Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Some proposals for TKA
Hmm. Well, if we're really supposed to go 50/50 with Nym's brawlers, then yeah, we are still over powered. I can thrash those guys, even after the patch, and have more than 1/2 my HAM left every time. Even more so now that I can have a lv 15 pet. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.
Holo, you're going to have to do a dramatic reset of player expectations. However, the 12th page of this post isn't the place to do it. If I may, I suggest you go post a sticky on the general forum detailing what a master of an elite combat profession should and shouldn't be able to solo. Tell players to expect to be nerfed to this point. Tell them that it's coming and that they should be ready for it. That's the way to reset player expectations. Most people will never understand it if you don't do it big.
I've said this once and I'll say it again - this is the single best way to fix all these problems:
Make Knockdowns to half the damage range of weapon used if not 0.
What does this do?
1.Spamming would be near useless.
2.Promotes strategy
3.Gives riflemen a chance in battles to do some damage.
4.You can seperate the whiners from the people who understand strategic combat.
5.RL example: I can knockdown someone by pushing them or hitting them but the real damage is done when they are on the ground, I have to start kicking or punching them in the kidneys.
6.Would bring all the classes in line with eachother.
7.Would make mobs a LOT harder, why? People give up when something takes too long to kill, and eventually the mob WILL get an attack and outright destroy said knockdown-artist.
8.And most importantly, you could drop the cost of knockdown again - why? Because the damage it would do - near none if not none - would make it a reasonable equation.
This is coming from a Pistoleer/CH/MasterSmuggler:
I use knockdown. I use Lowblow & Pistol Melee Defense and I also draw animals out with animals. ATM my knockdowns do enough damage that I dont mind the cost. If you dropped the damage to nothing and made it JUST that a knockdown - I would be more than happy. PVP would last longer, mobs would be conversely made more powerful due to amount of extra damage needed - and TKA's would be an incredible class again.
In other words: Change knockdown to zero damage, make it cost 20-30 HAM, and never hear from the real players again about it being pussified. If someone complains, again, they don't know what strategy is.
/Naruto
Holocron wrote:
Archon007 wrote:"Blasters are a superior weapon at a distance" - I don't think anyone would or could argue this fact, but puting no abilty to close that DISTANCE was foolish and disturbing.
That's what lunge is supposed to be.
Sadly, lunge doesn't do much good for me. I unarmed lunged/dizzy/stunned an Imp tonight. He got up, ran away, then his friend used Knockdown Fire on me, made me dizzy, and I fell down twice and couldn't get back up. I tried to get back up again, but was so dizzy I fell again. Then burst blast was used on me 3x (draining my action pool I believe) and then Stopping Shot was applied for 416 damage. Needless to say, 15 seconds after the fight started (Did I mention I had just cloned so -I- got to start the fight?) I was DB'd again.
I'm giving up on PVP for now. After that battle, my faction pets poofed when I tried to store them, so I couldn't recall my backup.
Oh well. Maybe I'll get a gun and lay the smack down, as the man say, WWCYFD? (What would Chow Yun Fat do?) Neko
(just kidding, I'll never give up unarmed. Guns are for the weak)
It's not even about the knockdown itself. It's about rendering our class useless. I dare any fanboi to argue the postives of the "fix" when a TK MASTER gets told they are not welcome in a group and/or told they have to pay the medic up front for stimpacks. A MASTER. This is ridiculous!!!
I don't think the high level TK's even care about knockdown, I know I don't ... It is the main focus because it was our only means of effectively fighting/tanking/competing with the mobs that even con white to us.When ouronly true means of effectively fighting is taken away. What do you expect?
If we gotsome kind of re-workto our specials, increased our dodge, defense whatever, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Give us something besides shining theturd that are TK specials the way they are now.GIve us a balanced, effective means of fighting and I guarantee 95% of the TK's will be satisfied.
first of all,THANK YOURaph/holocron for taking an active role in trying to please us as customers and make the game more enjoyable for us. I really do appreciate your effort here in this thread.
I like most of your proposal, Raph. I do think we need to have some type of advantage that allows us to close in on an opponent in PvP, however. Nothing major, but SOME type of slight advantage that is ONLY accessible through TKA. Unarmed brawlers should alwayshave a disadvantageagainst a pistol marksman, but a TKA against a pistoleer should be, at the very least, evenly matched. Even if such an ability is only accessible at master level. Do you understand where I am coming from? I hope so...
PLEASE, with KNOCKDOWN... if you can put it back the way it used to be, that would be great. If you can do something to lower the costs for knockdown AT ALL, that would be okay.
I would like to bring up something that hasn't really been mentioned, and I'm sure it isn't THAT important, but....
I feel that meditation should give some SLIGHT boost in HAM bar regeneration. Even if only slight, it would be nice to know that while meditating, the HAM bar can regenerate/recover from "damage" quicker than just normally sitting. Once again I reiterate, SLIGHT increase in HAM bar regeneration.
Thanks again Raph for listening to us, and I REALLY do appreciate you taking an active role to listen to our opinions and help make things better.
Holocron, My 2 creds:
Thanks for letting us know you are looking at it at least. Its a good start.
Tonight I was leading a group on Lok with some ranged players. I was standind toe-to-toe with the mobs while everyone else stood back and shot. I used KD as crowd control for the group, but when it missed 2,3, or 4 times, I was the one getting capped while everyone else ran away. And if I had VKs on by mistake, I hardly had enough mind left to heal myself. Even the pistoleer I was with thought it was a bit much. But as a TKA I have little other role to play.
While I don't think we were overpowered pre-nerf (I know I died lots), I could personally settle for having KD halved. If it was about 100 HAM (in line with other classes) I think it would be useable and keep me out of the clone centre a bit more than I am now. And I don't mean that to be "100 so 150 is fair" -I mean that as 100. This allows for some failures, another option is to severely reduce the cost of a failed KD. Also, it shouldn't kill us to use VK on KDs. It's not that much of a damage bonus. I think a more fair "penalty" is in the 200 HAM range.
Some of the other changes sound good.Not a big fan of having mind drain increased anywhere but I see where you are going with the percentage decrease + point increase back.
I'm new to the PvP arena, butthe other day I got strafe shot by a rifleman for the first time. Even with the damage decrease he took me out in 3 shots. All's I could think was "if I could just get there to knock...wait I'd just hurt myself, he'd get up before I could do any damage, and shoot me some more". Fair enough he can kill me with a gun at range, but I shouldn't feel that way about getting in close.
I consider this to be relatively objective. It would make me feel more useful in groups and solo. Ideally KD would go back to pre-nerf, as I said, I managed to find lots to kill me then.It's no fun running back from the clone centre while the group has to wait for you. I'm finally a master TKA and almost embarrassed of it.
Aurilius.Starsider.mTKA
Holo, sorry for adding to the confusion here (i know that keeping up with this thread must be a pain), so I'll make this very quick.
There was some discussion of giving HAM bonuses to the TKAs for being the 'tank' of the group, or increases our defense vs melee and more important ranged attacks. Any comments on this thought?
Thanks for taking time to address our issues.
You gave a list of many monsters which should be 50/50 for a TK master. I hope that you mean a TK Master without additioan medic skills or the requirment to take some specific other line. If I want to be a TK master and then dump all my other skills into entertaining or artisian, I should still be able to be a powerful force in melee combat and PvE.
My problem is that it's one thing to list a "Nym Brawler" for example, and say we should be able to fight that. But that's not really that helpful. I had fun last night on Lok because of I was finging all kinds of Nyms and losing some times and winning others. If I have to trying to run all over Lok to different lairs just so I can find the ONE kind of Nym I can handle without dying, well that's just as bad as anything else. I'm not so hung up on "con" anymore. I don't care what color the con is, I care how challenging the fight is, and how much experience I can obstain reasonably in a fun fight. The only reason I could do that however, was because I have medic skills in the background. Without those, I would have been dead over and over again.
You did list a bunch of monsters we should be able to right - at Master I believe - and RIGHT NOW. The issue is, I don't think it is fair or appropriate to make TKs any weaker in PvE. I don't mind if we are at a disadvantage in PvP if that is counter balanced by an equally porportioned ADVANTAGE in PvE. Then if I choose to play the class I can simply accept that I will be better at PvE than PvP. What I don't like is to be horrible at PvP AND AT THE SAME TIME watch as the company chooses to nerf PvE as well. There is no excuse for that. The reason the class is "balanced" in that former (and not latter) context and why not everyone would rush to be a TK is because even thoug we should be very strong, if not the strongest soloing class in PvE, we should also take a very stiff penalty in PvP. That's how its balanced out. We will never be as good as ranged weapons users in pvp - I accept that, and I don't think that is wrong. BUT RANGED WEAPONS USERS SHOULD NOT BE AS GOOD AS US IN PVE. That's a fair tradeoff...
Right now a guy with a pistol rules everything and is the most overpowered class I've ever experiened. I'm not even asking to be made equal with them. I'm asking that we be able to be EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD at *****SOMETHING****** Doesn't have to be everything, just... something....
The class needs a niche, where it can do very very well. I think it should be PvE - they would go a long way to blancing out the disadvangaes of PvP.
How would devs go about making that happen? Well, I am not yelling right now, I am about to use caps to highlight an important part: THEY COULD START BE ACTUALLY CAREFULLY READING OUR CORRESPONDANTS SECOND TK REPORT AND IMPLEMENTING THOSE CHANGES. None of them would make us PvP gods - in fact we would still suck. But it would help us be strong in PvP.
That's my bit. Pleasure discussing it with ya.
Laur
Words cannot express how much I agree with this.
Selwynn posted:
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"In other words: Change knockdown to zero damage, make it cost 20-30 HAM, and never hear from the real players again about it being pussified. "
Words cannot express how much I agree with this.
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I agree with that too.
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"In other words: Change knockdown to zero damage, make it cost 20-30 HAM, and never hear from the real players again about it being pussified. "
Words cannot express how much I agree with this.
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I like the sounds of this!
Heh... go visit the rifleman forum right now, or the creature handler forum anytime, and so on, if you really think that we're singling you guys out for nerfing. We are not playing favorites. We simply cannot change everything in one day.
Considering the fact that TKA already sitfar to the left,at the Totally Underpowered position on the combat efficiency 'spectrum', why should we be nerfed at all? If anything, shouldn't we GAIN something? Please, explain yourself, Holo.
Logic would seem to dictate that you are trying to achieve balance (of some sort) between the professions, right? So why weaken the profession that is alreadyone of the weakest ... even more? You've been nerfing us non-stop since the game's release.Now, you opening (finally) admit that pistoleers are way too freakin' powerful. And yet, here you are ...saying you're going to nerf US again.
The only difference now is that we're supposed to believe you when you say that "We are not playing favorites." Clearly, however, you HAVE been 'playing favorites' (with ranged combat classes), or you would have never nerfed KD in the first place, nor posted thatimmortal (and equally lame)remark "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight." (I'm sorry, that remark just tarnishes everything you say.)
Why should we believe anything you say at this point, Holo? Give us one reason?
The truth is that TKA shouldn't be nerfednow or any time in the future... that is, unless you plan to make pistoleers crushingly weaker (i.e., broken), which, let's face it--you're NOT going to do, are you? Don't even try to claim that you're going to 'balance' pistoleer with TKA (in some fashion) after you nerf us for the third time. It just doesn't 'wash', and you know it--that's why you're avoiding the whole PvP debate.
Honestly Holo, all you're doing at this point is alienating your audience with insults and sophistry. Every time I read this board, Imove closer and closer to just giving up on you altogether. And that---well, that's the greatest tragedy of all, isn't it?