Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Brawler correspondant not acting in a professional manner....
Great. But that post was not made in the thread in which we are reffering...and you did not use it as a link or otherwise, nor make mention of it in the thread in question. You made it clear..but not to the readers of the thread where your statements where unexcusably biased, and leaning in favor of what the post was about..That being TKA are overpowered. though you never say those words....its all the words and examples that you use, and the blatant boasting, that say it for you.
StGabriel wrote:
My post where I mention solo'ing:
Yes, but it just got yanked.
It was too much. It's a good thing it didn't hit live because, as much as I enjoyed having all that power (I solo'ed giant kimos and juvenile krayts without buffs, both having been bumped to 50k HAM's this patch), there's no way it could have been left in as it was.
I am glad they are thinking about HAM usage and are trying out things. This attempt was too much however. They're on the right track though and hopefully we'll see some other changes soon.
I feel I made the context very clear. =)
StGabe.
I solo'ed a giant kimo and a juvenile krayt dragon (both with the new 50k HAMs) under the following conditions:
-- I was using the new combat system on Test which was a bit overpowered itself and has been yanked. I believe that I made this very clear. If that is not the case then consider it clear now.
-- I was wearing 57% kinetic ubese armor, all but the gloves (had made a mistake migrating my stats)
-- I used tattooine sunburns and no other buffs, TC has few docs and fewer chefs
-- I used no pets
-- I made a heavy use of several TKA skills along with Warcry2
-- I also used novice medic skills
-- Every single bit of damage was dealt by my vibroknucklers, no bleeds, no kiting, no feigning
-- I was not incap'ed during the whole fight
-- I didn't land dizzy during the fight, I didn't try to
I suspect that with better armor and/or better chef items I could easily repeat this feat without the combat system changes (although of course this is hard to gauge).
StGabe.
As a brawler correspondent I would hope that while my job would be to advocate for the brawler profession I would also be allowed the freedom to disperse information regarding other changes.
For example I provided detailed charts regarding the changes to the brawler trees on TC last patch, you might remember seeing them. I also provided a lot of information regarding the changes to crafting last patch (the one that got yanked before hitting live). I have provided plenty of information and perspective regarding the the new HAM system that was put on to TC.
Should I not be doing these things simply because it is not my job? Should I only provide information that a certain group says is ok for me to talk about?
StGabe.
StGabriel wrote:
-- I made a heavy use of several TKA skills along with Warcry2
Warycry 1 and Warcry 2 stack. With some BioEngineered clothing so that Warcries stick nearly every time. Master Brawler + AlmostAnything can solo Giant Kimos.
i read the first post that gabe made on page 6 (thanks to the link!) and i have to say that i did not find him to be nerf-calling by any means. i do believe that on a raw damage basis, we are more powerful than fencers, swordies, and pikes. i mean, how fast can you spam uh3? how fast can a master fencer spam 1hand hit 3? not nearly as fast. that's not nerf-herding, that's a fact.
people call TK ''the bh of melee'' for a good reason, after all.
don't let the babies get you down gabe. some people believe that TK should be able to kill pc jedi masters in 1 on 1 combat because of what some fanfiction website said. these are the same people that pitch a fit every time someone discusses TK in a manner other than ''omgzzorz!!!!!!111[whatever]is nerfffed to hell and suxxorr!!!'' or ''what the f???!! why can't tkm kill fencer 100% of the time anymore?????''
god forbid anyone should want all 4 melee professions to be brought in line with each other.
Brawler Correspondent's job is to communicate with theBrawler community and gather information about their concerns so that it may be presented in an orderly fashion to the Developers.
This is not to say that you are not entitled to an opinion concerning other classes. But what you must be aware of is that being a Correspondent, your words carry much more weight. If there is a discussion going on about whether Teras Kasi are overpowered or not, please leave it to the Teras Kasi Correspondent, that's what he's there for.
I do apologize for this..as the statementWAS made in the same thread... although it was in responce to a specific question, not entirely related to the threads topic.
JarellSecura wrote:
Great. But that post was not made in the thread in which we are reffering...and you did not use it as a link or otherwise, nor make mention of it in the thread in question. You made it clear..but not to the readers of the thread where your statements where unexcusably biased, and leaning in favor of what the post was about..That being TKA are overpowered. though you never say those words....its all the words and examples that you use, and the blatant boasting, that say it for you.
StGabriel wrote:
My post where I mention solo'ing:
Yes, but it just got yanked.
It was too much. It's a good thing it didn't hit live because, as much as I enjoyed having all that power (I solo'ed giant kimos and juvenile krayts without buffs, both having been bumped to 50k HAM's this patch), there's no way it could have been left in as it was.
I am glad they are thinking about HAM usage and are trying out things. This attempt was too much however. They're on the right track though and hopefully we'll see some other changes soon.
I feel I made the context very clear. =)
StGabe.
To StGabriel:
Your test data should have stayed in the test center forum or corespondant forum, not be brought into a discussion of live server professions. You show us that a tka with master brawler can take down high level creatures solo on the test center with a combat system that doesn't even exist anymore. What isn't shown is what other melee or ranged professions with master brawler can do against the same creatures and under the same combat system.
For all we know, a tka with master brawler is equally powerful as other melee/ranged with master brawlerunder that system. What in your testing told you it was tka that was too powerful and not master brawler, with the 20 second delay of warcry2 or other master brawler perks?
Where is the evidence that other combat professions couldn't solo those creatures under the same conditions?
This is news to me. Grouped with a TKA that did not have master brawler I get the "your delay was resisted" all the time. I was only using warcry2 and not trying to stack warcry1.
I will have to investigate this.
StGabe.
Mynroe wrote:
i read the first post that gabe made on page 6 (thanks to the link!) and i have to say that i did not find him to be nerf-calling by any means. i do believe that on a raw damage basis, we are more powerful than fencers, swordies, and pikes. i mean, how fast can you spam uh3? how fast can a master fencer spam 1hand hit 3? not nearly as fast. that's not nerf-herding, that's a fact.
people call TK ''the bh of melee'' for a good reason, after all.
don't let the babies get you down gabe. some people believe that TK should be able to kill pc jedi masters in 1 on 1 combat because of what some fanfiction website said. these are the same people that pitch a fit every time someone discusses TK in a manner other than ''omgzzorz!!!!!!111[whatever]is nerfffed to hell and suxxorr!!!'' or ''what the f???!! why can't tkm kill fencer 100% of the time anymore?????''
god forbid anyone should want all 4 melee professions to be brought in line with each other.
Let me clarify this: Never was Gabes concerns made out to be invalid or unmerrited. The Problem was with the thread he chose to voice these in. Where a correspondant is supposed to gather info and put it into a well thought and constructed format, this paticular responce, as well as the subsequent ones, were not orderly, nor were they entirely accurate. He did from the last post in this thread breakdwon what his method for defeating the Krayt were, and the pertinant skills used...and that, is what I would have expected from the beggining. his statements were very misleading..as they made him appear to be advocating a "change" to our profession based on "percieved" overpower by those who may not be familiar with the class itself..as he is.
Thats where the mistake was made, and has not changed.: below are all his comments in the thread.
So the combat system works good at high levels? I was never able to test it with anything but my newbie TC character and it seemed like it was going to work good at a higher level and would make it easier. Thats good news
Yes, but it just got yanked.
It was too much. It's a good thing it didn't hit live because, as much as I enjoyed having all that power (I solo'ed giant kimos and juvenile krayts without buffs, both having been bumped to 50k HAM's this patch), there's no way it could have been left in as it was.
I am glad they are thinking about HAM usage and are trying out things. This attempt was too much however. They're on the right track though and hopefully we'll see some other changes soon.
StGabe.
this over power crap is silly... so basicly i am to believe that as a novice tka with a pair of vk's currently my servers best is like 180 damage sliced.. i can hit somewhere in the 300's per successful blow right? hmmm?
It is stacking the damage bonus on top of this that makes it very powerful.
A good sliced VK isn't a 50-190 damage weapon. It is more like 300-440 damage weapon with very low HAM's and very fast speed.
StGabe.
Kiting is a very real issue, and one that should be dealt with.
However I don't think that it excuses any other excesses that TKA's might have. Whereas PvP is an important part of this game, PvE is at least as important. If TKA's are quite overpowered for many PvE encounters then we can't just say, "yeah, but in PvP you can kite them" and expect it to be relevant. The same goes for only kinetic damage. This is a limitation on TKA's certainly, but it isn't a large enough one to mitigate any other overpowering the class might have.
Note I'm not taking a stand here, I'm simply trying to provide a bit of perspective on the issue.
Also I really don't know what to say about "out of range" except to say that after the last patch it is very rare that I see this at all.
StGabe.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 12-01-2003 08:53 PM
I am genuinely dissappointed to see the brawler correspondent's oversimplistic post.
I was not attempting to capture all elements regarding TKA's at once. I was attemping to set the record straight specifically on TKA damage and on a few other things.
I do play a TKA. You mention an awful lot of variables that would be interesting to delve into if I had a few hours, which I don't. In short: when I solo the new upgraded giant kimos and juvenile krayts (with 50k HAMs), using armor that isn't that great (57% kinetic) and only only tattooine sunburns for buffs, I realize that not every variable has to be accounted for to realize that there may be some balance issues here.
When I can kill a mob worth 5k experience in 18 seconds or less (huurton stalkers), and then turn around and do this again, and again, I realize again that not every variable has to be considered to realize that maybe there is a slight problem. I did the last 1/3rd of TKA in just over 5 hours. Is this in line with expectations? I have to suspect that it is not.
When I notice that the per-hit damage of VK's are the second best among all melee weapons, and are only outdone by a weapon that is much slower (although yes, it is AP2), I wonder if this is intended. I did consider slicing for that comparison and I left out all considerations of VK enhancements.
You mention that perhaps TKA's have a few weaknesses. Yes, I acknowledged them and my comment was: if TKA's are overpowered in other situations then this isn't really relevant. The fact that ranged can kite a TKA in PvP does not mean that TKA's should be overpowered in PvE. TKA's are very powerful in a lot of situations and their weaknesses are few. Especially compared to well, every other melee profession. As I said: maybe this doesn't mean that TKA's are overpowered (but rather that other melee classes are overpowered), that's for the dev's to decide. But they are VERY powerful and let's not lose sight of that.
You didn't mention that on top of their damage, they also have by far the highest melee toughness in the game (62 with master brawler means that I take 2.6 times less damage than someone without toughness, even before considering armor, damage mitigation, etc.). They have very low HAM weapons compared to other classes AND the option of going bare-handed (where their average damage is still 160% of that of the best fencer weapon, which is only AP0 by the way). They are the only melee class to have their own utility line (meditation) and it is VERY useful. They get a powerful KD/dizzy special, and other very useful status effects.
TKA's are very powerful. I'm not going to call them overpowered, but I think that a lot of the denial in this thread is really, really, really, stretching.
Saying: "oh yeah, but if I go out into the boonies on planet X I can find a creature that I can't hurt" does not defuse this claim.
StGabe.
How exactly is a TKA supposed to single pull a mob? What is he or she supposed to do when they all pile on him?
For what it's worth, at 2 boxes into TKA I was able to solo 3 pikets or an even greater number of Huurtons at once on Dantooine, netting 4-5k xps each.
If the TKA is taking the aggo, and other mobs spawn, who are they going after? Him. Not the ranged weapon user 40m away unless he fires prematurely.
And the TKA is very well prepared for this.
Who is getting the exp shooting when the TKA is running around trying to catch a mob that is in motion? Not the TKA.
As a TKA in groups it was my experience that I would often stop using specials or fighting altogether because I felt guilty for hogging all of the experience.
The rest of the stuff . . . I mean c'mon. You're upset that you don't get a warning shot ability when you get warcry, stun, dizzy/kd, and intimidate???
It's your job to get in the creature's face and you do it incredibly well.
A lot of these comments are restrictions that almost all players face.
Again, there is a lot to take into consideration.
Indeed, but that doesn't mean that TKA's aren't overpowered in many contexts. Finding a few limitations here and there doesn't negate situations where a TKA seems to be surpassing the intended limitations for a character.
StGabe.
You lost all credability with me right there. Let's see the screenshots.
Dead giant kimo.
I don't have a screenshot of any of the krayts unfortunately. Well I have one where a marksman and a BE helped me kill the krayt but I assume that you won't count this. Would it really help you out if I were to go solo one again and get a screenshot? I can do this.
But actually, all you need to do is ask around on my server (Test Center) and you can have my solos and the new stats confirmed. I had several people witness both solos. Get on the TCPA chat channel and ask. Or, actually, you can just watch me if you like. We just had the new HAM change washed away and so that won't even conflict the results. My characters are named Gaffyn and Flynn.
Look, I'm just trying to maintain an honest discussion here. My main is a TKA and will be hurt by any nerfs that occur. Some people seem to be implying that it should be my job not to say anything that might hurt TKA's. Well frankly I don't see honest discussion as likely to hurt them. If they need a nerf it will happen eventually, better sooner than later. It is best to have all the facts out on the table and to avoid all of this nonsense evasions. TKA's are very powerful in many situations, let's not deny that. As I have said many times, whether this is too powerful or not is not really my nor your judgement. I would disagree with the original poster about his topic title because I don't think he can be sure as to what level of power is intended, but I think in his post he is careful to compare TKA's to other melee classes and there he is probably correct.
StGabe.
If you cannot find the time to do it properly, then don't do it. As a correspondent, you enjoy the perception of enhanced awareness and knowledge. If you are unprepared to substantiate your conclusions beyond the typical player here, then it's best you stay out of it.
I have provided a lot of accurate and high relevant data here. I have provided substantiation above most of the posters here. I'm not sure that anyone is really equipped at this moment to balance all possible variables in the SWG engine and give an absolute judgement from this. More importantly, I do not think that this is necessary before making judgements about a professions capabilities in a lot or even the majority of situations.
If we were to subscribe to the idea that no judgements could be made without complete understanding of every possible game dynamic then I think that balancing a game such as this would be very nearly impossible. Fortunately this is not the case.
StGabe.
What a hoot. I can stand in front of any dead thing and take a screenshot. Where is the battle spam? Where is the group indicator? Where is the target?
I offered to give a demonstration and told you where to ask for corroboration, what more do you want? =)
I'm not 100% sure I can pull this off anymore now that some things have been tweaked on TC, but I can give it a very convincing effort. If I can't now I certainly could if there were better armor or better chef items available on TC.
Come on down and I'll give you a demonstration and then you can come back here and talk all about it.
StGabe.
What a hoot. I can stand in front of any dead thing and take a screenshot. Where is the battle spam? Where is the group indicator? Where is the target?
I offered to give a demonstration and told you where to ask for corroboration, what more do you want? =)
I'm not 100% sure I can pull this off anymore now that some things have been tweaked on TC, but I can give it a very convincing effort. If I can't now I certainly could if there were better armor or better chef items available on TC.
Come on down and I'll give you a demonstration and then you can come back here and talk all about it.
StGabe.
Now...if you read all that...someone tell me at what point, was this anyhting but fuel to add to a thread that was already asking for the TKA class to be changed?
Please do, it appears as though there are conflicting reports concerning this. Warcry 2 though, is most definitely not a TKM skill. For a correspondent to jump in a nerf-TKA thread and expound on how powerful TKA is without noting the use of Master Brawler skills is irresponsible at best. If you were truly concerned about melee skills, you'd be working on getting Pike up to the rest of the melee.
StGabriel wrote:
This is news to me. Grouped with a TKA that did not have master brawler I get the "your delay was resisted" all the time. I was only using warcry2 and not trying to stack warcry1.
Tabcef wrote:
speaking of the tka corrosopndent, where is he? i haven't seen him on the boards lately
Mister_Heavy - 8 posts today. 14 posts yesterday.