Teras Kasi Archive

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately--not in terms of mechanics, but in terms of what I feel like a Teras Kasi artist should be able to do that is "different" from other melee. Why do I think we ought to be somehow on a different field than most melee? Well, the main reason is that the other three melee tracks are fairly parallel with the three basic ranged tracks. There's the high damage output low defense mind track, the mid-range action track, and the low damage output high defense health track. (Yes, I know that this isn't really quite how things stack up, but it seems obvious to me, anyway, that this is what was intended--pistols are supposed to do less damage than rifles.)

Well, unarmed brawlers are the "funny stuff" track right now--which is an interesting thing: we get all the tricks (except bleeds). We get to apply pretty much all state modifiers (although some work better than others.) But it's not clear how we should relate to the other melee professions in terms of damage output or defenses.

The idea that I've been toying with is the unarmed should be the melee counter for ranged attacks. The basic idea is like this:

Pure ranged and pure melee starting at a good distance, melee should be in trouble closing the gap. When the meleer closes the gap, they can go to town on the ranged user. Fitting into this picture is the commando, who is the exotic ranged weapon specialist, and counters melee at close range and armor at longer range. If we imagine a fight between ranged users on one side and ranged users on the other, and the ranged users are back up by a commando, the melee people should be, quite simply, pwned. If they stay at long range, they get picked off by snipers. If they close to short range, they are roasted by the commando's anti-infantry weaponry.

What I'm considering is the idea that the teras kasi artist should fill a similar (but not identical, no anti-armor capabilities for one thing!) role on the melee profession side. Not being weighed down by a weapon (and possibly, also not weighed down by armor), the teras kasi artist should be the most nimble of all melee professions, practically able to dance through a firefight without getting hit. This fits in with some of the descriptions in the manual which we have moaned about as they don't really apply to us.

With that idea in mind, I'd actually suggest that, yes, we should be the dirty trick specialists, without bleeds, able to hamper the offensive abilities of our enemies to a greater degree than other professions--and potentially with greater defensive capabilities than other professions, at least when it comes to avoiding gunfire. On the other side of the picture, this means we shouldn't be the heavy damage dealers at close range that we are now, at least not the kind of huge crushing blows we deal at the moment. And it's quite possible that in a situation where we are being hit by melee opponents we shouldn't be nearly as tough as we are now. (Note: I said "being hit". In other words, if we can avoid being hit through the use of dirty tricks or whatever, it's different.)

The image I have is of a group of melee attackers supported by a teras kasi artist facing a group of ranged attackers winning, although not in the up front way that the commando+ranged group owned the meleers. I see the teras kasi artist able to close the distance to the ranged attackers without taking many hits in the process, and then diving into the group of ranged attackers. And then--not owning them, but causing enough mayhem and confusion that the other melee fighters are given a chance to close in and cause trouble.

So what kinds of mechanics could this imply? Well, as I said before, the dirty tricks are a reasonable thing for us to have--they allow us to decrease the combat effectiveness of our enemies, which would cut down on the damage the ranged attackers can do. Our other capabilities also fit into this, somewhat: the spin attacks are also reasonable, as they ought to make many enemies at once stand up and say "Hey! I'm being *hit*!" The multiple pool attacks we get (especially if, for example, there were version that deal a useful amount of damage to a single pool after getting the individual pools, either at master or move mind to precision 3 and put h/a/m 2 at precision 4) allow us to make trouble for any of the ranged enemies by depleting their most important pool. Some other things that would be interesting would be to make the various special effects (blind, stun, etc.) more effective at higher levels, and perhaps add spin versions of those attacks. Diving into a group of enemies and making them all less able to hit people at once will certainly stir things up. On the defense side, the dirty tricks should be useful enough to be our primary means of defense--that is, we ought to be in trouble if we don't use them, but if we do use them, the other guy should start feeling like he's in deep deep trouble. This might imply that our toughness should be weaker than it currently is, so that we depend on abilities like blind, stun, and their friends to keep us going. (A possible disadvantage of that would be to encourage the use of heavier armor, which doesn't feel right.) For defense against ranged opponents, well, one possibility might be that a teras kasi artist get ranged mitigation rather than melee mitigation, or like the smuggler, get a little of both.


Anyway, mechanics are not, in my opinion, the important question--the important question is what *role* should we play in a group, or if we're solo, what should be our strengths and weaknesses. I think that making us more powerful against humanoid targets, particularly those that use ranged weapons, would give us an interesting role. While being a mean green fighting machine is kind of fun, I have to admit that I don't feel *right* when I go out and take down a kimogila single-handedly. I don't feel like I should be soaking up the hits while wearing barely any armor at all, or crushing the life out of a huge creature with my punches. I *do* feel good, though, when I come down on an enemy NPC in hand to hand range and flip them upside down and sideways, taking them out almost before they can blink. (Though it's weird when the imperial officers pull a pike out of... er... somewhere I don't want to think about to attack me back.)

These new combat changes are going to do a number on the entire system of combat. It's going to be a whole new playing field, with new defenses, new attacks, new ways in which to interact with ham, and so on. As a result, we really have to think in broad terms and say to the devs "we think we should be good in these sorts of situations and less good in these other sorts of situations, and absolutely the best doing this type of thing." I don't know if my ideas are the best, but I would like to hear ideas of this type from other people, so we can discuss them.

ok here is how i envision the teras kasi proffesion.

Teras kasi should be the fastest hitting of all the melee proffesions. We should also be the hardest to hit, and as i see it we should have very good chance of dodging or counter attacking because we dont carry a large weapon to slow us down.

I think we should get a natural AP-1 abilty at master tka so we dont have to use the vk's and in fact i wouldnt mind if vk's were removed from the game as long as we got damage boost to helpcompensate for it.

I wouldnt mind if unarmed spin attack was removed. it doesnt do very much damage to be competive with other AOE attacks. if it is removed then we should geta goodboost to all defenses.

as far as damage goes i do notthink tka shouldbe leading the pack. I think swordsman or pikeman should do the most damage. it should be our speedy attacks that makes us competive to the other melee proffesions.

meditate is exactly what i envisioned it to be except for the FoW skill. A 1 hour timer is completely rediculous and kills the skill. it should be reduced to about 15 mins or even 5 mins.

unarmed combos should cause multiple status effects and a some damage but not a lot.

the focused ham attacks we get in the precision striking tree are too weak to be of use except for head hit. UH2 does a lot more damage than thebody hit or leg hit attacks. i think the focused ham attacks should do almost as much damage as a special attack so these skills can be put to more use.

I think tka should not wear amor while fighting cause in reality armor just slows you down. also if armor is equiped itshould reduce the speed ourattacks maybe even dramaticalyif we had a full suit of armor on.our high defensive mods should make up for not being able to use armor. Like i said above we need to be able to dodge and counter-attack which requires you to be quick so armor would actualy reduce your chances of dodging/counter-attacking.

well i cant think of anything else atm.

Steiner- teras kasi master

Well Im gonna pretend i didint read the tka history part. LOL its been discused a million times and there is no story, only a little backround of a martial art.

IMHO, TKA should be the fastest dps dealers in the melee profesions. We should also be able to dodge/counteratack (not block, its not very efective to bloc a sword for example with your bare hands) a lot better than the other profesions(that is what martial arts are about, self defense which requiers one doing the hitting or evading hits while neutralizing his opponent). We should definately not be able to deal as much dmg as any of the other melee clases, including fencers (thy should be able to strike about as fast as us and deal more dps). Someone with a knife should be able to cause more dmg than someone unarmed. We can blance this by giving them their bleeds at a very fast dps and we keep our KD and a little beter defenses than them. Just dont give them such a big defence againsdt KD.

We should have the best defenses, fastest dps but lowest dps. this should increase or decrease as we move to fencer, swords and pike. We should be able to dance like a buterfly but sting like a bee (cant remember if the quote goes exactly like this).

We should be able to deal only kinectic. But i think we can get maybe a small bleed if using vk's (very big ham cost, so that we dont feel like spamming it). The other alternative at master level can be a powerfull punch technique that projects CHI (ki) (it should get at least AP1 or AP2) and cause some type of internal bleeding or bone chatering therefore causing a stun damage , internal bleed dmg or stronger dizzy efect causing more effective posture changes (then again at a great cost to the hams). It can be the fist of death (it is said that master martial artist can strike a preasure point in such a way to kill his oponent with a single strike). Im in no way suggesting killing an oponent with one punch but something powerfull at high ham costs.

Also we should get, as well as all the profesions, fixes on all our specials. Its pathetic for example that we are basically a KD/dizzy or UH2/3 martial art. All the others are practically useless.

Basically we are doing Ok; if we get fixes thy probably wont be anything very big. This is good. But its only good if balance is brought to all the profesions. I want to be able to duel a PM and not be sure of what the outcome will be.

TKA and fencers should be the best at fighting single or maybe 2 oponents. Sword and PM should be able to hold a t bay many more than we can.

Another way of balnacing might be making armor a no no for fencers and tka but not for swords and pm. The last 2 should be able to use them at a lower ham cost do to the fact of their slower attacks. Think of Samurai using armor. Since the first 2 use no armor thy get a little extra toughness and better dodge and defences. Make the other 2 stonger with the use of armor at low ham costs and good blocking and decent counterattaks.

Well im at work and nothing else comes to mind at the moment but lll let you know if something pops up.

PS-and peeps get of your heads the jedi watcher thing,its not accurate.

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Mister_Heavy wrote:

Question for you guys. Would weconsider giving upall AOE (Spin) attacks as a balance for higher power in 1 on 1 direct damage?

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Gladly. However I'm a Master Heavy Swordsman so why do 1000 damage on an AOE when I can do 4000.

In all honesty I rarely use AOE attacks, and honestly the AOE attacks don't make a whole lot of sense.

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Mister_Heavy wrote:

Question for you guys. Would weconsider giving upall AOE (Spin) attacks as a balance for higher power in 1 on 1 direct damage

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I would be more than willing to do this... The only thing i would like to see is a posible increase in our current specials, like adding a bleeds to combos or adding status effects to them... Or possibly add 2 new special moves.

Comparing master level characters, TK is well balanced as it stands. we are fast, can do high damage and have a versitle mix of attacks. I would not want to give up spin2 for a bleed or stronger single attack. Frankly a bleed is a waste of time and HAM for a TK. The fight is usually over one way or the other before the second tick of a bleed.

The big weakness of a TK is sustainability. they are deadly early in a fight, but if the fight lasts a long time, we start to get in trouble and our DPS drops as we have to lay off the specials.

This also assumes that Defensive Acuity is fixed in the near future.

There are4 basic parts to balance melee classes: Offense, Defense, Speed, Sustainability.

Offense Defense Speed Sustainability

1. 2H1. Fence 1. TK 1. Pike

2. TK 2. TK 2. Fence 2. 2H

3. Pike 3. 2H 3. Pike 3. Fence

4. Fence 4. Pike 4. 2H 4. TK

I think something should be done w/ kd2. I mean a tka that is 0/4/0/0 could beat a master. Is that right? Do you think a novice bh can beat a master? A novice commando beat a master? I dont think so most of the time anyway. Move that sucker to master.

I think TKA should be the fastest of the melee and have no need to wear armor. For that I would be willing to be on the lower end of damage.

I love having meditation and would be greatly dissapointed to see that changed.

I really like the spin atacks and would not want to loose those.

I agree that TK is fairlywell-balanced, although some tweaking and tightening is in order. Since you are asking about our vision for TK in relation to other classes, however, I'll say these things:

1. Automatic TKA combat should relflect speed,manuverability and adaptability reflected by fastest attacks, best dodge and best counterattack success.

2. TKA skills should reflect principles of controlling and manipulatingopponents through status and stance effects moreso than sheer damage. I'd rather have a 1xdmg KD that worked 2/3rds of the time than a 2xdmg KD that worked1/3rd the time.

3. BaseDPS over a measured period of time should beless than other combat classes.

4.Speed of attack should be fastest allowing for more frequent applications of status and stance effects.

5. Dodge success should be best among combat classes. Relatively speaking, I think armed melee professions should have the best Block abilities, and both TK and armed melee should be equal with counterattacks.

6. In relation to other classes, DOT effects do not seem appropriate for TK. In fact, they don't seem appropriate for ranged classes using energy weapons which should probably be cauterizing wounds, not exaserbating bleeding. DOT attacks should be the specialty of armed melee as far as combat classes go.

Some specifics:

1. I would not take spin attacks out, particularly to replace them with HAM-directed attacks which we already have (improve what's there).

2. Combo attacks are way overdue for changes. A simple fix is that they have a change to apply status and/or stance effects. Perhaps Combo1 has a chance of appllying a random status effect like stun, blind or intimidate, and Combo2 (with it's leg sweep animation) has a chance of appyling both a random status andlowered-stance effect.

3. HAM-directed attacks are off-balance. My feeling is most skills should not lose their usefuless as we progress through the skill tree, but that each skill has a particular usefulness. BodyHit, for example, has a short life because LegHit and HeadHit both do more directed-pool damage, and unarmedHit2 is lower HAM and , overall, as effective at dealing out health damage. IMHO, all directed pool attacks would be better balanced and more strategically interesting if they had the same damage multiplier (2x).

I would like to see an icon that allowed us to charge the opponent.. It says that against range we are supposed to close the distance quickly and take them out...Or maybe a running kick...

I got incapped by an NPCwith a blaster simply because he would not stop moving, (can't hit while moving).

gozarian its easily justified I can spam specials for the entire combat as a fencer and still have near full mind, I cant do the same with a tk, and when im doing fencer I wear armor.

I would like to see a TKA Elite proffession. This might be a proffession taking up the thread making TKAs sense forcesensitives (Like the group described in the Star Wars Encyclopedia), and creating a character which really is to be feared of all, including jedis.

This Elite proffession will take up most of the TKAs skillpoints (of course) so this doesnt leave any space for other master proffessions. (Exept the basics)

Abilities could be
- Improvement of Meditation (like using even more of their inner force)
-- Faster healing while meditating.
-- Quickheal, for use during combat? Maybe heal Health, action AND mind, though causing battle fatigue or wounds

(Maybe advancing here would require some other XP than Unarmed XP, like meditation XP)


- Detecting disturbance in the force
-- Being able to track Jedi, or Jedis using their powers, and advancing here would improve the ability.

- More devastating attacks.
- More defensive ablities
- And so on...


Just a though,

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Mister_Heavy wrote:

So for instance, where do you see us in terms of attack speed, toughness, overall DPS, crowd control, MOB debuffing, area attacks, accuracy, etc., compared to the other brawling classes?

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I have to agree with many here that feel that the TKA is already well balanced and would hate to see us get changed (other than maybe just drop the specials that don't work well instead of fixing them... I never use them and haven't seen a need to use them).

If anything were to be changed I would have no problem with making a TKA unable to wear armor. NOTE: this change would be rather drastic since it in essence even when not in combat as a TKA, like myself who also uses pistol to prevent kiting in PvE, the TKA would not be able to wear armor. I would drop pistoleer and switch to a non-combat elite profession if this were to take place but I don't see it hurting me that much as a TKA as long as our melee and ranged defences as well as toughness remain high. I would also feel that if we loose armor, then make sure we get several types of martial artist type clothing from different backgrounds such as ancient chinese, ninja, modern martial artist, etc.

I also believe that VKs have one inherent flaw in them right now. VKs should not increase the speed of a TKA, rather it should slow them down since it adds weight, kinetic energy (harder to change directions), etc. Yes, it adds to damage but it should slow us down in our fights, not speed us up.

So in terms of what Mister Heavy asked:

• Speed - Fastest unless we are equiping a weapon or wearing armor.


• Toughness - I believe we should be the toughest naturally because I believe we shouldn't be wearing armor (and yes, I use armor a lot so this would initially hurt me).


• DPS - Average - basically, do the same amount of damage we do now when not using VKs


• Crowd Control - lousy


• Mob Debuffing - not sure this is an issue since most of our debuffs come from the brawler line but it is right about right now


• Area Attacks - affected by distance... spin moves should only be effective out to like 3m


• Accuracy - Deadly if they are standing toe to toe with us, if they are moving, it drops. If they are behind us or to the side, it drops. If we are running away, we can't hit the side of a barn. If we are chasing them, they can't hit the side of a barn but we are making them pay for being chicken.




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If life was fair we all would be playing SWG on Mac G5s

TKA Master, Pistoleer Master, Master of Dying