Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Save us all the bother, remove all melee classes completely.
You haven't been listening.
We have correspondents, what use are they? No use.
The questions we submit to be answered, return to us with vague one sentence quotes. No explanation, no elaboration. The excuse that "oh we have 32 different professions to look at, so sorry the replies are quick" is not good enough. If this was the case then why bother asking for correspondents at all? I would have prefered no response at all to the garbage we get as feedback.
We outline issues, problems with balance, we givefeedback. You appear to listen. Then implementchanges that make the situation worse.
Knockdown
You raised the Ham costs it to stop it from being "chained". Fair enough I say. I have no problem with this.
However you increase the costs for Teras Kasi artists to use it to 700 with a knuckler equipped, 200 without. NO other class hasanywhere near thisHam cost for a knockdown move. Add to the fact that we have to actually get within range and then STAND STILL to use it, compared to ranged users who can kite and fire off knockdown moves with impunity. Increase costs fine, increasing it to such a stupid level and limiting it to Teras Kasi is beyond my comprehension.
Lunge
Does not work. Even when you are right on top of the creature or player it's always "out or range". 1/2/5/10m it makes no difference the result is the same. Server sync issues, lag issues, player not being the right distance away, I've heard all the reasons as to possibly why. It needs to be looked at.
I have no problem whatsoever that a ranged player has the advantage over me and that yes, Ihave to close the distance. However with lunge working as it is I cannot close the distance, I cannot effectively stop someone from running.
- Some form of crippling move, perhaps adding to a specific bodyshot,to decrease a mobs speed whilst running might be helpful. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
The 30 second timer
This will kill the melee class. It's as simple as that. I don't want to spam knockdown to totally immobilise a player and not give him a chance. I want to use it to stop him from running and perhaps get a few hits in, before he gets back up. However, you have applied the 30 second timer to posture change moves as well. This includes lunge.
If a ranged player attacks me, I will only get the chance to slow their movement once every 30 seconds for each move. Knockdown will give me 5 seconds to hit them, lunge will only slow their movements for all of a second before they get back up. Within the next 30 seconds of me running after them, unable to slow them down, I will die.
The timer will work in the ranged users favour. They will use it to gain distance and have success because they can still hit us from 20/40/60m away. Melee users will also try to use knockdown and lungeto gain distance and fail. We have to stand still to hit anything, we cannot hit whilst running.
Accuracy whilst running / Defence whilst moving
Whilst running away from me, players and Mobs accuracy does NOT decrease significantly. They shoot and hit me as constantly running the same as if they were standing, kneeling or prone.
You have outlined some changes to this. Regarding making moving objects harder to hit as well as running and shooting making you less accurate. I have no problems with this. This is a change I like. As to how well it will be implemented, if at all, remains to be seen yet.
Defensive skills
Do they work? I have NEVER received or seen an answer to this question. Ranged defence, Melee Defence, Unarmed toughness, Defence vs Knockdown/dizzy/stun/etc and countless others. As far as I can see, they don't.
I am a Master oftwo Elite combat professions. I have +60 defence vs knockdown, I have +70 Defence vs Posture Change. Do these make the slightest bit of difference when I am fighting? PVP or PVE the answer is NO
Mob stuck warp
A recent patch change saw that when mobs get stuck they will warp past the object they are stuck on. Fair enough. A melee player fights inbetweenfour tents on a rebel destroy mission. The mobs run into the tent "get stuck" and warp over 30m away. They then proceed to fire at the melee player from a distance and kill him.
The Stormtrooper Saga
"Here's the objective baseline we use: a maxxed out TKA should be an even match (meaning, 50/50 chance of life or death) versus any of the following:"
-Raph Koster, Creative Director
Included in this list are stormtroopers. I fight stormtroopers, they are white to me.
Perfect Scenario
I run up to a stormtrooper depending on if I am Overt or Covert it has already opened fire on me, or as soon as I hit it, will start to fire on me. I hit the stormtrooper a few times, it takes damage and starts to run. I lunge to stop it from getting far and hit it a few more times. Then I knock it down and keep hitting it, adding in dizzy, stun blind to increase my damage chances. It gets up and we fight for a bit longer. It dies.
Actual Scenario
I run up to a stormtrooper depending on if I am Overt or Covert it has already opened fire on me, or as soon as I hit it, will start to fire on me. I hit the stormtrooper a few times, it takes damage and starts to run. I lunge to stop it from getting far, it tells me I am out of range even though I am within 8m of it. I run after the stormtrooper continously hitting lunge, whilst it is firing at me never missing because its accuracy is perfect whilst running. I take too much damage and hide behind a house. The stormtrooper shoots me through the house. Because of the new "mob stuck" changes it warps to the side of the house I am on and hits me some more. The stormtrooper runs away still firing and hitting. I get incapacitated and die.
With the 30 second timer included, the perfect scenario will never happen.
Save us all the bother, remove all melee classes completely. You're obviously not reading or listening to threads on any of the melee forums about suggestions. So save yourself the headache. Then you'll have fewer professions to worry about.
- Let the correspondents copy their character over to the Test Server so they can actually have direct feedback with the changes you propose and then perhaps actually talk to the dev in charge of their profession.
1) True, Knockdown did add downtime to the class where there was none before. But then again, we needed it. If you can't handle the HAM cost, or are too lazy to change strategies, find a TKA friend to hunt with. KD till you can't, then have him/her/them KD till they can't. If you don't want to group, be content to hunting deep blue cons.
2) Lunge does work. It works on NPCs and monsters alike. It works at1m, 5m, 10m, and 15m. I level my pistol skills using luinge and a chuba.. not even difficult.
3) 30 second timer is a product of people like you. You do the cheapest cheese possible, until the devs decide what you're doing is too easy for their master plan. And they change it so you get another reason to whine. All you TKAs and BHs with no brains other than to make a macro that spams KD for you, thanks. I needed increased KD HAM costs; I needed a posture change timer. I need more reasons to pursue a secondary profession, instead of working on finding the cap for unarmed xp as a TKM.
4) Ranged defense does wonders. Find some dinky ranged monster(a Gungan for instance): attack it with a TKM and fresh newbie. Wow, they miss a lot more. Gee.
5) Accuracy while moving shouldn't be a problem. You shouldn't be running after people. You have more brains than that remember?
6) Until you have +100, there's still the chance. Get over it.
7) Actual scenario: most STs carry rifles. Most STs, being the imps they are, are too dumb to put their rifles up. Dizzy, lunge. On your knees.. boy. Oops, you fell over. /unarmedhit3; /unarmedhit3. Wow, dead ST. /loot. Yay. 3k xp and I used my brain! /cheer self.
Save me all the bother. Remove melee classes, and all special moves entirely. Make all guns, even CDEFs, do 1k damage per shot guaranteed to all pools, make them all AR3 piercing, Make all weapons automatically KD, automatically bleed. Make there be no reason for me to have a brain, especially no good reason for me to use it. Thanks again 
1) True, Knockdown did add downtime to the class where there was none before. But then again, we needed it. If you can't handle the HAM cost, or are too lazy to change strategies, find a TKA friend to hunt with. KD till you can't, then have him/her/them KD till they can't. If you don't want to group, be content to hunting deep blue cons.
My point was that we cannot handle the Ham cost. Downtime is all well and good. My point was that it costs us 700 Ham to use a special move. No other class in the game has anything near this Ham cost. It has nothing to so with being "too lazy to change strategies", knockdown for me is primarily a move to stop someone from running. The fact that I outline that many other classes can "chain" knockdown to stop us from getting even close, whereas we can use it only twice, provided we are standing still and within spitting distance of the target.
No other class has to unequip their weapons to perform a special, then re-equip their weapon again.
2) Lunge does work. It works on NPCs and monsters alike. It works at1m, 5m, 10m, and 15m. I level my pistol skills using luinge and a chuba.. not even difficult.
Then you have the advantage over hundreds of players that frequent the melee profession boards. Are the monsters stationary or running away? Are they bipedal or Quadruped? The mainuse for lunge again is to stop someone from running so we can catch up. It is near impossible to lunge arunning player/mob without having to press it 20 odd times because of "out of range" messages.
3) 30 second timer is a product of people like you. You do the cheapest cheese possible, until the devs decide what you're doing is too easy for their master plan. And they change it so you get another reason to whine. All you TKAs and BHs with no brains other than to make a macro that spams KD for you, thanks. I needed increased KD HAM costs; I needed a posture change timer. I need more reasons to pursue a secondary profession, instead of working on finding the cap for unarmed xp as a TKM.
The product of people like me? The product of wanting to stop someone from running so I can actually move within range to hit them? As I stated several times in my post, INEVER have or wanted to spam knockdown or lunge. Both of these moves are an asset to slowing down kiting mobs or players.
The 30 second rule may be fine for ranged users because they can stop melee users from chasing after them, however if I lunge or knockdown and I miss both, or do not kill the player/mob before it gets up and runs off again I have another 30 seconds with which to chase after it and still get shot at, or I run away.
4) Ranged defense does wonders. Find some dinky ranged monster(a Gungan for instance): attack it with a TKM and fresh newbie. Wow, they miss a lot more. Gee.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=3372
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=teras_kasi_artist&message.id=6230
These are just two examples of tests performed on defensive skills, with stats and results. There are many more on the Pistoleer forums as well as here on Teras Kasi forum and the other professions.
Testing the skills on some "dinky ranged monster" isn't going to cut it.
5) Accuracy while moving shouldn't be a problem. You shouldn't be running after people. You have more brains than that remember?
I shouldn't be running after people? So if a ranged player or mob shoots at me, I should justlay down and die? I should stop hunting any ranged mobs because I shouldn't run after them?
6) Until you have +100, there's still the chance. Get over it.
See my reply to your point 4. Yes if I had +100 defensive skills my chances obviously would be better defending against attacks. However with all the test data that is floating around on these forums, plus itsa question that Devs have never answered, there would still be a chance even if I had +100 because they do not work, or do work effectively.
7) Actual scenario: most STs carry rifles. Most STs, being the imps they are, are too dumb to put their rifles up. Dizzy, lunge. On your knees.. boy. Oops, you fell over. /unarmedhit3; /unarmedhit3. Wow, dead ST. /loot. Yay. 3k xp and I used my brain! /cheer self.
Introduce the 30 second timer into your scenario. You miss the lunge and the stormtrooper starts running. It's out of range for knockdown and starts to fire. Well you've already said "You shouldn't be running after people" so according to youthis is the point where we should just give up.
Make all guns, even CDEFs, do 1k damage per shot guaranteed to all pools, make them all AR3 piercing, Make all weapons automatically KD, automatically bleed. Make there be no reason for me to have a brain, especially no good reason for me to use it. Thanks again
Your suggestion not mine. Farcical.
Are you a Teras Kasi Master? I'm all up for constructive criticism and other viewpoints. But when someone posts a "You're wrong, I'm right" reply, it tends to not solve anything. Show us some results, post some stats, take some screenshots to back up what you have to say. Otherwise there honestly was no point in posting.
Try doing a proper melee defense test:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swordsman&message.id=2682
my problem with this topic with 90% of tkas, they whine about oh i have to unequip my vk. :cry
1) Putting the vk on your toolbar it takes all of 1 sec /gasp
2) if you are in full armor and your pool stats are only like 50, you deserve to be incaped by a baby gnort IMO
3) last but not least. WE ARE THE MASTER OF UNARMED COMBAT! NOT THE MASTERS OF USING SOME ADVANCED BRASS KNUCKLES.
also, besides most TKA's not using thier brains, along with that you dont use your stomach. Odd? yes. While it is hard to find a good chef, you may find that if you just invest some cash into good food, you may not incap yourself. with maybe 1kish cr i can add tons of +str sta quick and const with only loss of mind stats which dont matter much. If you are going to whine that 1cr may seem a lot, then you obviously are not that high as a TKA, once you hit even novice 1k cr is insanely easy to get even with the destroy mission rewards cut into 1/4 of what they were.
You need to change your stratigies. I am way better at my profession since the nerf. I am only a 2/2/4/3 TK and I can still solo Griant Baz on Dathimor, one at a time, and that is the way it should be. I can still go to Lok and run 16k missions solo no problem. I can successfully solo on Endor. How you may say? I'm a TK and I get killed by whites, ya well if that is so you just don't know how to play.
Since the patch I have done stat migration to increase my mind and have picked up novice medic, that is all you really need to do. I'm not a CH and I don't start battles with range weapons. What is so hard about unequiping your VKs for doing special moves? Is it that hard for you to put the short cut up on the bar and just hit one button before you do a special then hit it again when your done?
Also here is a tip, think about it, if you are always taking your VKs off when your doing specials then the only perpose of the VKs is added damage when your doing regular attacks. SO, maybe you might want to pick up another melee class, like say 2h swords man, so you can do way more damage when doing just regular attacks and then unequip your sword or whatever, do your TK specials like you would still normally do, then equip the sword and do more damage then you would if you had VKs in your hand.
Melee classes still are way better at PvE then range classes! I can take on so much more then my range friends as a melee. Why, because almost all creatures fight melee. And therefore melee is better.
Why you continue to cry about not being super uber is beyond me. You are still uber, you just need to learn how to play, expand your skill slots to hold 24, and put more skills up there other then KD, Dizzy and Lunge like you had before, because that is all you needed. Then game just got too complicatied for you and you have to cry.
Melee rocks in game! What are you talking about? Quit sad, and even sadder that there are a lot of people here that agree with your complant.
"Try doing a proper melee defense test:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swordsman&message.id=2682"
Thanks steff155 I'll get round to giving it a try later on today.
my problem with this topic with 90% of tkas, they whine about oh i have to unequip my vk. :cry
1) Putting the vk on your toolbar it takes all of 1 sec /gasp
2) if you are in full armor and your pool stats are only like 50, you deserve to be incaped by a baby gnort IMO
3) last but not least. WE ARE THE MASTER OF UNARMED COMBAT! NOT THE MASTERS OF USING SOME ADVANCED BRASS KNUCKLES.
also, besides most TKA's not using thier brains, along with that you dont use your stomach. Odd? yes. While it is hard to find a good chef, you may find that if you just invest some cash into good food, you may not incap yourself.
What other class has to unequip their weapon to perform a special? None. And if they do they equip a lower ham cost weapon to do so, which is pretty much what we are doing - handsover knuckles. Yes you can get buffs, food and spice. anyone can get 3k+ stats with all these combined.
http://www.subliminate.com/screenShot0036.jpgis an example before I've spiced.
Again yet another person who misses my point completely. I have no problem with increased Ham costs whatsoever. I do have a problem with the fact that it costs US 700/200 and no other profession anywhere near this.
Knockdown is byfar the least of my concerns when I outline lots more that are problematic in our class and melee in general.
Yes we are the masters of unarmed combat, not the masters of using brass knuckles. However Soe in their infinite wisdom created a tool that would give us an advantage in a fight. Increased damage. Everyone should know that you use EVERY single advantage you can get in a fight, to increase your chances of survival. Unequipping and re equipping during a fight isn't a problem, but if you get it wrong or if the game lags,a move that could cost you 50, costs you 200 instead. A factor I don't want to have to worry about when I'm fighting, when there's lots more going on around me.
Id prefer it if they did away with knuckles altogether and then staggered the damage range up the skill tree.
Since the patch I have done stat migration to increase my mind and have picked up novice medic, that is all you really need to do. I'm not a CH and I don't start battles with range weapons.
I have first Aid IV and Pharmacology III - I use Stimpack Cs for 650+ Heals.
What is so hard about unequiping your VKs for doing special moves? Is it that hard for you to put the short cut up on the bar and just hit one button before you do a special then hit it again when your done?
Yet another person. Why should we have to unequip our weapon to perform specials? And see my point above for lag/getting it wrong etc.
Also here is a tip, think about it, if you are always taking your VKs off when your doing specials then the only perpose of the VKs is added damage when your doing regular attacks. SO, maybe you might want to pick up another melee class, like say 2h swords man, so you can do way more damage when doing just regular attacks and then unequip your sword or whatever, do your TK specials like you would still normally do, then equip the sword and do more damage then you would if you had VKs in your hand.
And again you haven't read my post. I am a Master oftwo Elite combat professions. Teras Kasi and Fencing. And damage is not an issue, nor did it feature in my post. I find my damage output fine.
Melee classes still are way better at PvE then range classes! I can take on so much more then my range friends as a melee. Why, because almost all creatures fight melee. And therefore melee is better.
Utter rubbish.
Why you continue to cry about not being super uber is beyond me. You are still uber, you just need to learn how to play, expand your skill slots to hold 24, and put more skills up there other then KD, Dizzy and Lunge like you had before, because that is all you needed. Then game just got too complicatied for you and you have to cry.
Melee rocks in game! What are you talking about? Quit sad, and even sadder that there are a lot of people here that agree with your complant.
I have nowhere mentioned in any of my posts that I want to be "super uber". You have not read a single word of my post.
The skills knockdown, dizzy and lunge are the only moves that give a melee player a chance at slowing, stopping or incapacitating a ranged player or mob. When the skills do not work properly, combined with game bugs, server synchronisation and the fact that the 30 second timer will be introduced it will give the ranged players/mobs more of advantage over melee.
Ranged users have the advantage over melee.
And I believe fully that they should.
I accept that people "shouldn't bring knives to gun fights".
I have no problem with having to close the distance tothem to be able to damage them.
But when the moves given to me that allow me to do so are "nerfed" beyond belief and in some cases do not work properly, the advantage gap will only get wider.
You get around to all the current issues for melee classes, issues that are gamebreaking or soon to be, and others that needs urgent atention for us to have any place in PvP or PvE vs ranged.