Teras Kasi Archive

I'll have to see this in action. The melee multiplier was killing commando's in combat against mods, but will removing it make them over powered in PvP? I really don't think so. If a commando hits me with a flame single before I KD him I salute him on his accuracy mod. XD

Their new mitigation mods ARE an issue though. Seem that they'll have no real weakness now. They can hit from range and take very little damage if we do hit them.

It probably would have been better to give commando's both melee and ranged mitigation, but gut the % of damage reduced in half for each. Commando's should be tougher in melee combat than rifle/pistol/carbineers, but not as tough as tka/fencer/swordie/pikemen.

I was thinking the bonus to hit was a damage bonus, not accuracy similar to the creature-to-hit modifier that scouts/rangers get.

didnt hear anything about a dmg bonus, to hit means accuracy, but maybe im way off.

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Valkari-TKM wrote:

Can you check with the devs to see if they ever thought about the impact perhaps of how mitigation is gonig to nerf us in PVP? I understand that it made us better tanks in pvenviorment, but what about PVP? most or atleast me play this game for pvp.

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I'm glad you put in that lukewarm qualifier. I play this game for PvE and could give a *edit* about PvP.

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Mister_Heavy wrote:

Well, I have to do a bit of homework on this first. I was under the impression that while melee damage mitigation from TKA would not stack with, for example, swordsman melee damage mitigation, it would stack with pistoleer mitigation, or any other damage mitigation from a ranged class. So you could have both ranged and melee mitigation, just not double range, or double melee.

I also need to find out if mitigation is only active when you're holding the proper type of weapon. Personally I doubt it, but I want to find out for sure. I can test this out on TC easily enough.

Would that address your concerns? All melee classes get melee mitigation, pure ranged classes get ranged mitigation. If you want both, just take a profession in each category.

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SoE comented on this and said that" all mitigations will not stack" perhaps they are mistaken

Also i dont really see how it could go off the weapon you are holding either, i suspect that its much broader, based on styles etc.

perhaps that when you use a special, that damage that is sent from you to the target is mitigated as range or melee. This would mean that any none style hits would not have the change to be mitigated.

but if you put it on the aucutal weapon itself, then how can you even tell a bounty hunter is a bounty hunter then for example (who gets ranged mitigation)

and no my concern is not if they stack....i know they do not.

i know if i want ranged mitigation, i need to have pistoleer, and have out a pistol. I can not enjoy having ranged mitigation with vKs on and having pistol skill, because SoE has already addressed this in their patch notes.

My concern however is that the complete lack of any benfit in pvp for the TKA, Swordsman, pikemen, and fencer.

from my orginal post you can see clearly that our mitigation never puts us in a situation were we will have it, and someone else will not.

The best case senario is simply never having mitigation, and or fighting another melee person, were we both have it.

Im also under the impression that Bounty hunters are very upset with this new change, as that leaves them vulnerable to pistoleers, rifflemen, and carbineers.

so you can narrow down my concern to this.

not template specific, and if we CAN get ranged or not, but simply stated.

1) melee personal using melee styles....why is it we do not have an advantage vs even one type of dmg user in the game with mitigation, when hybrids and ranged who already have a clear advantage with range issues in PVP do.

2) coamndos are losing their 2.5x melee penitly, because i asume that the DEVS are thinking that with mitigation for melee, we can compete more. perhaps devs still think that comandso are doing melee dmg with their flame throwers, because not only will our toughness no longer cover the damage, and not only will our mitigation not cover the damage, but they are losing their one weakness, plus they are receiving a buff vs us...in the terms of melee mitigation.

now i know mr. heavy you are a comando too, but im sure you can apreciate my concern.

I'd like to take a second here to clarify a bit on how damage mitigation works, and why it's good for TKAs. Mitigation reduces the range of damage, not the total damage done. Only the variable component of the damage is effected. This is an extremely important distinction. For example, take the following two weapons:

Weapon 1

Dmg: 1-500

Weapon 2

Dmg 240-260

Under normal circumstances, these two weapons would do the same damage on average. However, if you mitigate the damage range by 50% you get the following

Weapon 1

Dmg: 1-250

Weapon 2

Dmg 240-250

In both cases, the variable component of thedamge has been cut in half. However, the weapon with the tighter range suffers much less. This is good for TKAs because of our base damage. Fists alone, we do what, 260-270 or so base damage for a non-trando? If someone has 60% melee damage mitigation we'll do 260-266. No big deal. Add VKs on to this and we take a bigger hit as a VK might be 50-200 (range of 150), and a 60% mitigation would take that to 50-110 (range of 60).

Just one more reason to consider taking off the VKs for PvP.

Something to think about

im failing to see how that helps us, maybe im dense, but im seriously failing to see why this is going to be good for us.

1) take off our knucklers and get a 50% reduction in damage

2) use the knucklers mine are around 50-212, and with mitigation they get turned into 142 max knucklers. about the same as unslcied VKs, and aproximate 40% damage reduction over all if you are looking at the multipliers in UH3

in either case.....we will be nerfed damage wise wont we? so hows that good?

and we are going to be nerfed when hitting the two biggiest guns in the galaxy (bounty hunters and comandos)

THATS EVEN WORSE.

again my concerns are as follows.

1) why did melee people using melee weapons not get any type of advantage vs any type of other person in the game what so ever, when all we get out of this is one big fat disadvantage

2) why was comandos 2.5x melee penelty removed, then giving a buff vs us? shall we not forget when they used to do melee dmg, and our toughness used to help cover this? this is in total in less then 2 months THREE MAJOR nerfs to us vs the comando. and pvp

ok those are my concerns please feel free to keep the debate going, im always very interested in what you have to say mr. heavy.

Hmm, we're going to suck unless we can fight unarmoured opponents in pvp.

of course everyone fights naked now because of the damage to weapon value so we win in all rspects!

We're not getting our damage halved by any stretch of the imagination (we have a very large minimum damage armed or unarmed. VK stats get our +damage mod anyway). Even if they had 100% range mitigation, so we always hit for our minimum, we'd be in pretty good shape, considering the same would be turned around for them (and in most cases, ranged weapons have a MUCH lower minimum, and a MUCH wider damage range).

I counsel try it and see what happens.
I also seem to remember this only applying to NPCs, so I'm not real sure it will have ANY effect in PvP. At any rate, I'm not going to react (or overreact) until I see the effects, and see how it pans out.

I like the thought of only getting hit for part of the large damage range on others' weapons, myself.

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Valkari-TKM wrote:

im failing to see how that helps us, maybe im dense, but im seriously failing to see why this is going to be good for us.

1) take off our knucklers and get a 50% reduction in damage

2) use the knucklers mine are around 50-212, and with mitigation they get turned into 142 max knucklers. about the same as unslcied VKs, and aproximate 40% damage reduction over all if you are looking at the multipliers in UH3

in either case.....we will be nerfed damage wise wont we? so hows that good?

Yes, it's a damage reduction, but not as much of a damage reduction as some other classes with a larger damage ragnge are getting.

and we are going to be nerfed when hitting the two biggiest guns in the galaxy (bounty hunters and comandos)

THATS EVEN WORSE.

again my concerns are as follows.

1) why did melee people using melee weapons not get any type of advantage vs any type of other person in the game what so ever, when all we get out of this is one big fat disadvantage

First of all, you can't look at this game through strictly PvP-colored glasses. Melee damage mitigation is a huge advantage in PvE.

My question to you is why should we get an advantage over anyone else in the game?Melee gets melee mitigation, ranged gets ranged mitigation. Except for the hybrid professions (which are always different) it's even.

I'm not 100% sure why commandos & BHs got melee mitigation. I'm sure they'd rather have ranged.It would be better for us if they had ranged mitigation, but also better for them, making them more powerful overall in PvP. I don't know for sure, but that's probably why the devs did it that way.

Finally, I don't think this mitigation thing will hit us too hard. Using 50-200 knucklers on top of the 260-280 base gives you a base damage of 310-480 (395 average) The vast majority of BHs and commandos are dabblers, so let's assume 40% mitigation. This changes your base damage to 310-405 (357 average). This is a 10% reduction. 10%. It's not going to drastically impact your ability to kill these people.

2) why was comandos 2.5x melee penelty removed, then giving a buff vs us? shall we not forget when they used to do melee dmg, and our toughness used to help cover this? this is in total in less then 2 months THREE MAJOR nerfs to us vs the comando. and pvp

The 2.5 damage multiplier was removed fromCommando and riflemanbecause it was seen as unbalancing. Again, it's not just PvP we're talking here. Especially after the Death and Decay changes, PvE is the primary mode of gameplay in this game.

Also, do we really need a damage multiplier to kill anyone once we get in range?

ok those are my concerns please feel free to keep the debate going, im always very interested in what you have to say mr. heavy.

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The reason BH/commando was given melee mitigation is because the specials for commando and the LLc specials for BH are 16m ranged shots.In my opinion that is why they wee given melee mitigation.

[b]On BH/Commando melee mitigation[/b]

Another way to look at the commando/BH melee mitigation is this:

1) From the Commando side, commandos most reliable attacks are already limited to short-range. I've believed for a while that commandos really ought to be anti-melee types because of this constraint. Having the rifle damage multiplier applied to them, well, really messed things up for PvE. For PvP, I can't really say, since I spend most of my time in PvE. If commandos did *not* get melee mitigation, you'd see pretty much every commando in existence getting expert balance conditioning for melee mitigation level 2--just 17 skill points for that. And while I'm a big fan of cross-training like this, well, I think it would be kind of sad to have *every* commando also be a teras kasi artist. A commando can also cross-train to get ranged mitigation level 2 with just 17 skill points, which may be a bit cheap, but I'm willing to live with that since they do have to get master marksman. To get both melee mitigation 3 and ranged mitigation 3, a commando will need to master a ranged profession along with commando, leaving 18 skill points left over for other uses.

2) Bounty hunters would be in an awful spot if they had to cross-train in an advanced melee profession to get melee mitigation. Why? Because a master bounty hunter doesn't have enough skill points to even get novice in such a profession. Again, the fact that they can cross-train in any single advanced ranged profession for 17 skill points for ranged mitigation 2 is a little low, but here you have to consider that once a master bounty hunter does that, they only have 15 skill points to spend on anything else. So a master BH will be forced to choose between having reasonable healing abilities and ranged mitigation, but not both. Master BH with ranged mitigation 2 and novice medic (stim Bs with no increase in healing amounts from skill) is possible, but a master BH just won't have the points to spend to get any ranged mitigation alongside the ability to use stim Cs. And it's completely impossible for a BH to get both ranged and melee mitigation 3, the best that they can do is level 2 in one and level 3 in the other, no matter how much of the BH skills they give up.

Of course, there's no requirement that a commando or BH go all the way to master to get some of the nice features, but also remember that you *must* have master to get mitigation level 3. So commandos and bounty hunters end up being pretty tightly constrained if they want to have really good damage mitigation.

Base ranged and melee professions, on the other hand, are pretty wide open. If a player chooses to cross-train and *master* both a single ranged and a single melee profession, they get level 3 of both types of mitigation, and have *66* skill points left over to spend on other things. That's not quite enough to master another basic profession, but it is enough to master marksman or master brawler or to dabble quite effectively in other professions. (The most likely dabbling profession, CH, they would only be able to get up a single skill line, which means level 24 pets in the new scheme.)

[b]Worries about only decreasing the damage range[/b]

All in all, I like this new system, although if Mister_Heavy's description of it is correct (it only reduces the size of the damage range and leaves the lower bound untouched), I like it less. Why? Because I think it makes it less powerful and less of an attraction. If getting master in a ranged profession means you'll take 60% less ranged damage over all, that's a huge draw. If it means you take a variable amount less than the max, that's weaker, and I don't know if it will encourage people to spend points to cross-train for mitigation instead of other things like medic or creature handler. On the plus side, it would mean that weapon upgrades that increase the minimum damage done are more interesting, but on the minus side it means you have to pay attention to the size of the damage range when picking your opponents.

In fact, if it's only the upper range that gets changed, this is bad for melee professions who like hunting creatures. Why? Because pretty much every creature I've looked at has a damage output like "390-400" or "270-280". That second one is a huurton huntress, which is one of my favorite target animals right now... So the huurton huntress normally averages 275 damage, and will do 270-276 damage if I have melee mitigation 2, or an average of 273 damage--reducing the amount of damage I take by less than 1%. Unless creature damage ranges have been expanded greatly, so that a huurton huntress has a range like 180-280 or something, this is *very* unsatisfactory. I've been hoping that with the level and power adjustments, combined with melee mitigation for melee professions, we'll be in a much better position to stand up and take hits for our groupmates. But if mitigation is only going to make a 1% difference with CL 27 creatures, and will be less and less effective for higher and higher level creatures (since they all seem to have this 10 point range), well... that's not going to help very much.

So, in summary: it's not a horrible thing to have BHs and commandos have melee mitigation, and it's not at all helpful against creatures if mitigation only applies to the size of the damage range and not to damage over-all.