points, or DOES HE?
2) A Teras Kasi is given three percision strikes. The strongest one of these is the mind shot which is given at Master Percision Striking. It does approximately 700 damage without your VK's on, and approximately 1300 with your VK's on. Unfortunately on an even con'd creature, using 8 of these (with knucklers off) will more than half your mind pool. While using VK's, you can do about 4 of these attacks, resulting in more than half of your mind pool wasted. You do the math, it is not a viable option to kill a creature's mind/health/action pool, doing more damage to yourself than you do to the creature (their HAM against your HAM in prospective). The only viable attack option is to use your hardest hitting special move. However, by doing this, you are no longer fightinga creature with 10,000 HAM...you are fighting a creature with 30,000 HAM do to the fact that the attacks are a random hiton either mind/health/action.
3) PVP - As anyone can see, no matter what you do....the pvp system will be the same. In close quarters (melee)...the melee fighter (TKA) will most likely win. On the other hand, from a distance....a pistoleer/rifleman/anyone that can use a gun, is most likely going to win. This is not including optional classes to go along with these examples (CH, Medic, etc.). This is what the devs would have you believe.
We have been civil long enough, time to RANT!
For one, we are not PVP'ers....we believe the PVP system is broke, it comes down to the range of the opponent and who pushes the flippen button first (that's what they want to call PVP). You want to see PVP, go to DAOC. They had the most fantastic PVP system to date MMORPG. PVP battles took strategy, and longer than 3 seconds to win/lose. So now we have established why in SWG we are not PVP'ers....here are some real RANTS!!
You can't use VK's, due to the fact that you do more damage to yourself than you do the creature. Which means your Precision Striking is CRAP! If you don't want us to use VK's, give us some friggen defense as well as up our damage with unarmed hits....come on now, other classes take take creatures alot quicker than we can.....with half the HAM cost (fair?).
If you are a TKA in this game and have no CH or Medic....you are SCREWED!!! How do you solo on a game (with TKA) where 90% of the game's creatures are aggressive or pack aggressive (baff). I can barely take an even con....what happens when I have 2 or 3 of them on me....remember KD is out of it (too much HAM), precision striking is out of it (too much HAM). So that leaves me with Unharmed hit 3 which takes an even con 10,000 creature, and turns him into a godly 30,000 hit pointed UBER creature of death and destruction. So now, I am up against 2-3 30,000 HAM creatures....I LOVE MATH.....that equals (drum roll please) 90,000 hit points...and wait, how many HP's do I have 900 HAM down the line. That means these creatures are 10 times stronger than I am at even con. But remember, I am the TANK....as posted by Devs. I am the person who is supposed to be up front taking the hits.
Let's address an armor issue. It is true, TKA's have a better innate defense compared to other professions in the game. They have unarmed toughness, as well as melee defense. TKA's can also wear armor. Unfortunately, due to even higher HAM costs for wearing the armor....armor is out. And do to the fact that I am a Wookee and can't wear it anyway, that blows it out of the water. What an idiot I am, for picking a Wookee as a starting race. For shame, I read the books....jumped on forums (before the games release), hearing talk of a Wookee race that was savage and the WARRIOR race of the planet (as described in the strategy guide). But, that doesn't matter....TKA's can't efficiently wear armor anyways due to the high HAM cost.
80% of what I have read on the forums pertains to PVP combat and the combating between two characters being realistic. Who pushes the button first....that is realism (same as in real life). You can't put realism into the equation. Come on now...when was the last time you went into a dungeon and fought a hideous rancor (in real life). NEVER!!!!!!! This is a game. Every nerf being put towards the TKA (to this point) has nothing to do with fighting creatures....it has everything to do with fighting PVP. Since I do not fight PVP (broken system), every nerf is an attack to my characters abilities to fight monsters. Which in turn takes a ton of the fun factor out of the game.
In every game I have ever played (MMORPG or NOT), once I have hit master (or the highest lvl)...there were very few creatures thatcould pose a serious threat. In this game...since 90% of the game is aggressive or pack attack...I have problems with a majority of all creatures/npc's...so, being a master in several areas....this shouldn't be a problem...but it is. Now, because of this nerf, I am now fighting the same thing as I was fighting as a novice TKA with the same challenge....with no chance of becoming a stronger character...I have used all my skill pts, as well as mastered other fields within the game. I am no MASTER, I am aperson with a master tag who uses twice the HAM, fighting the same creatures as a novice. Where is the sense in that?
I have sympathy for all TKA's out there, especially the ones who do not have any type of Medic or CH in them.
If you would like us to give some suggestions to fix these problems...let us know, we have them......BUT THAT IS ANOTHER STORY!!!
TANKS?
Good points, mephestopholies. I have tried to point out serveral times to the developers that PvP is very unbalanced and that this is the first MMORPG were melee professions are totally owned by ranged attackers and unviable in PvP combat.
No one would ever say"Don't bring a sword to a bow & arrow (or spell) fight" in any other MMORPG because melee classes are true tanks who have mega-hitpoints and can dish out& receive the most damage of any class.
Bravo! (claps hands) Bravo!
My TKA character is not CH nor is he a medic so thanks tothe SWG dev teams new patch (the one they said they were so excited about) I am one of the royally screwed TKAs you talk about.
I could not of said it any better than how you said it.
Bravo! (claps hands) Bravo!
DeBonzai.
I just have to point out that I played DAoC from release until SWG came out, nearly 2 years. And I agree with what was said above. BUT, there were just as many people bitching and throwing a fit about the horrible imbalance in DAOC, and saying Mythic was a horrible company, and saying that the game was going to go under the moment something else hit the market, and petitions to end nerfs, etc.
So basically my experience with complainers in this game is: while their are legitmate problems there are also a lot of whines and rants that would never go away no matter how perfect a game was.
BOOOOOO YAAAAAA!!!!!!! Right on the nose!!!!!
I have been playing this game sence day one. I have endured the crappy first day, and the many nerfs to my character, finally a post that tells the truth. I also am not a PVP'er, I find the PVP system in this game to be a bunch "O" crap. Like you said, it comes down to the person who pushes the button first, and that in my book just plain sucks. So here I am a Master TKA, who can use none of his moves becuase of HAM costs, and to make things worst, I also have no medic, or CH in me. MY GOD, I cant fight anything without getting two creatures on me (BAFF), or (AGRESSIVE) I cant play with out having other people in my group. I like to fight Solo,its just the way I am, so I say "thanks alot SWG" for taking away the fun factor for me.
By the way Mephostopholies, thanks for posting this, maybe a DEV, will realize that nerfing TKA's because of PVP dose more damage than good. Three Cheer's for you my furry Wookiee friend!!!!!!
And to Selwynn and his post about DAOC and the people the complained about the PVP system in that game, well for starters, Realm vrs Realm battles were completely swamped day and night, and they had two servers made for nothing else, but pvp battle, and the thousands of people that played on those servers had no problem with PVP, and the 10's of thousands that played Realm Vrs Realm did'nt seem to have to much problem with it. Conclusion the majority rules, more people played in PVP and did not complain compared to the people that played PVP and whined about it.How can you even compare these two PVP systems, SWG and DAOC, one hit kills(SWG) compared to drawn out uber battles of skill and strength (DAOC) If this sounds like a flame, thats not the way I wanted it to come out, I appologise, Im just addressing what your saying about people whining, Point to be made more people PVP'ed in DAOC than will ever PVP in this game period.
DAOC PvP the best? not hardly... Unless they've done some serious revamping in the last 6-8 months pvp in DAOC is laughable at best. The best PvP game ever in my opinion? Assuming you could find the right combination of people with similar quality gear and in somewhat decent numbers, EQ had the most fun pvp. If you like it quick almost to the point of twitch gaming? AC1. DAOC was no better than shadowbane for pvp, and their half assed solutions to problems always bugged me. I don't think Mythic is any worse of a company than any of the others, all MMORPGs I have played I have had issues with the company running them. Only one that really seems to be accepted by all however, honesty. I don't mind nerfs, I don't mind changes, I don't really mind roll backs as long as they aren't TOO severe. However I do mind when they make changes to a game without a word. This patch with the changes to KD is a perfect example of this. They have yet to officially state anywhere that there were changes made to knockdown, they have never said it was a bug and unintentional, nor have they said that they meant to do this. I don't care what they do, I just want to be informed of it, and if possible given a reason. Even if the reason is they just didn't like it.
I like most people like to be informed. Being kept in the dark intentionally, especially knowing that is the case, is something that REALLY pisses me off.
jil~
Outstanding post! You hit the nail on the head. One of the good things done in EQ was that they always handled PvP and non-PvP nerfs seperately. I think the devs need to explain to us exactly what they envisioned with the melee classes. More specifically, what is our designed purpose in PvP and non-PvP. Guess what devs, these are two distinct different animals and need to be addressed as such. As it stands right now, we do not have a place in either.
I'm sure that this must of been stated somewhere in these threads, though I've not seen it, so I will say this. In any game of this type, the people playing them want their characters to be useful. To have a purpose. With knockdown, we "had" the ability to solo through tons of required experience AND we were desired in groups. When forming groups, one of the first questions asked was always, "do we have someone with KD yet?" We were needed...we had purpose...we were useful.
We didn't mind that we are pathetic in PvP. We didn't mind that CH pets had ten times our tanking ability. We were happy in the fact we could work towards KD and at that point, if we could get near enough to you, we could lay a smackdown on ya, and at that point, we were useful. You wonder why so many TKAs are quiting?
Let me put it in terms you may understand. You show up for work tomorrow in your little dev team office, and your boss tells you that you no longer have any responsibilities. Oh you still work there, and you still need to show up on time and stay till 4:30, but you are not allowed to help the other dev team members. In fact, they don't even invite you to their little dev team meetings anymore. Then they go so far as to tell you, well, your of no use to us anymore, so why don't you start working on another profession and go get us some donuts. Now tell me, just how long do you really think you would keep showing up for work.
Thats pretty much where we are now...where you put us now. So, I think the question that needs an answer is this.....
ARE WE TANKS?
If the answer is yes, then there are some serious issues that need to be addressed. Very simply, if we are the games tanks, then we need our defense, avoidance skills and armor class greatly increased. Heck, a simple fix would be to raise a melee novice AC to 1 and a master to 2, problem solved.
In any game of this type, one master of a fighting class should be equal to one master of any other fighting class, with tactics, terrian, and suprise being the deciding factors. Given this, a TKA, or any melee master should be an even fight with a BH, CH or any other fighting class master. The skill of the player should determine the outcome.
If the answer is no, then we need some idea of what you have envisioned for us. Because I'm pretty sure all who chose a melee class did so with the perception that they would in fact be tanks.
So, how can we fix this. For PvE it is so very simple. Undo the changes PvE only, problem solved. Though very unbalanced (ranged and CH being way more powerful than TKA), we were happy.
Now, for PvP.
PvP is so unbalanced, ranged -vs- melee, that the PvP system is rediculous. Melee have no chance what-so-ever, reguardless of the situation. Have you ever played the game, rock, paper, scissors? It's a very simple game where each of the possible choices has a way to counter the other. And this is what is so very badly needed here.
The probelm: Melee have no way to counter ranged weapons and if not killed outright, they are kited until dead.
Solution one: Allow only the melee masters to haveknockdown. If they are willing to put in the time to achieve master status then they gain the ability to counter a ranged master -IF- they can get close enough. This makes it harder for melee to get to master, but oh what a sweet reward when they do.
Solution two: Greatly reduce they abilty for a ranged player to hit while running, heck, it should be near impossible. This would create a stalemate of sorts with the melee player chasing the ranged player around, while the ranged player trys to stop and get a shot or two off. Would make 'burst run' very viable.
Solution three:For melee, make 'burst run' have a 30 second refresh. This would make the timing of hitting burst run critical and would give the melee player the opportunity to break contact. In this situation, a ranged player engages a melee and gets off a few well aimed shots. However, if he don't kill the melee player outright, then the chase is on with the outcome being in serious question.
TKAs are quiting in droves, and I will soon be one of them. You need to fix this now, and I mean right now. In fact, you should start by assuring us that you are aware of the problem AND that you will fix it. I think this will be enough to keep us here, unless you you dont fix it in a reasonable amount of time, like NEXT patch. Keep this in mind, we are guests in your house, and you have insulted us. You owe us all an apoligy, though fixing these problems would suffice.
*DING* thanks for the great post 
Please people get this thread goin, more people need to see it
Koozyo
I hate to rain on your parade my TK brother, but you are wrong. If you have 900 health in your HAM bar, and are up against 3 mobs with 90,000 HAM total, they are not 10Xs as strong, they are 100Xs as strong. I will attribute this oversight to the fact you have probably taken too many headshots to your mindpool and are a bit dazed and confused <snicker>. Other than that, I agree with you 100%.