Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Some proposals for TKA
Mr. Koster,
Thanks for posting something, anything. I appreciate your indication that these are ideas and that they are subject to change as reflected by our reactions to them. I also can appreciate your allusion to the future balancing of certain other overpowered classes, mainly with regard to PvP. Thank you for stating this (albeit ever sosubtley)and clearing up the perception that some classes (mainly TKA) were being nerfed out of PvP viability with no hope of ever competing with the likes of pistoleers (I'm not advocating the nerfing of pistoleers, btw -- Mr. Koster has already all but confirmed that it's coming.)
I understand thatthe dev team is shooting for true balance among all the classes. I understand that all the classes cannot recieve thier balancing all on the same day, in one gigantic patch -- you don't have the resources available (for whatever reason.) So, when you apply balance changes to one class at a time that class seems to spin wildly off kilter as compared to the other as-of-yet-unbalanced classes.Apparently, the other classes' timesare coming. Eventually, after 6-8 months of this tweaking across the board we should see order and balance throughout the galaxy.
Now, I think what we really need here is a solid affirmation from youof the above (given that the above is acurate) and a solemn, sincere vow that no one's class will be considered the red-headed-stepchild of SW:G when you all are done. And please see to it that the community is listened to. I know it's all about the money, but come on; we all love Star Wars here.
If the game is balanced within 6-8 months, no one will get lynched 8)
That said, I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult my intelligence by calling better "better" and bad "different". K? I'm 33 years old, man. Just don't even try stuff like that any more.And I do understand and am happythat the base costs are lower and all, but still... Just post honestly and take your medicine, please. You know as well as I do that when people see you shadily spinning words, they start to look at you sideways. How's that help you unless its some wierd, machiavellian ploy to divert some of the attention from the items some will perceive as nerfs, and perhaps goad some of our more militant advocates into a conveniently banable personal assault upon you. Nah, that's way too left-field.
Also, some food for thought: I've been a martial artists for 13 years and a black belt for 8. If someone wants to use a pistol against me, then they'd better shoot me. If they turn it around and try to hit me with it, then they better hope I'm in a good mood; they'll get toted off by the fuzz with just a broken arm and hurt feelings. Bad mood = thier family needs to go ahead and cancel Christmas 'cause daddy isn't coming home tonight. Pistolwhip vs. TKA is absurd, even in Star Wars --trust me. Please let the TKA defense changes/pistoleer balancing reflect this.
Thanks again!
god this debate will go on forever.. fact of the matter only a few things have stayed static.. these are the things holo should listen to.. who cares that we dont have a ranged attack christ it was only 92 skill points to learn.. try another 92 for pistoleer like me
what has stayed static and i agree whole heartedly.. (sorry holo)
KD for tka is wayyyyyy over priced.. not only for pvp but for pve.. i got owned by three wrix's that conned light blue because i failed 2 knockdowns... and even if i had won.. not that i need the unarmed exp anymore but lol a whopping 50+ a pop come on
a serious look at things ok... you wanna fix kd.. you wanna keep reds from being owned by kd?.. this is how you do it.. anything that is white or above to a certain skill set give them higher resistances.. say if joe blow tka master wanted to take on a white ST.. he uses kd.. fine normal resistances apply.. now lets say if Joe wanted to take on lets say hmm a baz nitch which is yellow for a master then that baz should have a higher chance to disregard the move... now if Joe wanted to try and knock down a nightsister or rancor or anything that is red.. Joe is out of luck... Joe can waste all his time in the world trying but it just aint gonna happen..
restore kd to a more manageable cost.. really even non tka's think the cost is insane.. im not talkin bout the spoiled lil nerf herders on these boards.. im talkin bout the players in game that dont come here
that knockdown fix can work in pvp too..
example
Bobby PoPgun sees Joe Blow doing a mission for faction yet Bob is an imp and Joe is a reb BoB is overt Joe is not.. BoB tries to underhand shot Joe to cheese him to a certain doom.. Noe Joe is a MASTER TKA and well BoB just got underhand shot today, two missions ago taught by cheese wiz, ok! Joe Blow should not be able to be knocked down.. why? because Bob is a noob and he knows that if things stay as they are.. there aint nothing Joe can do about it but fall down and take blaster burns? no but because Bob is not a master therefore not comparable to Joe's skill level
on the same token.. Joe see's mr Walken Adog they decide to fight.. Mr Adog decides to whip either 1 rancor... or better yet to actuate my point an at-s-freekin-t.. well Joe aint knockin nothin down.. Joe's days of Overt fighting are done untill he goes to see mr recruit you for the underdog faction..
return the KD's to normal states and instead use this system... it will make life so much easier on you guys
ALSO MAKE US ABLE TO HIT WHILE RUNNING DAMMIT 
Holocron wrote:
Keep in mind that the action and mind cost for the vibroknucklers should be completly outweighted by the reduction in the base special move cost. In other words, it goes down by a large percentage, then goes up by 7 points.
Archon007 wrote:
I do not like the increase in ACTION &MIND COST, it's already way out of control.
Thanks for you comment. But it still doesn't make sense, you're talking in vague terms.
Keep in mind that the action and mind cost for the vibroknucklers should be completly outweighted by the reduction in the base special move cost.
What reduction in the base special move cost? Are you taking about another one or the one that went into effect with the big patch? Because, if you're talking about the one that went in already it wasn't a reduction at all, it was (different) as you would put it. As the TKA population would say it was WORSE.
If you talking about a new reduction or correction, then I would like more info about that because your post does not make reference to a Action & Mind reduction, only an Action reduction.
TheDarkTrumpet wrote:
he's trying to help...at least what we are asking is being heard. Lets try to take this one step at a time, halo himself said that not everything can be fixed in one day. lets not try to enhance this problem by directly attacking halo. At least the changes are mostly in the right direction, better than what was going on.
Things do get fixed in one day.
Apparently, the rifleman got some of their t21 problems fixed in one day. Take a look at the developer's posts and see what Holocron had to say. The rifleman designer seems to be working and taking a look at the issues.
What does the TK designer need to get a clue? Help us help you Mr. TK designer. The Rifleman, Ranger, and CH designer are making you look bad.
Holocron wrote:
That's what lunge is supposed to be.
Archon007 wrote:
"Blasters are a superior weapon at a distance" - I don't think anyone would or could argue this fact, but puting no abilty to close that DISTANCE was foolish and disturbing.
I'd like to point out Holocron you said "supposed to be." not that's what "lunge is for" so that would indicate to me it's not working as you plan. Are you planing on fixing this?
Also Lunge has a range of 15 meters, so what am I supposed to do if my target is 17 meters away? He can run away or forward me as fast as I can so I can't catch or get away from him without Burst which has a 5 minute timer?
I think you've heard more than once all melee classes would like some sort of speed reduction for range weapon users when firing a weapon, maybe 10%... How about that?
Holocron wrote:
OK--don't measure against PvP. If you measure against other unabalanced professions, you're going to be lacking an objective baseline.
Glad to hear that you are admitting that the professions are unbalanced. Streching that statement a bit, would bring me to paying to Beta test SWG since it is not close to balanced or release ready.
I think you guys should suck it up and give us all 3 free months.
I will add though I think balancing the game on PvE is a HUGE mistake since the END GAME is PvP, you can make easy adjustments to mobs. Your mob doesn't spam KD, but real people do, just one example of how your BASELINE thinking is flawed.
the lunge moves should keep a player from moving and attacking for a bit , even if they spam "stand"
either this or the lunge should posture or knockdown, and then cause the runner to move very slowly for a few seconds.
the vibroknuckles and knockdown should cost less when the knockdown misses, when it hits, fine... it maims us too somehow. And if it succeeds we should have to attack at least 4-5 times with other attacks before we can use it again. Or measure the timer in seconds , whatever works.
VKs, I hear don't even help for TKA masters, so they are just a HAM cost increasing weapon for TKMs?
what if there were new kind of VKs at TK master cert?
bezerk animation needs to be changed. right now its a big fat target on our foreheads in PvP.
Holocron, while I doubt you'll actually read this or reply 
please, do me a favor and explain your line of thinking. What logic you're following, because I can't see it. I know many other TKA's can't see it, and I know alot of people from other professions can't see it either.
Please explain to me why melee knockdown should be more expensive than ranged users as far as HAM costs. It really makes absolutelyno sense, I'm sorry.
Fact: Melee are at a disvantage by having to be within melee / attack range of a creature to perform not only knockdown, but other special moves, and normal attacks.
Fact: Ranged attackers do not have to be in melee range of a creature to perform special moves, normal attacks, or knockdowns (see disarmingshot2 (read: ae knockdown)). This is a very large advantage to them.
Fact: Ranged attackers can run away from creatures while spamming other, non-knockdown special moves, effectively keeping themselves out of melee range while the creature tries to attack.
Fact: Melee can do neither of the above two things. We have to be in melee range to fight it. If we can't use knockdown, we get hit, always. If knockdown falis, we get hit, always. If the creature stands up, we get hit, always.
Fact: Ranged users do not suffer from this, because of their ranged advantage. If they can't use knockdown, they can kite. If knockdown fails, they can kite, or attempt to reapply it before the creature catches up to them. If the creature stands up, they can reapply it before it gets to them.
Fact: If our knockdown is 600+ ham per use with weapon equipped, we do more damage to ourselves than to our enemies at the present time.
Fact: Ranged attackers do more damage to creatures than they do to themselves with special moves.
Fact: All of the above goes for pvp as well. Melee must be in range, gun users are not restricted.
Fact: There is currently no meaningful penalty at all for being a ranged attacker. You are not snared by carrying heavy weaponry. Your accuracy may decrease, but not enough to matter. You can spam special moves while running, regardless of the fact that it should take intense concentration to do that.
Given all of the above, Holo.. Why should we be higher cost than gun users? I really do not see where you're coming from on this.
Gun users have the advantage of range, of always being able to get the first hit off, of being able to effectively keep us out of range of them until we're dead, every time.. and yet, they can do all this while having lower HAM costs for specials than we do.
Note that I'm not comparing ourselves to a pistoleer, or any other "master". I'm using a novice marksman with a CDEF as an example. I've seen TKMasters kited by one, and the novice marksman will always win, since there's no effective way to catch up, and since they can use special moves while we're moving.
Please, for the love of god, explain to me, I just don't understand.
I've layed out a proposal in another thread, one which allows for PVP to be alot more balanced, without making us gods, and while taking away the "god status" that ranged attackers hold over melee professions atm, does not make them worthless.
It's fairly simple. Ranged attackers should not be able to perform special moves while moving (You could limit this to knockdowns AND specific pool-targeting shots). There should also be a 'cooldown' period after they stop, albeit a short one. In line with the time it takes to start meditating, or starting a dance/song after you move.
Why? Because it's not realistic ( and I can tell you guys care about realisim alot from your other posts, "dont bring a gun to a knife fight", etc 
) that someone with a rifle is going to be able to aim at my head while moving. Sorry, not going to happen in real life, didn't happen in the movies, shouldn't happen here. A pistoleer isn't going to be able to aim at a specific part of my body each time while moving either. He might hit the head area, leg, a foot, or the shoulder. The same goes for carbines.
Since you care about realisim more than the continuity (judging by the fact that in pure melee combat, we can not take out a Jedi in this game at master level (since they don't use force powers currently)), I'd ask that you remain consistant in your views on what realism is.
You take the good with the bad when you take that stance, so stick to it fully, or not at all.
god this debate will go on forever.. fact of the matter only a few things have stayed static.. these are the things holo should listen to.. who cares that we dont have a ranged attack christ it was only 92 skill points to learn.. try another 92 for pistoleer like me
what has stayed static and i agree whole heartedly.. (sorry holo)
KD for tka is wayyyyyy over priced.. not only for pvp but for pve.. i got owned by three wrix's that conned light blue because i failed 2 knockdowns... and even if i had won.. not that i need the unarmed exp anymore but lol a whopping 50+ a pop come on
a serious look at things ok... you wanna fix kd.. you wanna keep reds from being owned by kd?.. this is how you do it.. anything that is white or above to a certain skill set give them higher resistances.. say if joe blow tka master wanted to take on a white ST.. he uses kd.. fine normal resistances apply.. now lets say if Joe wanted to take on lets say hmm a baz nitch which is yellow for a master then that baz should have a higher chance to disregard the move... now if Joe wanted to try and knock down a nightsister or rancor or anything that is red.. Joe is out of luck... Joe can waste all his time in the world trying but it just aint gonna happen..
restore kd to a more manageable cost.. really even non tka's think the cost is insane.. im not talkin bout the spoiled lil nerf herders on these boards.. im talkin bout the players in game that dont come here
that knockdown fix can work in pvp too..
example
Bobby PoPgun sees Joe Blow doing a mission for faction yet Bob is an imp and Joe is a reb BoB is overt Joe is not.. BoB tries to underhand shot Joe to cheese him to a certain doom.. Noe Joe is a MASTER TKA and well BoB just got underhand shot today, two missions ago taught by cheese wiz, ok! Joe Blow should not be able to be knocked down.. why? because Bob is a noob and he knows that if things stay as they are.. there aint nothing Joe can do about it but fall down and take blaster burns? no but because Bob is not a master therefore not comparable to Joe's skill level
on the same token.. Joe see's mr Walken Adog they decide to fight.. Mr Adog decides to whip either 1 rancor... or better yet to actuate my point an at-s-freekin-t.. well Joe aint knockin nothin down.. Joe's days of Overt fighting are done untill he goes to see mr recruit you for the underdog faction..
return the KD's to normal states and instead use this system... it will make life so much easier on you guys
ALSO MAKE US ABLE TO HIT WHILE RUNNING DAMMIT
Elanae wrote:There is not a TKA around that complains about taking on even "con" creatures in combat. We are FINE there.
Speak for yourself and NOT for others.
I'd like to chime in my two cents here...
I -thought- I was fine taking on even cons.... I have 1/1/2/0 Novice medic.... BUT... I got bugged and couldn't pull out of my stimpack crate anymore. (and only the stimpack crate)
I've gotten almost beat-down by kaadu several times in the past day... And I'm 0/1/3/1 TK novice. And it was always my health pool getting drained down.
One solution might be to let the "Body shot" "Head Shot?" and "Leg Shot" specials have a lasting effect, i.e. since currently they cost me as much HAM as they do my opponent, and we are supposed to be unarmed masters, why can't we continue targeting the same pool? Now, I have no idea what costs are for other pool target effects, but in PVP I always have -one- pool drained, all the rest of the HAM drain comes from my own specials. Or maybe some sort of targeting accuracy built into the meditation line, as you go up further boxes you'll get more accurate at targeting the most depleted pool, up to say 50% accuracy?
I dunno. I'm glad I don't have to be the nerf-herder on this game. I bet Raph and the rest order mylanta by the case and do shots of it like accountants do tequilla.
Neko
The nerf is already done. WE ARE NOT being nerfed again! Stop saying "Don't nerf TKs" because we aren't being nerfed. We've already been nerfed, now we're taking the things that sucked to begin with and making them usable (high level abilities),