Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Some proposals for TKA
Hey Holo, what ever happened to the 'promised' unarmed/TK damage increase anyway?
"The problem Gim is that the costs for moves need to be compared when such a unfair comparison is made..."
I agree to that, and if you'd read my initial post on this thread, you'd see that I pretty much post the same question to holo. My last coment was from a pvp standpoint.
Grimror give me a link to where Holo said this.
Grimror wrote:
People, bringing ranged vs. melee into this debate is going to get us nowhere, as Holo himself has statedhis opinions that ranged should own melee in this game period. Can we friggen choose our fights a bit more wisely? You're not gonna influence him to change this line of thinking at all on that issue. I'm sorry if you're end game and all you do is pvp, but unfortunately, the stars are not aligned for melee and pvp at all. Get over it, the sooner you realize it, the less you're gonna worry about it.
I'm sorry, this is not what I was looking for in the way of change for my profession. You're not changing the knockdown costs?? Christ Almighty, it costs us 600HAM to use it with VK's on, and 200HAM without them. Let me put this in terms everyone can understand.
No one can survive a special move that costs 600 HAM to use. The other professions that have KD moves have barely suffered from this change, while TK's sit in the middle of the battle taking hits from the mob and our special moves.
Look, you say that stringing specials together isn't supposed to happen. How come a Pistoleer can use pistolwhip and bodyshot to the Nth degree? Knockdown costs are way too high. At least they are for us. Please, reduce the costs to something manageable. And for all things holy, increase the range on VK's to 8m, same as without them. As is, I can't solo any big (large size, like Savage Gug Drolgs on Talus that con white to me) without removing my VK's in order to hit the thing.
And don't give me the argument that VK's are damage increasers. What is a pistol?
*sighs* i hope he comes back and answer us about being able to tank and why he did not look at knockdown
Even then I would still say you miss the point.
There are four player classes and rough playstyles in this game. Lets call it the Bartles Card Guide to SWG play.
Social = Entertainer tree
Achiever = Crafter / Hybrid
Explorer = Scout / hybrid
Killer = combat
Each subset of classes has been balanced against each other in SWG. You dont argue about a weaponsmith versus a TKA, you argue about a weaponsmith versus a armorsmith and BE for design and balance issues.
What angers people is that the professiosn that were set up to reward the "killer" playstlye of combat based ones were set up POORLY. To have a designer come out and say the following combat classes;
BRAWLER
TKA
FENCER
SWORDSMAN
PIKEMEN
are in the game purely for marketing points and roleplay and in no way should be considered to ever be balanced with the other combat classes is foolish.
The design team didn't create crafting profession that craft nothing.
They didn't create entertainer professions that entertained no one.
They didn't build exlporer hybids with no unusual or abilites for that player segment to use.
They DID create a section of combat classes without the ability to perfom in combat at mid to high end of the game in PvE and at all stages of the game in PvP.
As a playerbase and paying customers we SHOULD continue to gently remind them of these issues. Even if those reminded take the form of badly typed incoherent rambles such as this one.
ok since kd is unchanged how about posture changing for animals to work too then... i mean i can unarmlunge a womprat while he is dizzy and get no effect?
anyway im glad you are reducing the ham costs for some moves.. KD is still wayyy too high up there since we have to get in the thick of it to actually do the move..
i understand the baby steps you are taking because to give us something would take away from another profession
might i suggest however that you instead give us the ability to run and fire (not the counter strike as you mentioned) this is my biggest gripe
i dont want to be spider man and be able to hit from 20 meters with my uber fireball or whatever these guys are screamin for.. i have a pistol for range
i understand that tka was not meant to be the end all profession because it only costed 90+ skills
but i want you to look at the speed of knockdowns for other professions.. atleast make us faster than that.. because if we cant defend against it atleast if were in close where no ranged person should ever be.. we should have the speed advantage...
if these other professions want a fast take down then let them learn tka.. since we are forced to have to learn a gunning skill
Shadewyn, are you ignoring what I'm posting? All I am saying is that IN PVP (I'll say it again for you, IN PVP)the balance they percieve exists (which doesnt really, but they think it does) is that from a distance, a ranged user will destory a melee user. At melee range, the melee will have the upper hand. They have said that it is working as intended and thus anyone asking for an increase in run speed for all melees, or a decrease in ranged users run speed are just way off base for THIS discussion. In PvM its a different story and a change like HAM costs = for all KD capable classes would be in line with this discussion, but bringing th Ranged VS. Melee PVP discussion up here is counter intuitive as Holo himself has already said "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."
Simply getting a response of ANY kind makes us feel a lot better Holo. I don't think you realize how much we just hated being clueless more than much of anything else.
You still didn't give us any info on what these action costs are going to be. Simply saying they will be reduced isn't much, we've been told similar things before and a 1 point reduction doesn't count for all that much. Specifics are a virtue my friend.
I don't really see whywe need to have muchof amind cost at all...
VKs make things really tricky, I think you need to look into making us FAR better without any VKs at the higher levels of TKA. A true master of martial arts doesn't really need these. In fact I think that the old way of having novice brawlers be able to use them was fine. VKs are reminiscent of brass knuckles IRL. This is traditionally a weapon for a bouncer in downtown Coruscant ratherthan for a master of the martial arts. (I've never seen Jim Kelley using brass knuckles, but I've seen quite a few in prison films) Having a wide curve that brings us from having pathetic damage at novice to having fab damage that is on par with VKs at master would make more sense. +7 per level isn't really all that much ya know.
Does the mentioning of "General Combat change" mean that the same skills will go to marksman as well. If that is the case than it still keeps things at the same level, TKA are supposed to be the quickest and most maneuverable of all combat classes.
A /stick command would still be a HUGE help just so we at least don't get these infernal "out of range" errors all the time when we know bloody well that we are only 2m from our oponent.
Doesn't solve everything but it's a start.... And again I say, Thanks for at least letting us know SOMETHING. We all feel like we are the forgotten, illegitimate children over here.
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In one on one PvP combat in an open area, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. There's no other way to put it.
In closed quarters, it isn't quite as clear a scenario.
I think anyone who has had mixed meleers and ranged folks in a group knows that meleers do indeed have a good role to play. But in head-to-head one-on-one PvP, there's no getting past the fact that melee vs blaster is a mismatch in favor of the blaster in most areas in the game.
IMHO, this doesn't mean that melee is not worth having in the game. People enjoy it, people do well at it, and they want it in the game. It's just hard to get past the fundamental fact that blasters are a superior weapon at a distance.
-Raph Koster, Creative Director
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See ... there is an assumption by Raph that ranged wins at ranged and melee wins at melee. He also assumes some core game role for melee which does not exist yet.
1) No ability to fight against any tough mobs much less any epic ones in PvE
2) Weak damage than ranged & more costly specials.
3) Forced to fight close against creaturese designed to kill in one hit to prevent the kiting tactics.
4) No role in PvP that is not EQUALED to by a ranged class or done better by.
What would be on our minds as players is EXACTLY what is this magical mythical role we are missing?
Were the melee classes really just a hybrid of entertainer and combat and thus do meager amounts of damage but in a stylish manner?
That seems to be what Raph is saying ...
hey guys, i just did the math. They reduced our HAM cost by.............
18
WOW!
Holocron wrote:OK, let me start by saying that we are positive that these changes will need iteration, but that's also why we are posting them as proposals so you can sanity check them:
- Across the board action cost reduction (Not changing knockdowns)
- Improved chance of a defensive move firing (General Combat change)
- Vibroknucklers
- Increasing max range on vibroknucklers to 5 meters
- Changing Health Cost from 32..59 to 18..36 (better)
- Changing Action Cost from 29..46 to 30..54 (different)
- Changing Mind Cost from 15..29 to 18..36 (different)
- These values are modified to be slightly higher than the default unarmed move costs as this is a damage increasing weapon. Because the move costs are being decreased significantly, this should be a much smoother transition.
Thoughts?
Frankly, this all seems like a feeble attempt. The problem is that the ONLY way we can stay in a fight is to keep them within our range, and the only way we have to do that is either 1) lunge or 2) knockdown.
Knockdown is about the only thing that really levels the playing field.
And, besides, the knockdown cost wasn't even reasonable - it just makes it prohibitive to use it. It wasn't like you just raised the cost a little bit, you inflated it WAY too much.
Frankly, the other costs don't even bother me. It's just knockdown.
You're really not fixing anything here.