Teras Kasi Archive

Thread: The future of TKA under the new combat pass

Tal-N
Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:36 pm
#14




every prof is about spamming specials not simply tka it would seem to me.


Indeed, thats why the devs are changing things so that spamming is no longer the only solution to combta 90% of the time. I remember quite vividly them saying the new system means that alternating specials that strike the target gain a damage multiplying. For melee professions this is great since we have so many combat moves. So we can string together blind, dizzy, knockdown, stun attacks with the damage multiplier rising after each special successfully works, soon as you miss though the damage multipler is reset. Also the new HAM system will mean spamming isn't as easy since you cannot heal the cost that the special had on you.




secondly your idea about being a more defensive than offensiveis that fencer is the defensive melee class. that have more defences and their dps is less then tka.



Currently Fencer is defensive yes. However I feel that weapon professions should be inherantly more powering in damage terms than unarmed for the simple fact they are using a weapon. However I do recognise Fencer as being little more than TKA with weapon in one hand which is why I suggested that it work like a balance between offence and defence that every group needs at its heart so it can adapt. It makes so much more sense for someone with a double handed sword to cause more damage per blow than someone using their fists. However to keep the balance you need to ensure that both have a weakness, in the case of TKA it would be low damage, high defence.





third is why waste your time applying stats affects on a mob when its just a 1 out of the 100s of pikets u have to kill.


Because some of us aren't grinding the profession and fight things other than pickets. Also think about masters, they aren't going to waste their time fighting pickets so they'll be after the bigger game and the harder fights. A good 70% of the mobs in this game have social Ai and group aggro. Hit one of them and you have a whole group to deal with, making TKA the heart of dealing with groups and it becomes a very enjoyable profession to fight with. Pickets are a prime example where you hit one and the whole herd it onto you, rather than needing to spam specials to stay alive if your normal attacks have the side effect of weaking the enemy and your specials allow you to hit multiple opponents with status effects then you can deal with them alot easier. That way you can focus on one enemy while you know that the others are already debuffed. It's about playing smarter, not playing harder in the end. TK is supposed to be about mind over matter, not raw power.






Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

KnapweedD
Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:39 pm
#15

Tal-N quoth:

No, the art and the order was designed to create an organisation who monitered and watched over the Jedi to ensure they didn't fall out of line. They focussed entirely on self defence more than anything else, when you have an opponent who is able to slice you in two and use the Force against you it's better to disarm and disable them rather than run in and beat the crap out of them without any thought. Currently TKA is about spamming specials as fast as possible rather than defending yourself as Teras Kasi is supposed to work.


Logic would dictate that cannot be. If Teras Kasi are there to Police Jedi, they can't do that defensively. Imagine a cop walking up to a mobster and saying 'I will arrest you only if you try and shoot me, cos I'm only supposed to defend'. Strike one cop. They are empowered to use 'deadly force' in order to prevent a fatality or serious injury, e.g. a Mobster has a gun and tries to take a hostage - blammo! No defence but proactive policing. Same with Teras Kasi, they have to have the ability to take the fight to the Jedi or there is no way they can police them. They HAVE to have offensive capability.


Let's look at that defensive capability as it is now. I can walk up to a Enraged Rancor Lair, without any armour and just smack the nest cos it's boring to take them out one at a time. I can stand there with four Enraged Rancors slapping me around and take them out at my leisure. I would call that pretty good defences, wouldn't you? I can imagine how popular it would be in the community if we had even more defence. Just in case you don't share my imagination, they would be a tad upset.


Teras Kasi, by their nature, are loners rather than team players. Do you know of ANY martial art where you recieve training for fighting in a group? There are katas based on fighting a group, but none based on being a group member. Of course you can't limit your playstyle that way but the profession, and its skill base, should take account of the fact it is a player who is strong on soloing. Fortunately, the game reflects exactly that. Teras Kasi have the ability to heal all wounds, including mind wounds, disease and poison. They have the defensive and offensive capability to make them effective soloists even if they choose to play in a group.


I would like to see a genuine role for Teras Kasi but I really do believe the Devs have got this one right in terms of capability. If it ain't broke, don't fix it - and I don't believe it's broke.
Leonae
Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:55 am
#16

I really wish you would not treat this game as a pure melee combat game, with neatly stacking pikeman, fencer, swordsman and TKA while not considering ranged professions. IMHO, melee combat should be secondary to ranged combat, something you use when facing opponents in close quarters, not something you use in the field. This is Star Wars, where blasters rule.

I did not master TKA to beat down everyone everywhere, but because it was the only unarmed fighting profession available, and fit my character concept. I did not and don't expect to have a viable chance against a ranged fighter outside a building.
Tal-N
Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:06 pm
#17





Logic would dictate that cannot be. If Teras Kasi are there to Police Jedi, they can't do that defensively. Imagine a cop walking up to a mobster and saying 'I will arrest you only if you try and shoot me, cos I'm only supposed to defend'. Strike one cop. They are empowered to use 'deadly force' in order to prevent a fatality or serious injury, e.g. a Mobster has a gun and tries to take a hostage - blammo! No defence but proactive policing. Same with Teras Kasi, they have to have the ability to take the fight to the Jedi or there is no way they can police them. They HAVE to have offensive capability.



In america yes, however in the UK the Police are taught self defence and how to defend themselves. Just because american cops have the option to shoot someone in self defence doesn't mean that is how it's done all over the world. Disarming someone and usingtechniques to put the aggressor as a disatvantage is a civilized way than shooting them or whatever. Teras Kasi was the orders way to allow them to moniter the Jedi, they didn't go into war with them however they needed to be able to defend themselves. If someone is force resistant and able to disarm a Jedi then you're left with a normal person who simply has good reflexes. A TK isn't going to last long against a Jedi with brute force, however if they take away the things that make the Jedi powerful (namely the Force and the lightsabre) then you are perfectly safe from them. The TK dislike the concept of power without control, thats why they exist. Remember, it's possible to have power without control, however with control there is always power.





Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

MavilDune3333
Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:27 pm
#18






Tal-N wrote:




as you miss though the damage multipler is reset. Also the new HAM system will mean spamming isn't as easy since you cannot heal the cost that the special had on you.






more good news for swordsmen and pikeman



Vilam Dune
awentwor
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:30 pm
#19

"Remember, it's possible to have power without control, however with control there is always power."


Tell that to the former dictator of Iraq... complete control, yet where is he now? lol


Power is achieved when you can give the aura of power. TKA presently do this. They go in, with good defenses, and can quickly take down an oponent. And I stress... TAKE DOWN, hence KnockDown. That is there single largest advantage in this game... they knock an oponent down and proceed to beat on them relentlessly. In case anyone out there haven't taken a true hand to hand combat training course, knocking down your oponent is key and following up that knockdown with a flurry of attacks is essential. TKA does this... and I think the Dev's finally got a class right when they put TKA together.


For all you ranged professions out there that cry Nerf due to the TKA being too powerful, I'm going to give you some insite in how to quickly and effectively defeat them. Get a Fencer (great melee defenses) to engage a TKA master. If the Fencer is smart (and he should be) he'll be in 80% Kinetic Protection armor to defend against those hits that do get through. Now... while the TKA Master is occupied with the Fencer, take a Rifleman Headshot3 him TWICE to take him down. If the Rifleman is master, the battle is over in under 5 seconds.


Remember back in the day when Commandos got their class fixed by the addition of the Flamethrower. What happened? Everyone flocked to being a Commando and using Fire DoT's against everyone, effectively ruling PvP. When people cried Nerf, Commandos fought back by saying they are only affective within 20m. Hmmm.... TKA only affective within 20m... Hmm... weakness maybe???


People need to stop crying Nerf at powerful classes and just discover the weaknesses with them. Develop some tactics to defeat these classes instead of going toe-to-toe with them (especially TKA, they like toe-to-toe). Play smart, and stop screwing the classes before the Dev's get tired of all the cry-babies out there with their whining from stubbed-toes and fix the classes by making them all as powerful as a Gnort!





Kypp Darksider
|| Teras Kasi Master || Swordsman || Doctor ||

garvin
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:40 pm
#20

Isn't the role of the TKA to hunt down and eliminate the jedi?


Like Tal-N stated above...the purpose of TKA was to keep the Jedi's in line...this is the main reason I think, since BH's can hunt Jedi's for the Empire, TKA's should be able to hunt Dark Jedi's....Anytime a Jedi takes that Dark Path TKA's should be able to sense them...and if they are in the vicinity of the TKA they should show up as a red dot...


Ok...crazy thoughts...I'll stop now...lol



Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

Baccadinio
Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:45 pm
#21

Tal-N


let me first open by saying this is a great idea I think playing a TKA liek you suggest would be amazing fun. Im kinda new to the game (ok kinda old but i dont play all that much) and dont know of any class thats a Debuffer and as you have the "new tka" thought out would be an excellent addition to the game.


now that being said: I have to agree with alot of people here TKA IS one of the most ballanced classes in the game and if this change was put into effect then we would be one of the most bugged and FUBARed classes in the game.


your ideas are excellent and pretty well thought out keepem comeing please.


and for those trolls that think that hes trying to think of SWG as a mellee game hes not. mellee profs are the tanks of the game in most hunts from what ive seen. they get up close and personal while the ranged profs stand back semi safely and let loose. if you want we could possible apply this template to ranged profs too. let have the pistoller apply the status effects and debuffs, the carbinercan be used as a group/area damage dealer and the rifleman the "hybrid" that can put on some effects and deals decent damage as well. the cammado would be the tank of the ranged profs that does massive amouts of damage to one target at close range and perhaps a few AoE attacks as well. the bounty hunter would stay were is stands as the "elite" ranged prof that has a pretty good mix of everything.


this IS a good idea Tal even if its not the best time to implement it


Baccadinio


Tal-N
Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:03 pm
#22





Tell that to the former dictator of Iraq... complete control, yet where is he now? lol



Control just like power is never absolute, someone canalways take it away. However the greater control you have over your power the harder it is for that to happen. Just like it's easy to seperate a leader from his army, but try to seperate a man defending his only child when he is standing right there beside them. The power to destroy is easy to come by, it takes no courage, no force of will and no commitment. The power to control a situation requires so much more... knowledge and wisdow being at the very heart of what is needed to control anything. Iggnorance can still destroy which is why it is weaker and TK is built to have better values than the Jedi code.


Some people will always want more power, however in doing so it means less thinking and thus less involvement in the fight. That ultimately leads to a detatchment from what happens which ends in less enjoyable gameplay. It would be so much better if TK was given more options in a fight which were all valuable in different situations, it's gotten to a point now where I have one combo for all situations against animals and one against NPCs. It would be so better to actually have to think about the fight at every step like when I'm fighting against a group of tough mobs at the same time.





Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

KnapweedD
Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:56 pm
#23



Tal-N quoth:


In america yes, however in the UK the Police are taught self defence and how to defend themselves. Just because american cops have the option to shoot someone in self defence doesn't mean that is how it's done all over the world. Disarming someone and usingtechniques to put the aggressor as a disatvantage is a civilized way than shooting them or whatever. Teras Kasi was the orders way to allow them to moniter the Jedi, they didn't go into war with them however they needed to be able to defend themselves. If someone is force resistant and able to disarm a Jedi then you're left with a normal person who simply has good reflexes. A TK isn't going to last long against a Jedi with brute force, however if they take away the things that make the Jedi powerful (namely the Force and the lightsabre) then you are perfectly safe from them. The TK dislike the concept of power without control, thats why they exist. Remember, it's possible to have power without control, however with control there is always power.


AlthoughI moved toCanada in 96, I am in fact English, so I do know something about the English Police. The truth is that the 'Armed Response' teams are some of the best trained andmost lethal instrument available to any Police Force, American S.W.A.T. teams included. Police in the UK may not be routinely armed (They are, however, in Northern Ireland, airports and nuclear facilities) but any station can call on an AR team if there is a need for firearms.


I was living in Barnes when an AR team took out a guy on Stepney Bridge (I think it was Stepney). They didn't challenge him in any way, they just ran to the front of the car and shot him through the windscreen. Unfortunately, it was a case of mistaken identity.


I think it is easy to fall into the trap of believing what the media hype tells us, when we live in a Country. The view of the British Bobby walking tall and proud and giving directions to old ladies, protected only by a truncheon is total BS. There were 31 deaths due to Police Shootings between 1990 and 2003. Nothing like America but significant nontheless.


In fact, I think the statistics support the view I laid out that 'lethal capability' is readily available when the situation arises. Similarly, I believe a TK should be primarily defensive BUT unquestionably devastating if the need arises. The problem of course is that you can't programme that choice in. It would have to be a conscious choice by the player, and that is where it fails. You will always get some players who see this game in terms of uberness. The actual role or history of TKs is about as important to them as the EULA, i.e. something to be circumvented, exploited or just plain ignored. With that kind of mindset, it is almost impossible to implement TKs as the literature describes. It is a shame and a missed opportunity. The idea that TKs could have a role in 'policing' Dark Jedi is awesome but, once again, the deviant minority dictate the play style of the majority. It isn't SoE's fault nor is it the fault of the majority of players.


This minorityscrewed up CH, they screwed up the use of AT STs, they screwed up player cities and they will screw up Commandos and TKs. It is as inevitable as it is tragic.

Message Edited by KnapweedD on 02-27-2004 04:57 PM

SkydogHex
Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:49 pm
#24

How effective would this proposed change be for those of us who don't enjoy grouping and prefer soloing? How will it affect us in PVP? All the defensive capabilites mean little if I can't kill my opponent. Raw power has to be part of the equation no matter what otherwise we will be another useless class.




Skydog Hex i Jeedai Wannabee: ISF


tometaophion
Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:16 pm
#25


"I have forseen it"


"twilight is upon me and soon night must fall"


And so shall I begin the slow but sure departure from this game I have begun, since at last realizing the devs have insured a certain set of professions must always win in player competition. This is in no doubt due to their own status as hopeless diehards of a riduclous and pathetic sort. It is of my understanding that their calls to continuity are calls to the extended universe. That lovely EU, a place where aliens run the Imperial fleet in a xenophobic Empire, where Luke Skywalker becomes evil, Where Boba Fett is god, and other complete trash. I tire of it all.


For the preparation of a sudden influx of Jedi caused by the weaknening of the Jedi sytem, relegating it to 'quest' based, ie easily exploited, and subject to complete domination by those that use cheats, hints, and other bull to advance themselves in a game designed to be fair, the devs have begun the vaunting of the natural enemies of these exploitative and lifeless fools, most notably the empowering of the Bounty Hunter and TKA. I am often told of the weaknesses of the bounty hunter. Their weakness is supremely this, that against a prepared opponent that one cannot dispatch in quick and tricky ways, one is a gonner. I believe this is subject to the movies indeed by the deaths of boba and Jango, but that is pure speculation.


The TKA has no weakness. The developers really thought a majority of people would not notice. And Among those TKA who begged and required they be made as strong as Jedi to emphasize continuity , they were constantly and still are constantly given that 'continuity wink' to insure they will always reign. their is no kinetic disadvantage. I posess 80% across the board composite, and 39% stun resist helmets. I also have several shield generators of differing uses. The 2 hand powerhammer, the bh llc, the pikeman vibrolance, the fencers stun baton, all are equally as protected in effect and proportionally as the TKA attack. The difference in pve is a completely different subject. 166 0f 749 listed creatures at www.swgcreatures.com have kinetic resists greater than 30%. The Mitigated DPS of TKM against players is 350, indeed comparative to Rifleman, BH, Some Carbineers. The DPS is 452. Except the speed mod of a TKM is 115 compared to Swordsmans 70. The Result is that TKAs are faster and deadlier than any combat class in the game, including rifleman, and BH. TKA hit the head harder than a swordsman, hith the legs harder than a carbineer or pikeman, and hit all 3 ham bars resulting in an associated dps greater than any weapon in the game.


The most deadly moves of the TKA are giving high delay mods, this does not affect their speed which results in all attacks being performed at 1.0 speed. The result is that their is no careful decisions regarding which attacks to use. other classes, particularly the slower swordsman and pikeman are delayed severely for example ALL TKA attacks, even those at 3x Dmg modifier and 4x time modifier are delivered at 1.0 speed. The Swordsman headhit3 at 4x dmg and 2.25 modifiers arenders a dps less than the TKA, making the TKA the premier head hitting profession. swordsman attack speed with this attack with the above super fast hammer is 2.1, resulting in a dps adjusted for AP after mitigation of 633, compared to the TKA dps in attacks against the head of 1400DPS. The 'delay mod' is meaningless to the TKM, it is a very important factor for all other combat professions.


The disarities in the TKA vs all other class is plainly indicative and represents an undeniable wish of the developers to include an elite class among classes for the 'truly adept and with a clue' to play, whilst they attempt to hold back their laughter at the propensity of other people to navigate to classes they for some reason enjoy yet are hopelessly underpowered. TKA are self sufficient doctors, masters of all forms of martial combat, masters of all form of targeted attack, masters of all forms of defense, in all categories(toughness is all too often overlooked), so on and so on. What follows are my premonitions of the various changes to occur to the combat system to insure a complete ease for Jedi in all combat situtious they may enter completely without fear or repurcussion except against the TKA, in the following changes.


1. A complete removal of the bleed system. This change was supposedly implemented to insure against players bleeding creatures much over their level. Irregardless of the capacity of a group to attain such loot as dropped by these creatures, or a single person to attain such loot, the loot is attained, and introduced to the market with similar ease by a SINGLE person, whether that person be alone or the lucky recipient of the groups efforts. The existence of conceal shot though slow, yet indeed faster, and completely without the creatures attention, than bleeds at a slightly higher dmg modifier is indicative of the fact that pve was not the driving concern for this change. TKA do not have bleeds. Other professions, not acting in terms of EU continuity were able to challenge the 2x disparity in TKA dps with targeted bleeds, in some cases actually defeating them. Commandos were incapping repeatedly after applied flame dots, causing complete wounds to the person, arendering them in medical centers, for, depending on doctor presence, a VERY long time.


2. Healing Of The Mind Pool- Swordsman/Rifleman inaccuracy, and slowness was answered by the fact that they hit an unhealable pool. Often the downfall of TKA is to overuse specials making their mind quite low. The ability of Rifleman and Swordsman to exploit this weakness, and actually defeating them, will result in the removal of the unhealbility of this pool, resulting in Doctor/TKA becoming the most daunting profession to face. Entertainers will become and remain useless, as the healing of the mind pool, will also accompany abilities by doctors to heal mind wounds. This is to facilitate a reliance on special moves and not on HAM, a reliance that will completely vaunt the lord of special moves, TKA, and the lord of special abilities, the Jedi, and completely remove the ability for targeted professions, whose weakenss of slowness and inaccuracy and characteristic low defenses, balanced their ability to strike mind. The current power of the Rifleman is in keeping with the state defenses of pistoller at 4 times that of rifleman, the state effects of carbineer and Bh. The rifleman state changes are wholly useless, their advantage raw power and speed, against a pool that will soon be healable. The advantage will shift from ham attack rate or power, to special moves, which many classes have none, save those which dmg, at modifiers and adjusted dps LOWER than the more flashy classes.


3. 'Profession Specialization' as mentioned by the devs is quite interesting. What professions do a bounty hunter or tka rely on? the answer is none, they are self sufficient, other classes must 'rely on' other classes as mentioned by the devs in the questions posited in the in concept threads. The combat changes, shall assure completel domination by the jacks of all trades, masters of all TKA, BH, and Jedi. The rest should shut up and watch.


4. The vaunting of certain classes is a subconscious conspiracy of the Devfor the insured suitability of their own preferred play experience, in particular with regards the professions that they enjoy playing.


5. The new 'ham bar' idea if accepted and indeed the way combat will occur, will ruin pve and pvp. The changes to the 'creature catalog' will reequire groups to combat a vast majority of creatures in the game, including common creatures found on the more dangerous planets. Fighting in groups is precarious, particularly as sony technology is notoriously pathetic, and all group endeavours, even 30 in a cave, are all too laggy to play competitively.


6. The inability to strike with surprise, power, and quickly deal death to an opponent in pvp, will result in longer combat, presenting more opportunities for group TEF. Combat will be extended and boring, an exchange of standard attacks, a flurry then of knockdowns, state change effects, and a general orgy of wasted stims and other items, due to the extended nature of the combat system whose mind weakness was newly striken. This will no doubt drive the economy but will not present opportunity for a reasonable interest in pvp to be aroused, for their is no clear strategy, save the overemphasization of special attacks, of which some classes have few, and the matching of your combat profession with doctor.


Tal-N
Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:20 am
#26




How effective would this proposed change be for those of us who don't enjoy grouping and prefer soloing? How will it affect us in PVP? All the defensive capabilites mean little if I can't kill my opponent. Raw power has to be part of the equation no matter what otherwise we will be another useless class.



Thats the beauty of this idea, it's aimed at tanking still but the concept is to make the enemy so weak that you can solo them. That is contrast to at the moment because the profession is all about raw power, it's not a case of wearing the enemy down it's a case of hitting them harder than they hit you which simply isn't in the theme of what Teras Kasi is about at it's core. At the moment for example a master TK is able to kill a lone Rancor in somewhere around 20 seconds. That is from spamming damaging specials more than anything else, under this idea you'd actually not need to use specials much as your passive abilities will slowly be wearing their HAM down but they'd be suffering massive (and I do mean massive) debuffs to accuracy, damage and speed meaning they literally aren't hurting you anymore. You'd only use specials to apply a few additional status effects and target specific HAM pools to bring the fight to a close faster.


Think of it as someone using precision strikes to parts of the body to cause specific reactions, something similar to how martial arts based on Praying Mantis styles where it's about knowing where to hit with the right amount of force. Rather than bluddoning the enemy, if you left the power to the weapon melee professions then TKA has a chance to be really creative. In the case of the Rancor fight you'd take around 2 minutes to kill them rather than 20 seconds at master, you can still solo but it will take longer.


One alternative that just occoured to me is that Teras Kasi probably has various styles, since it's basically a form of unarmed combat that is ancient no doubt other styles evolved from it just like Karate was the original form of unarmed combat in the east which lead to various styles that expanding upon it. What if Teras Kasi in this game allowed you to switch between 3 forms. One aimed at raw defence where you have low damage but high defence, the second form is a balance between power and defence like we have now and the third style would be all about power but with very little defence. Someone could switch between the three styles to suit the situation.





Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

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