Teras Kasi Archive

I have noticed that TKA 0/1/0/0 with 6k Battle armor cert can tank just as well as a TKM. If not better if the armor is sliced.

Species: Zabrak
Template: TKM, Master Swordsman, Master Brawler, Pikeman 0/4/4/3
Armor Type: TIA

I really enjoy my tanking abilities (save for one thing, listed below). The innate armor is good (could be a touch better), and Center of Being is just fantastic (though I would like to see it moved up the TKA tree a bit to avoid minor dabblers getting the full benefit of that great ability, but I digress).

I do NOT like the fact that as a tank, our taunt doesn't work all that great, and we have no area attack to keep those mobs interested in us and not the ranged weenies. Heck, I don't even think we have an area taunt! (I DO have one, but I can't remember where I gained it from right now.. maybe I picked it up in the Swordsman tree, which doesn't seem like the right place for it). I have no problem with the minimal damage output, I just want to keep those mobs interested in ME so the ranged guys can pick them apart.

All in all, I am quite pleased with our tanking ability. Give us an effective Area Taunt (if it's not already there, again can't recall if it is) and Area Attack, and I think we're in business.

EDIT: AH, someone brought up a GREAT point, at Master level TKA, CoB should be able to fire WHILE MOVING. Too many times I have to chase after a mob that's slipped through, and can't fire CoB because I'm running. Also VERY frustrating trying to take down kiters and not being able to keep CoB on. That may make us a touch more viable in PvP. =]

***EDIT x2: Another great point made by XrioT, and one that has bothered me quite a lot is about the breaking of our Innate Armor. There are no mitigation modifiers for us, so when someone uses armor break on us and it lands, we're toast. Not good for a tank:

XrioT - One thing with respect to tanking that is bothersome though is that armor break makes a very significant difference when used on us; Armor wearing classes can at least have armor sliced for armor break resistance now that the new slicing mechanism is implemented, but we have no such option. Does armor break really make sense functionally against a person that doesn't wear armor anyway? I would vote to remove its effects when used on TKM's, or to give us an armor break reduction modifier in one of the skill branches.

Message Edited by GalacticBulge on 07-12-2005 12:19 PM

Species: Zabrak
Template: TKM, Novice Swords, some medic (in the middle of regrinding from a totally ranged prof)
Armor: Innate TKA

I am very impressed by TKA's ability to take punishment, but also quite unimpressed by the relatively poor abilities TKA has to hold aggro. I've been doing group grinding exclusively for the last couple days, and trying to really get the feel for TKA instead of just powergrinding through it (I'm an old-time TKM who is just coming back to it for the first time since CU). The innate armor and improved COB are godsends, and really allow me to stand toe to toe with lotsa baddies and live to tell the tale. Awesome. But its very rare that I can keep those baddies off the rest of my group, due to the relatively poor performance of the Taunt and Taunt Bonus.

- The cooldowns on the Taunts are so long that the mob usually peels off me before I can throw another one.
- The effect of Taunting, even with the bonus, is too easily overcome by the other hate-generating actions (heals, damage).
- If TKA is supposed to be the premiere tank, and Swordsman is supposed to be the premiere melee single target damage dealer, then why does Swords get area taunt and TKA get taunt bonus? Seems to me like that one is sorta backwards.

Species- Human

Armor- Innate

Template- TKM, Master Doc, Master Brawler

I agree with much of what was said. My template can take a ton of punishment. CoB and improved bacta infusion along with the occasion bacta shot when necessary make me a pretty absorbant damage sponge. Problem is holding the aggro especially against group mobs.

Taunt needs to last longer at least 5-10 more seconds. An area of effect attack would be nice to gain the initial attention of a group mob. Or even better, an area of effect taunt.

Species - Human

Template - I don't do "templates." But my character is Master TK/Master Sword, and some medic (4040 right now I believe).

Armor - None (the clothes on her back)

Bio-clothes -- She has two +16 BE'ed melee/ranged defense articles (pants and shirt). As far as I can tell (from the ctrl-C numbers) both of these have full effect (i.e. if I take them both off, my defense will drop by 32).

Tanking seems to work well from the perspective of hanging in there against powerful foes, as long as I don't forget to re-up COB. I can solo 3 yellow cons of most things without dying, though I will have to heal repeatedly with bacta shot to do that. With two + COB, I won't need to heal. In fact to get healing XP against 1 or 2 yellows I have to keep COB turned off so I can actually take some damage, LOL. Most definitely I last longer than other people, especially now that I have some medic skills (started it mostly to see how it works now, and finding I really like healing myself and others).

The MAIN problem is holding aggro. Even with a powerhammer out, it is very hard to hold aggro against targets when a BH or someone is shooting them. I do not do enough damage so I have to keep taunting. Yet taunt, at least TKA taunt, sucks rocks and doesn't seem to work AT ALL. Area taunt (the swordsman skill) does seem to work OK, but I think that may be an artifact -- Usually the whole group is concentrating fire on one target, so if I area taunt, the other targets will attack me because no one has hit them yet. I find I can pull more aggro by healing my buddies than either taunt form... This kind of works, in the sense that if I heal them they are taking damage, and I am not, and if that pulls aggro to me, I both heal them and pull the mob off of them...

BUT...

That makes it very hard to tank with ranged friends in the distance, because I have to keep running up to them (to heal). The normal tank role of holding the mobs at bay at the lair location, while the rifleman or BH is 50 meters away firing at them, does not work at all -- at least, I have never been able to make it work, with any combo of taunt, area taunt (which isn't even one of our skills) or damage.

And that makes tanking very difficult. It works OK when the rifelman successfully single-pulls, but if he over-pulls and 4 things come at him, he's dead, and I can't stop it no matter what I do.

EDIT: the other problem is the COB-moving thing. If a mob breaks away and goes after the rifleman or something, and just then COB drops, I have to STAND THERE watching it kill my friend, while COB fires, because if I dare move, my defenses drop and now it kills him AND me.... I feel like a heel to just STAND THERE while my friend is being pummeled but COB forces me to.

C

Message Edited by Chessack on 07-12-2005 01:00 PM

Spiecies: Dosh

Template (was): TKM\MHS\0040 Pike\Combat Reflexes 4400\Combat Prowess 4404

Armor: TIA + CoB

As a PvE tanker at the MO on Dant with CoB running I regularly would tank 4-6 longhorn pickets using area taunt and taunt while my group mates killed the pickets. It was rare that aggro left me for more then a few seconds as long as I was paying attention to what the pickets were attacking.

Thanks for asking and actually reading!!!!! It's greatly appreciated.

Species: Wookie
Template: MTK/MDoc/Pike 0400/Force Melee Speed 4 boxes
Armour type you were using (Battle, Assault, Recon, TIA, JIA): Innate armor. Clothing is mostly Doctor related and no real Clothing Attachments to speak of.

I'll repeat what some have already said and add a couple thoughts:

• MTK should be the Master Tank - hard to tank multiple mobs when they run after your rifleman 40 meters away so we really need an Area Taunt to hold Aggro.


• CoB shouldn't be so low in the box area or maybe a lower boost in defense and add a higher level CoB


• CoB should have a higher level box that does not require standing still to effect or make the effect longer (both accomplish the same thing since if you can CoB while moving we'll just macro it)


• I find that with CoB running and healing I can handle up to 4-6 or so Level 79-82mobs (depending on their Health and damage output) at a time for a stretch with help or 3 alone. Things like the web weavers on Kashyyyk only 2 at a time.


• Major Mobs like Grievous - I'mpretty useless as MTK and only useful as MDoc


• I tend to use Blob Candy, Crispix and Kanali Wafers and Vasarian Brandy at times


• I am perfectly fine with our damage output - IF we got Area Taunt and "don't have to move" COB


• I think an area attack would be nice so we don't have to rely on having another melee profession to be able to do OUR job but that's secondary


• While I believe Master Jedi should be more powerful than Master Non-Jedi - compare what a Master Defender can do with multiple mobs vs. a Master TK (Master non-Jedi tank). It's not even close so either they are too powerful or we are too weak. They can hold aggro and defend without dying with 10 or more Level 80 mobs long enough for their group to wrack up the kills. Just watch one spam the lair and let the group kill off the ~30 or so mobs that come out in a 3 minute period - it's awesome but I can't do anything like that and should be able to at least come close(er).

Love my template and have fun but we really aren't a Level 5 Tank as MTK. We can take more damage than some but a person with enough TK for CoB and Master Sword/Pike/Fencer and good armor can tank better than a Master TK with some Doc/Sword/Pike etc. since they can deal more damage, hold aggro and still get all the defensive abilities. That doesn't make sense. MTK should be able to tank better than any other class/combination that doesn't include MTK in the template regardless of whether you choose Sword/Doc/BH or whatever as your complimentary profession.

Shadow'd - Naritus

I'm a human, TKM/Doc4004/Swords1444, I use TIA only. I have some healing efficiency (+18 I think) clothing and I usually fight with a 110 med droid out for improved healing. Improved CoB on at all times fighting, of course.

I'll pile on to what others have said here. Once I get aggro the combination of TKM and the healing from Doc4000 is great. If I'm in a group and all I have to focus on is healing myself, I can pretty much stand there indefinitely.

"Once I get aggro" is the key though. I have not had good success with Taunt from the TKM line and when there are high damage dealers in the group it is hard to hold aggro with just that. Very slow cooldown timer and it doesn't always stick. Area Taunt from Swords works much better as did Bacta Spray pre-Pub 19 (which I don't have any more, but I did) even at Medic.

I'd like to see the TK Taunt work better and the cooldown timer for both Taunts shortenend. That would definitely fix it for me. If I had to pick better Taunt or shorter timer, I'd choose the shorter timer.

Race Twi'lek (Nice dodging)

Template: MTKA - MPikeman - Doc4000 - FSmele speed 4 boxes completed....

Armor Innate - and 2 Cyvernetic arms... 5% shock posibility (Right arm)- Meleoverload (Left arm)

This template add all the power and group combat of the Pike + the Armor and Power boost of the TKA...with those template is really har to get killed, If you are fully buffed, with all the food you can have and some Stimpacks, No reanged (anyone)or Mele without doc can kill you, there is no way they could kill you... Yust so you know, with this template, I can take a Great krayt Dragon (lvl86) by myself and I havent tryed on a grand but I'm pretty sure I could take one of those too.

The Only problem is that If you Use Unarmed Combat, you loose to much mind with your attack making your doc skills pertty much useles, and If you decide to use Pikes, after the Combat Upgrade there is no UBER pikes, the max you could get is 950 (post combat Upgrade) if you could get a polearm wit Max power 1100+ and low sac, you could be so powerfull.. but until SOE add's soem nice pikes we have to get used to fight with what we have...

Also the cyvenetic arms are of huge help concerning extra damage...

I hope this is usefull for someone

tx

Message Edited by Sirfabius on 07-14-2005 03:59 AM

Species: Human

Template: TKM/Master Swordsman/Doc 4000

Armor: TIA

Tanking from being a TKM is beyond comparison, in regards to non-jedi defender tanking. We are the best, but if we could receive a few things it could amplify our abilities and only a few problems I have with Tanking. I can tank just about anything one on one, I have taken down, the Katarn, the Gorax, Ancient Krayt Dragon, Super Battle Droids in the DWB, Daktar Bloodmoon CL 100, and came close to taking necrosis down (this one with some help from friends), and Single Handedly Took down the Maurader Stronghold on Endor, with little real effort, may not seem like much but go try it for yourself lol, i promise you itll be one of the hardest things you've experienced. My only problems lie with group tanking, due to my inability to hold aggro, my area taunt works but in a group of CL 80 players they out deal my damage, and even with me healing can i maintain aggro on a mob, and keep a high level mob from crushing those within my group who have a lower defense. These problems i think would be taken care of if we were granted a multi target attack like the old spin attack, and were given a high enough level TKM move to amplify our ability to tank in groups. In groups imho tanking is far too difficult to make us the best tanks in teh game, pikeman can outperfom tkm in tanking multiple mobs, perhaps the devs want it this way but this is my experience.

So reading through all the posts and collating (without actually doing the statistics... I'll leave that to our correspondent because I am lazy), the general consensus seems to be summed up in the following points:

• On its own, regardless of what other profession is or isn't stacked with it, TKA has excellent "staying power." We can hang in there against really tough mobs, or groups of mobs, being attacked by them, and last a respectable amount of time.
  
  
• Almost every TKA has a "damage" prof such as sword or fencer in addition to TKA so they can actually do damage. This means that being an effective TKA pretty much requires template stacking/dual classing/call it what you want. This may or may not be intended design, so maybe the devs are happy about this...?
  
  
• TKAs with Doc along with TKA in their template seem nigh-unkillable in reasonable circumstances. Again, this is good in terms of tanking.
  
  
• Holding aggro so we can actually TANK in a group is a major problem -- the taunts do not pull enough aggro for long enough to keep mobs focused on us and off the ranged damagers.
  
  
• COB is a problem because of the previous point -- we can't hold aggro = we have to chase mobs = we can't re-apply COB, hurting our ability to tank.
  

This makes it seem like the TKA class makes us into amazing solo tanks (where aggro is not an issue) but rather poor tanks for a group, since we can't hold aggro. Looking over the comments, I'd suggest that if the aggro-holding ability of Taunt were improved (and also, that TKA should get area taunt, NOT swordsman), TKAs would be superior tanks. We could withstand the punishment of all the aggro being focused on us if we could get it focused on us but that is where it breaks down.

In summary, we're working OK as a tank class, with the exception of aggro holding. The problem, of course, is that half the job of a tank is to hold aggro (the other half being withstanding the aggro once it comes at you).

There's something else they could think about in addition to changing taunt strength/duration (which, looking over these posts, I would say is pretty much manatory to get TKA working "right"). In City of Heroes, tankers, and only tankers (that's a class in COH) have a special "mini-taunt" built into every attack. So for example, a 100 hit point attack from any other class would generate (guessing now) "100 points of aggro" for determining who a mob is going after. A 100 hit point attack from a tanker would generate "150 points of aggro." They could do something similar with TKA. Since TKAs do about half the damage of most everyone else, they could have our hits count double in terms of "aggro points" or however they have it working... if we generate double hate from each hit, we can hold aggro with our strikes in addition to taunts, making us more effective.

C