Teras Kasi Archive

Holo, you wanted us to leave out PVP comparisons and just do PVE comparisons because you cant discuss game balance when you are comparing a class to another overpowered class. This makes perfect sense to me but it brings me to my next point..............

4 months from now, when you guys have finally worked out so many of these balance issues and have all of these professions balanced in a PVE perspective melee types will still remain under powered in PVP. All things being equal in PVE the melee guys will still be at a huge disadvantage in PVP simply due to our lack in ability to close the distance between us and a kiting ranged combatant. Until player running speed is either increased when not wielding a weapon, or decreased when wielding a weapon, this is never going to change.

You can say that lunge is supposed to address this problem, but the FACT of the matter is that unarmed lunge isnt going to do a thing to a carbineer whos 45m away and just keeps taking pop shots at you while he runs away. Until that is fixed, all of the PVE nerfing and balancing in the world is not going to do a thing for us in PVP. YOu cant ignore that, the PVP system is what is going to make or break this game, and right now its breaking melee combat.

Melee is important, these types of games have a huge melee following. Not everyone wants to be a ranged player, dont push them away because of it. The "dont bring a knife to a gunfight" statement drives people away. You can claim realism to back up this statement if you like, but if realism is the desired result, why dont we put the 1 shot kills in PVP back in while we are at it?

I guarantee you, if you address this problem, 80% of complaints from melee players disappear. This is why all melee classes believe they are underpowered, this single reason. Its not the power of the moves or the ham costs of the moves. The smaller power is obviously made up for by increased attack speed over ranged guys.

Its the fact that we are gimped from the gate that is the problem. If we actually had a chance to close the distance between us and a ranged guy with a "REALISTIC" increase in running speed while not wielding a ranged weapon, then we would be fine. Add to that the ability to attack while moving as long as we are within our attack range, then we would be perfect. You could do whatever you wanted to our moves and abilities after adding those 2 changes.

YOu need to seriously consider this. It is the savior to all of your melee class balancing issues. Its realistic and its mathematically sound.

And, PvP for a while and see how good TKA are. If you get caught unaware, you're toast. If you're not paying attention, you're dead.

You'd need to be sitting on the toilet reading a paper and on your way to AFK for a TKA to suprise you in PvP. At worst it'll take a TKA 18 hits at the estimated "normal" dammage in the 70 range. If we managed to get off 3 knockdowns with out failing we might be able to do dammage in the range of 200 - 450. each hit. Keep in mind that these attacks often spread the dammage between all 3 of your pools randomly so it's not a hit to health each time. With that in mind you can estimate that a Wookiee with no armor to kill them via their health it would take (average KD would be 325) 3 successful knockdowns (which would almost incap any TKA at the moment) and you'd need to do another 325 hp of dammage to the health, with an average "normal dammage in the 70's that would take another 5 hits. This is assuming that you are on the toilet, your auto-defend is disabled, and your not running away.

Would a Novice Pistoleer take a Master TKA? Probably not in a closed area.

All any pistoleer needs to do is keep moving it doesn't matter if they are inside or outside 90% of the time they are out of range. All us TKA's can do is follow or try to predict where they'll run. In case you didn't notice 80% of the world in SWG is non-colideable this includes players so even if you corner someone inside of a building they can run right through you and escape with at most 1 hit.

TKA hits burst run, kd's -- it's over. TKA needs something else though, besides knockdown. It's the only tactic they got. Oh, I forgot. Dizzy. It's aKDoT. And Stun. And intimidate. Silly me!

We do have alot of abilities, the problem is that none of them work well in PvP. Knockdown hits...the other player types /stand they are on the move again. Yay I got a whole 1 hit in. Dizzy doesn't take effect unless someone changes stances. So if your a smart player you don't change stances. Stun doesn't do a **edit** thing as far as I can see maybe they miss one out of ever 10 hits. Intimidate? Ya it's great but it's not a TKA move it comes from brawler, I'm a tad bitter that I have to use an ability I got on my second or third day of SWG to save my butt now that I've hit the master power techniques in the TKA tree.

Holocron, I think you've got our answer. Give us back our previous TKA andKD (prenerf), and keep your proposal for yourself. You don't even play our class so how do you even know our class. And here's another, why should you give us a break? We fight with goddam fist in a galaxy where people have dam laser rifles,acid launchers, and light sabers. We fight with our fists. How would you see someone who fights with their fists, have an advantage in such an enviroment? Where Mobs and creatures shoot threw F'ing walls and buildings. You tell me how to play the TKA that you nerfed in a laser/launcher enviroment. Since you don't play our class, go ahead and have one of your men make you a quick TKA character then go find a hunting party going to dathomir. Watch how since you are the one who attacking with your fists, is the one that is being attacked, and watch everyone else shoot away. YOU DON'T PLAY OUR CLASS SO STOP TELLING US WERE OVER POWERED. Your arguments with us are like pampered whisps to us, were so pissed with you and your crazy azz comments, that we can hardly believe you, or even want to hear you. It's a shame that we have to go through this, you have interupted many of us having fun. Many of us never even posted on this forum until you made your blind changes. And now many of us have'nt played the game since the changes. Well whatever, Raph won't listen, he will continue to stare at the sun and wonder why his eyes hurt.

Too many messages to sift through. Are the changes to vibroknuckles on all existing ones or newly crafted ones? I've beenthinking about getting new ones vs repairing my current ones and this would impact the decision.

PLEASE DO NOT INCREASE THE MIND COST!!! I'M A TKA DOCTOR AND THAT WILL JUST KILL ME!!!

AS IT IS THE VK'S KILL AS IT ME. [B]ALL[/B] OF THE HAM COSTS YOU BE LOWERED, NONE SHOULD BE INCREASED. THEY ARE ALL FAR TOO HIGH AS IT IS FOR CRYIN OUTLOUD!!!

It is abundantly clear that the developers are not listening to us here.

We are stating the same thing over and over and yet we are getting no response. This is because DEVS do not like TKA. Yes they gave it to us as a sales gimmick. Now they want us to conform to another type of fighting.....Let me shed some light.

I liked the idea of knockdown doing very little to no damage at all when being used...this makes sense to me, but a problem arises. Pistoleer, carbiner and almost every other profession has a knockdown skill. Yes this is true....and theirs does damage.....yes this is true too. We are trying to say that we are unhappy with the nerf on our knockdown because nobody else has accrued such and OUTRAGEOUS cost. With this said.....the other professions do not take a hit into the health, action and mind pools when they do a KD. So a brief recap....TKA gets shafted as our KD doesn't do a **edit** thing to help us in our efforts. The people that excel at this professions are trandoshans and wookies.....so my poor Mon Cal character is getting screwed every which way I turn as I can't stand toe to toe with a TKA of equal skill.....I'm lucky if I can do it to one of lesser skill. I understand the bonuses but KD is my equalizer....but thanks to SOE...I don't have that anymore.

We want to hit while running...that would be nice....not going to happen as the DEVs do not listen to us anymore....and what about the range on VK....shorter than regular melee range???? HOW STUPID!!!!!!!!!

HEH....very disappointed on the changing of the skills........sorry to see that TKA was the first one to be so HORRIBLY nerfed when Pistoleers and CH's were clearly the 2 OVERBEARING classes in this game.

Any one who wants to criticize the devs on this topic please make another post about it if you absolutely must have your say. This is a feedback thread on what would be best for the class. I don't need someone to really ruin my chances of getting some fixes/changes in here. We've asked for us to be able to discuss with the devs to make the class better. Please don't ruin it for everyone else.

Holo, knockdown affects different people's characters differently. Some use a lot of action and some use a lot of mind. It drains me across the board. Health, action and mind are all greatly affected. I really, seriously disagree with a timer for knockdown. It puts us at a disadvantage. I posted that knockdown does serve as a defensive tool when encountering mobs that you don't wish to fight. It's very unfavorable for me to step out of my house and see red dots on my radar within the 64m range, and now they can run into my house. The privacy barrier does nothing but allow a certain level of griefing. I'm sorry I nearly ranted there.

May I ask that we view these changes on Test Center. I mean is there some way to just pick a TKA player to test out changes or is this impossible? I really would like knockdown to be more in line with pistol HAM costs. Either that or make knockdown more effective and that much more damaging since it involves body to body contact.

I really hope that made sense.

Holo, thank you for letting us know that our outcries are being heard. I can not wait to see how these proposed changes will effect the game. I do have one suggestion at this time. Pertaining to the matter of Vibro Knucklers, just remove them from the game. Maybe even add more increasing damage to the Teras Kasi Profession... after all it is suppose to be unarmed combat.

I know alot of people are complaining about balance, comparing themselves to Pistoleer and I feel their pain but I honestly do not know enough about the other to make a fair comparison. I do not enjoy nor partake in PvP and could care less who would win. However I can relate some experiences in a PvE sense. It is disconcerting to see a Pistoleer not get hit with the ability to knockdown his opponent from afar with a far less HAM cost than I have standing toe to toe with the beastie trying to keep it from hitting me every now and again. This I believe is the biggest flaw in the current system.

I expect I would lose almost every fight on open terrain against a marksman... although I likewise expect to win almost every fight in a building against that same marksman. Just food for thought and hopefully a glimpse at some of the frustration we are feeling as a community.

First of all 'm not a TKA, so if that pisses you off please stop reading here. *

I'm not going to comment on the HAM costs of various moves, because from my point of view it seems patently unfair that a knockdown by a martial artist costs more than a knockdown from a pistoleer (which I am). Someone mentioned that martial arts is ALL about knockdowns, and I tend to agree this is a mistake in the TKA balancing.

As far as the matter of TKA's in PVP..while it appears that lunge is supposed to cover ground..I think a morerealistic ability might be an enhanced Burstrun call it Burstrun II that allows a TKA to run farther, faster, or both due to his mind-over-body control. This 'ability to close distance' faster would take care of any complaints of being 'kited' by pistoleers, as a burstrunning /follow TKA would be able to quickly takedown any unprepared char who didn't immediately turn tail and /burstrun themselves...and in fact a percentage of the time this wouldn't avail them anyway as a TKA would be able to out-last them in any purely physical challange...which sounds very realistic for a physical char like a TKA master.

Does this solve all the problems with TKA in PVE and PVP? No..but I thought some out-of-the-box thinking might help

First of all 'm not a TKA, so if that pisses you off please stop reading here. *

I'm not going to comment on the HAM costs of various moves, because from my point of view it seems patently unfair that a knockdown by a martial artist costs more than a knockdown from a pistoleer (which I am). Someone mentioned that martial arts is ALL about knockdowns, and I tend to agree this is a mistake in the TKA balancing.

As far as the matter of TKA's in PVP..while it appears that lunge is supposed to cover ground..I think a morerealistic ability might be an enhanced Burstrun call it Burstrun II that allows a TKA to run farther, faster, or both due to his mind-over-body control. This 'ability to close distance' faster would take care of any complaints of being 'kited' by pistoleers, as a burstrunning /follow TKA would be able to quickly takedown any unprepared char who didn't immediately turn tail and /burstrun themselves...and in fact a percentage of the time this wouldn't avail them anyway as a TKA would be able to out-last them in any purely physical challange...which sounds very realistic for a physical char like a TKA master.

Does this solve all the problems with TKA in PVE and PVP? No..but I thought some out-of-the-box thinking might help

combat sprint

+x / tier movement rate while in combat

done and done

---

Holocron wrote:

Look, all we're trying to do here is make you happy and make sure you have fun in the game. At the same time, if we say "we will give you anything you ask for," you will ask to be invulnerable (admit it.. If we're proceeding from different assumptions, we're going to end up disagreeing. Hence my post in SWG discussion sowe can get back to first principles.

I'll tell you that ourtake as far as TKAs go is that you have some balance issues, but overall you are overpowered, not under. Can you explain to me why that is incorrect? What are you measuring against, exactly. (Pistoleers in PvP? PvE when compared against a comparably advanced carbineer or pikeman? What, exactly, are you using as your baseline?)

---

Holo,

First thanks for the communication, while I don't think you all fully understand the concerns yet, I appreciate the dialoge.

I am going to try to address a few questions you have asked in numerous thread about TK and Melee in general from my perspective.

Baseline, is observed game situations. To say "don't compare youself against (xyz class) is an unrealistic expectation for players. I mean you must understand that is how we will measure our effectivness in a multiplayer game situation? Until I got back from my work trip today (gone 2 days) and read your post I had no idea you considered Pistol users so overpowered...you had never said it before (to my knowledge) so why would I not compare myself to them?

Second, you asked to explain how we are not overpowered...I say it's easy, class skillset/role/effectivness. We are not nearly as good doing our job in a group dynamic as others are in there roles. A rifleman is a better long range sniper than a TK is a tank in a higher end PvE encounter, a carbiner is a better mid range damage state change profession than a TK is in a high end encounter, a Pistoleer is a better everything than a TK is everything . The bottom line is we don't fill our roles very well in groups (social game?) and all you have to do is go into (dev god invis mode) and go watch on any advanced planet.

As a TK/CH , I get told , "send your pet in please don't hit this mob it will kill you right away"..while ranged users get to have fun playing the game. The sad part is it's true, they are not being mean, they are trying to keep the group together and avoid unessecary rezzes(and rez stat bug). Folks are up in arms about KD because it was our "golden ticket" it got us into fun groups and gave us a role in that group. Folks would say "lets get a TK so they can keep mobs off us with KD" , they don't say that anymore and they NEVER said lets get a TK because they are good tanks.

Here is the issue as I see it (others milage may vary) When it comes to tanking we don't get the job done in groups. The reason folks (me) cared about KD is it was a replacment for HAM, health in particular. Some would say every class has that same challange, I disagree, only melee try's to get the mob to hit them.Thus mobs avg dpsis much more a issue for us. We end up being spectators far too often, and thats not fun.

I was on of the folks who said I didn't want to be a "one trick pony" spamming KD, and that was true. I hope that the defensive skills firing more often address the issue but I fear they won't .

Now for the things that make me go hummm?

I can't imagine sitting in a design session and having someone come pitch this idea and really think players would be happy...

"I have an idea for our cool martial arts class, now this class will not be able tododge, evade, repose, disarm, FD or any other special defensive moves but folks are gonna love it!"

Thats kind of like saying ...

"I have this cool idea for a commando who uses rocket launchers at point blank range" (Ok unfair swipe, but gosh it was funny when I read it)

TK's meet the very minimum expectation for a class that had some EU foundation...the bare minimum was met to use the name TK.

You also asked about penaltys while moving, it's simple while running you get a defensive bump, while running and firing you take a big accuracy decrease, while running AWAY and firing you almost never hit. Yes blasters were the order of the day in SW's but gosh they stunk all the time and even worse running.

My last point, yes to follow the guide to the letter would mean that no one could kill anyone else, but I assure you that when I read about high end skills that helped evade blaster fire it made sense, isn't that what all the kung fu guys do in the movies

We know you want to make the game fun for us. We know you can't make us uber killing machines but please give is the tools to perform our tanking role in groups and not be easy"kite" fodder for ANYONE with a gun.

And I now I have a 4 questions for you

1-If pistol was so overpowered that no other class should compare themselves for a combat expectation, why so much early effort to change TK's. You have admited that melee were already at a disadvantage in PvP and can you understand why the priority choices migh lead to the extreme frustration you see now?

2. Why did you even put KD in ranged users bag of tricks, if anything posture chages but KD? And then make it LESS expensive to do KD from range /boggle

3. Do you understand that tanking does not work in game ATM, due to the damage tankers take?

4- What combat class do you see as the best performer (from your perspective)of what player power should be in PvE?

Holo, while this post may not reflect my deep appreciation (I'm not a good writer) but I do appreciate the communication and the desire to make the game fun. I just hope that one day my martial arts master learns some defensive skills

dB

ps. don't make us post any more screen shots of TK's getting owned by some guy in melee with a pistol in his hand...it's not good for the TK self image..

I am glad your answer was just not to lower KD cost to nothing, that would have made for some booring gameplay, but please understand the need for us to have the right defensive skills to be fun. Being one or two shot as a tank/monk class does NOT = fun ....can I learn to evade or dodge now?

---

Holocron wrote:

OK, let me start by saying that we are positive that these changes will need iteration, but that's also why we are posting them as proposals so you can sanity check them:

• Across the board action cost reduction (Not changing knockdowns)
• Improved chance of a defensive move firing (General Combat change)
• Vibroknucklers
• Increasing max range on vibroknucklers to 5 meters
• Changing Health Cost from 32..59 to 18..36 (better)
• Changing Action Cost from 29..46 to 30..54 (different)
• Changing Mind Cost from 15..29 to 18..36 (different)
• These values are modified to be slightly higher than the default unarmed move costs as this is a damage increasing weapon. Because the move costs are being decreased significantly, this should be a much smoother transition.

Thoughts?

---

No, bring our knockdown costs in line with all the other classes HAM costs. Everything else sounds interesting, but I fail to see how us having really high HAM cost and you UPPING the HAM costs for our weapons is going to help? I understand you're reducing action, but big deal, action can be healed. What about the mind cost on knucklers going up?!