Tailor Archive
Thread: Annoyed by those who Grind to Master!
Azyre wrote:
I can totally understand your frustration, however, because someone grinds to master doesn't mean they are ignorant. I think it is wrong to pressure YOU to do that if you don't wish to, but its equally wrong on your part to consign all grinders to the same folder...of being ignorant.
I worked hard to make master tailor. I believe I was the second to make master on Wanderhome and I was WEEKS behind the first. I tried hard not to grind, but then realized that I was not being very smart. It is not the player's fault that using components in higher level items yields NO experience. I recall working a straight EIGHT hours on items for customized orders. I had ten folks in my shop...and I was diligently turning out clothing for folks. At the end of the night I looked at my experience and I had made 800 experience.
I turned to my husband and I said...uhmm...I can't do it this way...it will take me a life time. So I went the way all of us go, eventually...I grinded to Master. Why? I got sick of saying I can't make that yet or I don't have that color, or soon I'll be able to...I promise. There weren't enough tailors at that time and everyone was over worked...and to some extent...underpaid.
Until they make it REASONABLE for folks NOT to grind. Until you can sit down, make the orders you need to make, fill up your vendors with QUALITY items, folks are going to grind. You get no experience...well next to none...for running components in your factory and you get NO experience for using those components in your items. You are FORCED to use them by the schematic...the factory made items...and so making higher level items yields less experience than making ribbed shirts and linksteel gloves. Yes, you can also make cloaks and get better experience, but it costs too much because of the hides. Anyway...talk to the devs...its THEIR fault folks grind.
Try not to get mad at folks because they do grind. I'm not ignorant because I grinded to master. All my customers will tell you that I'm VERY good at my job and when they leave they look good....and I've never gone to another tailor to ask questions...THEY come to me.
Bridget Sara
Wanderhome
could've have said it better myself 
i grinded. as many pointed out, it's a personal choice, and i chose to grind. every time i get a level, i take the time out to make all the new items, and (use to) put them on display (until i hit the house item limit patch). there are already enough masters on ahazi, and i would like to offer the complete selection to my customers and friends. they took out most of factory xp (which i didn't get much of anyway), and i really can't sell that much of my stuff (due to the number of masters already on this server), so i ran missions, harvested/picked up material, and started up my 6 crafting tools.
i'm not ashame of grinding, since it's still work that i had to put in myself. if you have a problem with the masters that grind on your server asking you questions, i suggest that you have a chat with them. a lot of us that grind do have the product knowledge (heck, i station in my shop about 6 hrs a dayfilling custom orders or restocking vendors, i have a better relationship with my tools than my in game husband/ rl boyfriend 
I also wanted to echo some thoughts.
Grinding isnt all that bad.
If you came into Novice tailoring with a stack of money and resources, and grinded your butt from novice to master without building a customer base or creating all the different annoying varietys of outfits customers want, then yeah you're one unskilled master.
I suspect many, like me, did the grind when it suited them. I grinded items when customers were standing there trying to decide between black and black. I grinded items when i waited on shuttles. I grinded items when i hung out with my friends in the cantinas and in their houses.
Maybe grinding burns some people out. The act of crafting was never the lure for me, personally i think crafting itself is boring as sin. However running a successful business, making people happy, making tons of credits...that brings me joy. So when i ran out of boxes to fill, the hunt was over, and since i was never in it for the 'xp hunt' that didnt bring the game down for me.
And i also have to echo the thoughts on underpricing and undercutting...I'm serious, people dont by clothing based on cost. Maybe some people do. Add them together and maybe you can pay the maintenance on a power generator once a week. People want soft value...customer interaction, the feeling that they're special, the feeling that it was made just for them, the feeling that they're wearing something Master Tailor Jinna or Master Tailor Katima or Master Tailor Camo made for them. They like to be able to tell people who ask 'Yeah, this really cool tailor named Jinna made this for me, she's a sweetheart and is a master tailor.' Not 'well bob made this for me, he's not a master tailor he cant make everything but he's really cheap.'
I've watched with interest the things that have happened on Naboo with 4 masters frequenting Theed. It cracks me up. You could have all agreed to fix your prices, and instead i've watched competition destroy the market there.
My prices havent changed in 5 weeks. Have i noticed a drop in sales? yeah. Am i worried about it? not really. People will buy clothes, and if they dont then they dont. As the guy who wrote the tailoring guide from beta said - I'd rather sell 1 item at 10x the cost than bust my ass trying to sell 10 items to make the same dime.
And my final thoughts, while im rambling. The mission nerf hurt at first, but believe me. I have 2 accounts on naritus, i have a combat based alt. I can make 20k an hour solo EASILY with no work, and could make way more than that if i busted my ass doing it. Money is still easy as hell to come by. Unless you underprice your talents hoping you will get more customers.
I'm in much the same position as Kemal: what really interested me initially was the challenge of creating a viable business, and armoursmith certainly wasn't cutting it...*grins* And similarly, I was grinding when I wasn't doing something else; there was no particular lure for me in making it through all the boxes faster than anyone else in town, and that still isn't where the satisfaction lies for me, now that I've finally done it. Of course, this isn't the case for everyone -- and it shouldn't be.
Personally, it would absolutely have burned me out to spend all my time grinding; it was what I did while waiting for shuttles, or during lulls in the cantina atmosphere -- since that was where I initially spent the majority of my time (excellent way to get to know folks, which is a lot of what this business is about, for me). Was there any harm in this? Really, I don't think so. I got to know colours and outfit combinations very well, since I was making garments for customers consistently; I also got to know the market...at least as well, I think, as folks who didn't grind at all. After all, with business as the focus, it was of utmost importance that I keep track of trends and market gaps -- and it still is! *g*
We've been lucky on Scylla though, as far as prices go; there's a range of them, yes, but I don't see the Master Tailors purposely undercutting each other, which is good news for all of us. And the folks moving through Novice at the moment are some of the nicest I've met on the planet.
I didn't need to grind more than about 5 boxes, because I had built up a reputation and group of steady customers. But they also wanted the Master items, and near the end, I just used cartridge belts to finish off the last boxes, because I got sick of telling people "No, I can't make that yet".
I don't care how anyone else got/gets to Master, or what they charge for their items. It just doesn't affect me. I price items according to what I feel is fair, and my customers seem quite happy to pay my prices. I'd rather sell fewer items at a reasonable price than sell a ton of stuff at Walmart prices, because my time is too valuable for me to become an assembly line of bargain junk.
I'd suggest not worrying about the Masters who ask you questions, just tell them, "Sorry, I can't help you". When people used to ask me, "Are you a Master yet", I'd just say, "Nope", and that would be that. Putting your frustration on people who have done nothing to hurt you won't help things any, it just passes along the negativity.
My sales have gone down steadily in recent weeks, but I doubt reducing prices would do anything but reduce my profits even further. The cause of slower sales is easy: most of my best customers already have a dozen outfits from me. Even if they wanted more, there's not much else for them to buy, and they wouldn't have any storage space to keep it!
I warn new tailors that a rough road is ahead of them. Tailoring is extremely boring when you're not helping a friendly customer. The number of customers is constantly going down, as more people are "completing" their wardrobe than are entering the game as new players. Many players come to me for Novice and even Artisan level items, which means newer tailors are almost required to grind to advance, and even when they do, they will likely have a hard time finding customers, as it seems to me that a Tailor's customers are especially faithful. I've had people apologize for buying one item from another tailor, even though they had bought dozens from me...
Tailors have enough problems built into the class without us making our playtime worse through in-fighting and back-biting. Ignore the people who bother you, do what gives you the greatest enjoyment out of the game, and save your frustration for the people who can do something about it: The Devs.
PS: Who won that Dance Contest? I owe them a free outfit.
ive noticed most of the grind-to-the-top professionals have quit. why? they were bored. they were far more interested in being ''uber'' than performing their job. have you actually tried to grind? its got to be the MOST boring thing you can do with your monthly fee. if they want to, i say let them. We know who the real masters are, trust me. Just because they can access every recipe does not mean they can use them well. Take weaponsmiths, for example. Ive seen the same weapon produced by myriad ''masters'' and only one actually knew how to make it WELL. His weapon turned out better, stronger, faster (hums tune to bionic man) and guess who gets my repeat business? Not the grinder with no real skills.
grinding doesn't bother me as much as macroing though. Macros need to be yanked. At least grinders had to endure the boredom of what they chose to do. macroers go on holiday and come back with inventories full of resources, huge entertaining skill exp, and more. Kind of lame if you ask me that its been allowed thus far.
It doesn't help that a lot of the more popular items are bugged and don't give Tailoring XP. 
Sometimes you HAVE to grind to make up for the lost time making people things they want, that don't help you at all.
I did the grind to make my valued customers whom i usually love to serve (Ask pappi about some of the stories I tell her) happy. I get so many compliments and tips on top of the price of my more expensive items. People like me so much they bring me stacks of thousands of hides and put them on my vendor at 1cr just to help me along. In fact, that's one reason I was able to grind. My customers liked me and tried their best to help me out so they could get what they want faster while still supporting me instead of going somewhere else.
I have literally filled an entire box in a day just because a really good customer wanted some special items from it.That particular customer doesn't know I did it but was so sincerely thankful to get theirclothing from me. How can i feel guilty or wrong about that?
I started as a tailor from day one, and have but one skill left, myself, to mastery. At any given time, you can hit control-v and check the global map for Naboo, on Tarquinas, and see a dozen tailors who have set up shop, particularly around Theed and Kaadara. The sad part is, most of them are masters, and most of them came to me for training at least once, or asked me about stat enhancements, or where to get some sort of hide... It's incredibly discouraging.
It seems at every step as a tailor you cannot make what people ask you for. When I was a novice, people wanted synthetic cloth; when I could make synthetic cloth they wanted reinforced fiber panels; when I could finally make those they wanted dusters and bustiers. For any tailor dedicated to the craft, who refuses to grind it out, this can be very disheartening. My original customers got tired of waiting and went to the fly by night powercrafters, visiting my shop on occasion, wearing items I didn't even recognize until later. I remember one evening, when a dedicated customer of my shop was happily telling other people in a cantina about it, and the other tailor she regularly purchased from threw a fit and called her un-loyal. What was worse, this other tailor cried about spending hours clicking combine and spending hundreds of thousands of credits to get her skill.
Non masters, non powercrafters, and new crafters - seem destined to fail. This last blow, master items at 1-2k, sent several of our best tailors to other professions.
So why keep tailoring? Well, it's fun. I like designing my clothing and even though I know it isn't unique, it feels like it is. Setting up my shop and clothing displays has been the most amazing thing I've ever been privy to in a game like this. Yes, I threw my BE tissues out the window in disgust some time ago, and yes, I used to grind my teeth with the repeating "can you make xxx yet?" "can you make xxx in xxx color?""when will you be able to make xxx?" "so-and-so is selling it cheaper and has more colors".
I like fitting out newbies with clothing. I like making necklaces that match their outfits and giving them as a gift with their new clothing, and watching the reaction. "OH this is beautiful!" I like hearing how nice my shop is, dressing my vendors, and by all that's holy, roleplaying a tailor with any customer in my shop. That's why I keep logging in.
But yes, some days, well... That golden title eludes me and I wish for a moment that I had it, too.
You're right.. I'm a new tailor and I am grinding my way to master.
Why? Because I don't want to spend day after day saying no I can't make that yet.. no sorry you'll have to go elsewhere. I am 3 boxes from Master and have just set up a vendor yesterday.
Do I know everything there is to know about what to wear with what? nope.
Do I think I'm ready to tell people what they should buy or what would look good on them? nope.
But will I, like you, learn from trial and error.. will time and experience bring me to a point where I CAN do these things.. ? YES
You are no better than me for taking your time, no more than *I* will be better than you for reaching master first.
I would never look down my nose at you and say how silly it is to run around making "newbie" clothes when you could be making the really good stuff. What right do you have to say anything about me? and YES you are saying something about me because I am exactly the type of person you were describing..
I wonder how many people are just as annoyed with your low prices and attitude as you are with their quick success? I also wonder just how much time you've spent speaking to these droves of people you complain about, before assuming they are all no-brainers.
Sure, we may do things differently than you.. everyone plays the game their own way. Yes we may not know as much as you do ..YET but that doesn't mean we won't. People's priorities are different and I suspect many would like to be able to cover all areas of their customers needs rather than knowing a small portion of it inside and out. You may know what every single "newbie" shirt looks well with every type of "newbie" pants.. but where are they gonna go when they want the good stuff?
Try to see farther than the end of your own nose, spend less time worrying about everyone else and more time wondering why what everyone else does bothers you so much.. and it will work out better for everyone.
complain.. complain.. complain..
Wah!!
How is grinding a problem with you? Should everyone not grind? Maybe we should all just go at the same pace as you - that is what you're complaining about right?
Bah - what was the point in even responding to this thread.. its a totally irrelevant issue for us every-day tailors...
I'm in it for 1) the money, and 2) the people. So other tailors miff you because they are masters? Live with it..
Next thread..
So I guess I am a grinder (with extra resources), but not a power grinder.
I also feel additional pressure because there are two other tailors in my town, and both live next door to me.
I'm not annoyed by all masters that grind, just those who don't bother to learn their craft then ask me stupid questions, that they should have taken the time to learn on their own. Or at the least gone to the forums and learned. I get alot of this because my Tailor is rather well known on the server. People have been assuming my character's a Master Tailor for months now.
As for prices. I'm not underselling myself. I'm still making a profit on my clothes. I have 1 large house, and 1 medium house, 1 factory, and 2 medium harvestors that I support. (The 2 harvestors are on someone else's lots, but I maintain them). I still manage to support all this fine on the income I make. So don't complain to me that I'm underselling myself or trying to cheat other Tailors. I end up having to buy alot of my power from the bazaar and still I do okay with my prices. The point I was making is that I get people complaining to me that I'm selling things to cheap, they yell at me about expenses...etc... Those who don't grind have a lower expense ratio, and so can offer lower prices, it's as simple as that. Grinding to master you throw alot of wasted money into your harvestors, and resources that are just burned in the practice. Therefore you end up with higher costs later to make up for the money spent during the grind. Then they complain that I can offer lower prices.
However people brought up another point. On our server there are atleast 4 Master Tailors in Theed. In general you have an idea of who is a tailor in your area, by what's being sold on the bazaar by who. It's one way I monitored how other tailors were doing, and trying to keep my business where there wasn't abunch of other tailors. However with the instant Master Tailors you suddenly have them coming in and taking over your customers. I've lost so many customers because all of the sudden instant master tailor set up a shop, right next to mine. I've even had/heard them tell customers of minethat why go to me, when they can make better items.
I'm not saying that everyone does this, but I've seen it happening more and more. The ones I see it happening with the most is those who just grinded to Master. Because they don't have an established customer base they have to steal other people's customers.
I want decay in the game, but maybe if they keep it out for several more months and the there are no more sales the flocks of people who became Tailors for the wealth and finding there is no wealth in Tailoring will leave. I tell people often enough that Tailors are not Rich. I don't see that they should be. If your trying to make it rich as a Tailor, your in the wrong field, go into weaponsmithing or armorcrafting, you'll make far more money.
Anneke Rose (Tailor on Naritus)
I don't remember who won the dance contest. I think it was a Jaliha or something like that.