Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Raph Koster's 8/12/03 response to the Brawler vs Marksman PvP debate
Raph Koster's response to my initial topic:
"In one on one PvP combat in an open area, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. There's no other way to put it.
In closed quarters, it isn't quite as cleara scenario.
I think anyone who has had mixed meleers and ranged folks in a group knows that meleers do indeed have a good role to play. But in head-to-head one-on-onePvP, there's no getting past the fact that melee vs blaster is a mismatch in favor of the blaster in most areas in the game.
IMHO, this doesn't mean that melee is not worth having in the game. People enjoy it, people do well at it, and they want it in the game. It's just hard to get past the fundamental fact that blasters are a superior weapon at a distance.
-Raph Koster, Creative Director"
When the SWG Creative Director tell us brawling classes "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight", we would alldo well totake heed to his advice. It is now clear that TKAs are at the very bottom of the PvP combat food chain and will remain there. In other words, brawling professions will always be far inferior to marksman professions in SWG PvP, end of story.
I am very disappointed by this, but very pleased thatRaphat least let us know where we stand.
To read the entire thread, go to the URL below:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=288152
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Raph Koster on balance in SWG:
"On the other hand, we're just plain giving up on the issue of melee combat. A good ranged guy is always gonna take a good close quarters guy, and there's no getting past that. Yes, we've innvested a fair amount of time in vibroblades and stun poles and what have you, and there's skills to learn for melee, motioan captured moves, and all sorts of goodness. But really, we already know the min-maxers won't use that stuff. So it's there for those whose self-image really calls for it."
URL for complete comments:
http//www.kanga.nu/archives/MUD-Dev-L/2001Q4/msg01048.php
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Q-3PO wrote on 08-08-2003 1114 AM:
dyonsos,
"To us "balanced" means the professions are worth playing to the types of people who like to play them; the skills are fun, they excel at some things, they are weak at other things. We do want combat to be engaging and it usually isn't if everyone feels they have to have one certain skill set in order to have any chance of success. But we are more on your side, the professions should be different. Prone riflemen should get killed by TKAs in close quarters, melee guys should fear ranged weapons, medic should pick up some weapon skills if they want to survive a firefight. Our system hopefully encourages people to find the skill sets that are right for their style of play.
So don't think we are "caving" by addressing the top concerns of a profession. We'll be careful to give them what they need to have fun and not give into the "the other profession is better than mine because it has..." arguments.
Kevin "Q-3PO" O'Hara
SWG Community Relations Manager"
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Kevin, it is very clear from Raph Koster's and your comments that, from the very beginning, all Brawling Professions were intended to be inferior combat professions with no real chance of competing and winning in player-versus-player combat. This being the case, why even have Brawling Professions in SWG? I assure you that people do not enjoy playing competitive PC games in which they are guaranteed to be losers 99.9% of the time.
You commented that "Prone riflemen should get killed by TKAs in close quarters". What you failed to mention (providing the TKA doesn't get pistol-whipped by a pistoleer first) is that unless the rifleman is away from his keyboard, a Teras Kasi Artist has no way of defeating his (or any other marksman's) Run & Gun/Killing-in-Transit tactics and getting into melee combat range. Marksmen can attack on the run as far away from 50+ meters; Brawlers cannot attack on the run and have to be within an average of 5 meters.
Many use the realism "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" argument. Yet a MMORPG based on a science fiction/fantasy movie is about the furthest away from real life that one can get. The only boundaries of Star Wars is that of George Lucas' imagination. If we wanted a game true to real life, there would be no blasters, X-Wing Fighters, or Wookiees in SWG. I find it very odd that so many people are not open to the idea of melee professions being viable in PvP combat in a MMORPG (where traditionally melee classes are feared tanks who can deliver and receive the most damage of any class) based on a sci-fi movie series where lone Jedi, armed with only a lightsaber (melee weapon), successfully defeat multiple waves of attacking gunmen/robots. Let's face it, realism is not a marksmen profession who can run at full speed with his waist turned around in the opposite direction while maintaining lock-on, pin-point accuracy using only one arm to shoot without having to aim.
Another strong indication that the developers view and dismiss brawling classes as unimportant PvP cannon fodder, is the fact that out of the TKAs two most important skills, Berserk is totally being removed from the game, and TKA Knockdown is going to receive the highest usage penalty of all knockdown moves in SWG. Correct me if these figures are wrong
Pistol KD - 180 HAM
Carbine KD - 290 HAM
Teras Kasi KD - 430 HAM
Were TKAs guilty of spamming knockdown in PvP? No, again, we rarely even get into attack range in PvP combat; yet, our knockdown is being penalized the most. Why? As far as Berserk, as a Unarmed Master/Novice TKA, I have yet to find a special move, from Unarmed Body Hit on down, that is as useful as Berserk. There is not even any kind of trade-off announced in the upcoming patch notes such as out other special moves being made more effective because Berserk is being eliminated.
Vibro Knucklers, the only weapon we can use, are about as effective with special moves (other than Berserk) as the bugged Carbine that sucked away a player's entire action bar within three special moves. In addition, Vibro Knucklers greatly pale in damage comparison to any decent firearm. Without Vibro Knucklers, I hit for around 75 regular damage; wearing Vibro Knucklers, I hit for 150 to 175 regular damage. A far cry from getting hit for 1025 damage by a Novice Bounty Hunter (at 0-0-1-0) with one Underhand Shot from a laser carbine. Yet Vibro Knucklers too are getting nerfed with the upcoming patch.
I am not for quick knee-jerk nerfs to attempt to bring about PvP balance, but I am for thoughtful solutions on how to enhance other professions so that they have more of a fair chance of winning in PvP combat. For example, the main reason that brawlers are so ineffective in PvP combat is because they cannot close the gap between them and fleeing marksmen. Why not give brawlers PvP survival skills like the ability to dodge gunfire & to attack while running, a longer burst run, and stick command (instead of the follow command that stops following outside of melee attack range) so that they actually have a chance of getting within melee attack range? Surely these skills are not outside of a martial artist who has devoted his life to training his body to being a weapon.
I do applaud your efforts for planning to make PvP battles last longer by reducing PvP damage and eliminating the ability to spam "instant victory" commands; however, an attempt at balance between melee and ranged weapons doesn't appear to be anywhere in the future of SWG's PvP system. I realize that perfect PvP balance is impossible, but as a veteran of Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Anarchy Online, I can honestly tell you that it is very possible for melee professions to be more viable in PvP combat, and for SWG's PvP combat system to become more balanced because I have seen it done in other MMORPGs.
"A good ranged guy is always gonna take a good close quarters guy, and there's no getting past that."
However, if brawling professions were never meant to be an effective combat classes, but nothing more than a profession title for someone who really wants to role-play a Master Teras Kasi (or other melee profession) because of his "self image", you might as well totally remove them from SWG instead of really disappointing all of the players who enjoy playing melee characters. What is the point of mastering a melee combat profession if I have to also master a marksman profession just to survive in PvP combat? Doing so is just a waste of time and skill points.
"On the other hand, we're just plain giving up on the issue of melee combat."
If this is the final word by the Lead SWG Developer on brawling professions, then we should all give up on melee combat too because it was predestined to be the inferior, mediocre form of fighting in Star Wars Galaxies.
Thank you,
A Master Marksman/ Novice Teras Kasi Artist/ Novice Creature Handler on Kettemoor
I can deal with the whole bull**edit** about ranged vs melee and all that but i need to know why pistol has a melee def. Did the dev not say we as melee whould rule close combat? so why give a ranged class a way to stop melee at close range?
Heh, I still cannot believe that Raph replied with the phrase that all brawlers have really come to hate. To me, that was the last nail in our coffin.
The is the first MMORPG that I have ever played in which melee users are so weak and totally owned by ranged attackers in PvP.
"In one on one PvP combat in an open area, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. There's no other way to put it."
This is such a thoughtless reply, as it makes an attempt (feebly) at trying to inject a sense of 'realism' into the argument. Fine. I can understand that.
But what about fully-armored riflemen, carrying huge rifles, being able to run away from a TKA (wearing nothing but clothes), whilesimultaneously being able to fire rifle shot after rifle shot, over their shoulder, until the TKA is dead?
Why can'tthe TKA catch said riflemen, who is clearly encumbered and using a*suypposedly* disadvantaged weapons (a rifle)????
If Raph wants to use pseudo-realism to defend his comments, he needs to do so from both sides. As I see it now, the"Don't bring a knife ... " comment is justa slap in the face.
The fact of the matter is, if you try to balance melee and ranged combat in PvP, you're always going to piss someone off. As things stand, it's at least somewhat realistic. If you're 50 meters from someone and they have a gun, there's almost no way in hell you can get up next to them and kill them before they can kill you. If you try to balance it the other way and make things less realistic but more even, then you either have to have people move at lightning speed just because they don't carry a gun, or make guns do a whole lot less damage. And if you do that, then you get this same "PvP combat is unbalanced" thread on the ranged profession boards, rather than the melee profession boards.
As to the question of why have melee combat in the game at all, well, not everyone plays PvP. SWG offers plenty in the way of PvE combat, and from what I've seen, TKAs do quite well in PvE.
This game is all about choices. If you want to be a Master Bounty Hunter, you can't be a Master Creature Handler, too. You can't "max out" on everything in the game. And just like you have to pick and choose which skills you want from each profession, you have to make a choice between being good at PvP combat, or being a TKA.
I mean, think about how things are in the Star Wars universe. About the only people you see not using blasters are Jedi. And they use the force and their lightsabers to block blaster fire. Short of that, any time someone in the movies is faced with more firepower than they're equipped to deal with, they do the only sensible thing they can do: Run!
"As to the question of why have melee combat in the game at all, well, not everyone plays PvP. SWG offers plenty in the way of PvE combat, and from what I've seen, TKAs do quite well in PvE. "
Not anymore. KD for TKA is now insane HAM wise. Please stop posting innacurate info.
Excellent post. Even rings more true with the latest patch.
Please give us some love with a reply Holo......pretty please? Tell me I should give up those valuable TKA skill points even tho I'm close to master.....I'll be mad for wasting my time but at least I can go have fun again.
After reading Holocrons reply to some of the TKA and Brawler issues in the game, i decided that things were pretty clear cut.. Melees are only for people with a serious masochistic streak. They no better in close, lack range, their Specials are sub-par damage wise and cost far more ham. So i dropped my TKA and picked up an old scout blaster.. now reading the patch notes and TKA feedback im sorry to see just how good a choice that was 
I can understand why they'd want a game to be centred around ranged weapon and ranged combat.. but if so why make half the combat classes of the game melee.. why make them ahve the same skill credit cost and xp requirments.. if they are ment to be useless why bother with advanced proffesions to em?
Im baffled by SOE's take on this and im sorry half the combat classes in the game has so completly been tossed away. Holocron is supposed to be one of the most experienced and capable MMORPG designers in the buisness?!.. i used to think that Ken Karl of Asherons Call 1 and 2 made some bad calls.. but Holo seems to be makeing an effort to catch up 