Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: When will they change the stacking defenses?
Tal-N wrote:
It would be obviouslyignorant of the Dev's to seperate skills based on weapons, like not allowing Fencer to mix with Swordsman. Anyone with half a brain can understand that the skills used when fighting with a sword in one handare simular to the skill used when you add another hand to it.
Unfortuantly you are wrong, for starters this is a gameplay decision not one based around realism... however saying that there is a basis for realism here as well which doesn't take too much of a stretch. Lets take a very basic example. Say your eatting a meal, someone gives you the choice between using chopsticks or a fork. Now almost all of us have traiing and experience in using a fork, we're very effective at tackling a variety of meals using one. Even when we don't have a knife we're able to use a fork to slice through certain things to make them easier to eat. However now imagine that you have never used chopsticks, as similar as they are to using a fork they are inherantly different so you'd actually have a far harder time eatting.
When you apply this to weapons it makes alot of sense when it comes to many things, you might be experienced in doging effectively with a one-handed weapon but if you haven't used a large two-handed sword before you're ability to dodge is hampered severely since you're not used to the weight and feel of the weapon. The same applies to things like pistol accuracy, the devs might only give the pistol accuracy and speed bonus to a BH when using the scatter pistol since that branch of BH does say it extends the skills of the bounterhunter when using a carefully balanced pistol (ie. the scatter). That makes sense as pistoleer skills would focus on general pistol 'tricks' rather than further refining skills as the BH does. In that situation it becomes like when you get acustomed to driving your car, you know how it handles in a very detailed way so when you have to park it in a tight spot you're able to do it so much more skillfully. Soon as you get into someone elses car and try to do the same thing its a little more difficult cause your not used to how the car handles. The same with the BH, the Scatter becomes the weapon they train with and they become very familar with how it handles. Soon as they would pick up an FWG5 they're not quite at home with it.
I agree if they unstack them it will ruin the game and make me pay another company every month.
Food analogy for dodge ? ok,
Ranged would be like drinking and Melee would be like eating. If you can drink from a glass you should know how to drink from a bottle. If you can eat with a fork you can eat with sticks no matter if the "Utensil"? has 4 sharp prongs or if it only has 2 you still know how to stab it and put it in your mouth.
If you can dodge a attack from a guy swinging a knife at you by observing his body laguage to anticipate where that swing is going you can move out of the way. This is the same with a dagger in your hand or a pistol since what is in your hand did not "Dodge" anything your bodydid.
Now "Block" is another story blocking with a staff is very different than with a foil.
All other melee defences should stack no matter what. I know it is not realistic in every detail that is why I think that a seperation in Melee and Ranged is alowable.
But to limit all skills to only applying to the specific weapon tree 1Handed, 2 handed, Unarmed etc. will eliminate the value of most templates forcing us to be Just a TKA. It will also eliminate the Master Brawler and Master marksmen classes. That would mean when we are holding our knucks we can not use Lunge or intimidate or any other Brawler skill and be limited to only true TKA skills.
Utterly lame and unforgivable if they even think about it.
Too many new games comming out and them unstacking them would just make more people leave.
Lets hope they dont.
Removing the stacking will actually force more thinking into combat. As it stands people will almost always use just a single weapon. By making them switch between the strengths and weaknesses of various professions you'll be seeing people thinking more about combat and you won't have the ludicriously powerful templates either. Yes it'll turn the game into a semi-class based one, however you will have the option to take various classes skills. One of the benefits here is that it'll cut down on the dabblers becoming more powerful in a certain type of combat than a master. As it stands we know of the massive dodge bonuses possible with certain skill blends, this allows that player to be more powerful than someone who has mastered any of the melee professions and that is the root of why it's being changed.
Saying it will prevent unique templates is silly, you don't HAVE to master a profession and the fact is that someone who dabblers in short range and long range fighting has more flexability than someone who focusses on a single type and naturally with the way they're going to focus professions into fixed roles you'll start seeing a fantastic amount of diversity rather than almost everyone taking pistol skills because they are so powerful in many situations.
Just did a few experiments with master BE enhanced food using 12 chef experimentation points.
First item created was Thakitillo. The end result being:
Defense vs Knockdown +94.3 for 10 mins.
Essentially making you nearly invulnerable to KD attacks.
This was posted by a BE / Chef on the Furry forums shortly after the patch. I will ask if she has had the time to run some experiments on the +dodge foods.
If you can replicate (to a degree, as you don't have the melee / ranged defenses as an added boost) the effect of stacking pistoleer with fencer by eating food, what's the point of nerfing HDT's?
Granted these BE enhanced foods take mutiple professions to produce, a handfull of factory runs, and cost around 350K a crate...
Col. Cristos Diaz
hellopotato wrote:
Very excellent points Tal-N. If you learn to defend against ranged opponents with a pistol (ranged d mods from pistoleer), then you have learned how to defend against them while using your pistol. When you learn to defend against ranged opponents with a two-handed sword, you now know how best to avoid fire while using that weapon.
How can you really incorporate how you defend yourself with a pistol into fighting with a sword? Are you going to shoot lasers out of your sword to force the person into cover, or to make them take less time aiming at you?
These are two different skills that are used in two different situations, how do their powers combine?
I can answer your questions. Lets say someone is a master TK and a master fencer, wielding a fencer weapon. You can argue that the master fencer\master tk wielding a fencer weapon would be better off defense-wise against another TK, thansomeone who is merely a master fencer,because of his knowledge of TK moves and how to counter them.
Perhaps an interesting solution to defense stacking would be allowing the defense to stack according to your opponent. So a master TK\master fencer would only use stacked defense mods if they are fighting someone of their same defense class. Same thing would apply to melee vs ranged defense mods. A master TK\Master Pistoleer fighting with his fists against another master pistoleer might be able stack his ranged defense skills because of his knowledge of pistol techniques andhow a difficult target might behave.This might be a complicated solution, as the engine would have to compute defenses according to the owner of every shot\projectile\punch\hit landed on someone, but an interesting one nevertheless.
Well there is a cap for most things, so also with defenses, at least the knockdown mentioned. On the official site some explainations are given for the new chef foods:
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=Friday%20Feature%20Chef%20Revamp
for those who are lazy (and I know most of you are 
) this is the quote that holds interest in this case:
"Thakitillo offers significant protection from enemies who use knockdown attacks in combat. A knockdown attack will always have at least a 10% chance of succeeding, so this food won't give you absolute protection, but it will definitely tip the odds in your favor."
To be honest, if they leave melee and ranged Defence, and the Knock down / stun / ect defences stackable, BUT limit them, or retool them to more workable, and then make our seconday defeces, the blocks / counter attacks / doudges weapons spefici, that's make senice.
Sure, it'strue a swordsmen will defend deferently than a pikemen with his sword. It's true that a TKM will defend deferently with his hands than a fencer will with his dagger / short sword.
BUT there are defencive that trancend your weapons. Someones who's really trained in comabt can antaispate an attack and defend against it, not mater what he's got in his hands.
A master swordsman will STILL be able to defend himself to some extent even if he doesn't have his sword. He's still got his gut feeling and general combat experaince.
and someone who's masted 2 combat skills will be much better at defending himself than someone whos only masted one. He'll just have more combat expearince and have a greater knowlage pool to chose from.
Just caue you put a sword or a knife in a TK's hands doenst mean he should lose ALL his ability to defend himself, that just wouldn't make ANY since...
besides, what does your weapon have to do when it comes to defending against Intemadation or Stun?
and if all defence was simply relitive to the class you train and the weapon you hold, we'd all be cookie cutter classes of each other. No real deverseity at all. And what fun would that be?
yeah, defence, among other things, needs work, but making all defence class and weapons spefiific is a bad idea... IMO that is.
KingSnake.
I can answer your questions. Lets say someone is a master TK and a master fencer, wielding a fencer weapon. You can argue that the master fencer\master tk wielding a fencer weapon would be better off defense-wise against another TK, thansomeone who is merely a master fencer,because of his knowledge of TK moves and how to counter them.
Again wrong. As someone else stated and I agree this is a gameplay change not one based on realism. However even so this does indeed work from a realism point of view. Anyone who has done any martial arts knows that some styles are so different in in the stances and how they work that just because you're able to do Mui Thai and Tai Kwon Do doesn't mean you're better than someone else who knows as much as you in one of them but not the other. The two styles are both hand to hand however they work totally differently, in your example of fencing and TKA the two are very different. Someone who is very familar with fighting without carrying a weapon won't benefit from that skill when they're forced to carry a sword around with them and aren't used to it.
Sure he'll understand the TK moves that the opponent uses and know the counters, however when you have a sword in your hand it's done totally differntly to when your unarmed.
Tal-N wrote:
I can answer your questions. Lets say someone is a master TK and a master fencer, wielding a fencer weapon. You can argue that the master fencer\master tk wielding a fencer weapon would be better off defense-wise against another TK, thansomeone who is merely a master fencer,because of his knowledge of TK moves and how to counter them.
Again wrong. As someone else stated and I agree this is a gameplay change not one based on realism. However even so this does indeed work from a realism point of view. Anyone who has done any martial arts knows that some styles are so different in in the stances and how they work that just because you're able to do Mui Thai and Tai Kwon Do doesn't mean you're better than someone else who knows as much as you in one of them but not the other. The two styles are both hand to hand however they work totally differently, in your example of fencing and TKA the two are very different. Someone who is very familar with fighting without carrying a weapon won't benefit from that skill when they're forced to carry a sword around with them and aren't used to it.
Sure he'll understand the TK moves that the opponent uses and know the counters, however when you have a sword in your hand it's done totally differntly to when your unarmed.
but if he is a MASTER at both, he'll know how to defend himself with his sword, and be able to antisipate TK attacks better since he's a master of that art as well. The above person stated that he was a master of BOTH. He wouldn't be uncomfertable with his sword in hand, like you said. Now give a TKM master who's never used a sword one, yeah, that'll mess him up, but a TKM/Fencer, who's masterd both, will be able to blend both styles.
As for the master of 2 style being beaten by a master of one, or vice versa... it kind of all boils down to personal skill level and awareness of what's going on... yeah a really master of a style my indeed be better than a master of 2... not because of the styles used, but because of personl skill, quickness, awarness, expearince, ect.
but that kind of indeveiguality can't be mirrored in SWG. at master TKM is as good as any other TKM... When in real life, there could be a VAST difference in skills.
KingSnake.
blast, i've been a memember of this board for more than 6 months... were's my edit button...
hope you can make out what i was trying to say... re reading it... i notice my deslexia must have been acting up...
KingSNake.
Antisipation of the attack doesn't mean they can do as much about it, put simply with certain weapons you simply cannot do certain things. Someone with a pike cannot be nearly as agile as someone who only has a dagger in their hand. So the benefits of the skills from another profession simply do not matter. Another case in point is the 'toughness' skill mod, this can be compared to how fighters fiegn from a blow to soften the impact. Someone who is unarmed can do this far better due to the fact they can shift their weight much better, however someone with a large powerhammer has a harder time shifting their weight without falling down which is why the 'toughness' skill mods for different professions don't stack. The devs are simply extending this for everything else.
Taking your example further you simply cannot draw direct comparasons with the game, again this is because this choice was based on gameplay not realism. The fact is that someone has to be trained to deal with a different fighting style using their current one, since there is no familarity that can be gained in the game it means that no one has be trained to deal with other combat styles. A good comparason is that someone with a sword might also understand how to use a pistol. However while they understand these skills seperately they have not been trained in how to use a pistol agianst someone with a sword and vice versa. Thus the defences from seperate professions wouldn't be of any benefit as they only apply to how you handle the current weapon. Perhaps the devs will allow for some kind of Versues bonus for people who dabble in more than one profession, someone who has unarmed and swords might be able to then have access totwo special mini-professions which allows them to gain added counters and defences against someone who is using a sword while you are unarmed or vice versa.
Tal-N wrote:
but if he is a MASTER at both, he'll know how to defend himself with his sword, and be able to antisipate TK attacks better since he's a master of that art as well.
Antisipation of the attack doesn't mean they can do as much about it, put simply with certain weapons you simply cannot do certain things. Someone with a pike cannot be nearly as agile as someone who only has a dagger in their hand. So the benefits of the skills from another profession simply do not matter. Another case in point is the 'toughness' skill mod, this can be compared to how fighters fiegn from a blow to soften the impact. Someone who is unarmed can do this far better due to the fact they can shift their weight much better, however someone with a large powerhammer has a harder time shifting their weight without falling down which is why the 'toughness' skill mods for different professions don't stack. The devs are simply extending this for everything else.
Taking your example further you simply cannot draw direct comparasons with the game, again this is because this choice was based on gameplay not realism. The fact is that someone has to be trained to deal with a different fighting style using their current one, since there is no familarity that can be gained in the game it means that no one has be trained to deal with other combat styles. A good comparason is that someone with a sword might also understand how to use a pistol. However while they understand these skills seperately they have not been trained in how to use a pistol agianst someone with a sword and vice versa. Thus the defences from seperate professions wouldn't be of any benefit as they only apply to how you handle the current weapon. Perhaps the devs will allow for some kind of Versues bonus for people who dabble in more than one profession, someone who has unarmed and swords might be able to then have access totwo special mini-professions which allows them to gain added counters and defences against someone who is using a sword while you are unarmed or vice versa.