Tailor Archive
Thread: Annoyed by those who Grind to Master!
LWRN wrote:
There is and will always be someone somewhere who is better.
That would be me.
I'm still a novice tailor, and I've got a very good rep around the badlands of Tatooine (Anchorhead and Bestine). In fact over the last 2 weeks, at least 4 masters have popped in the same area, 3 of which moved stores into the area. You know what? It hasn't hurt my business at all. I don't know their prices, their service, their grinding methods, or their shop (if they have one) layout. Frankley I don't care. I am an accomplished tailor who advertises, offers politness (and shrewdness when doing a custom fitting), and I charge for it. Many of my higher level items are around 10-12cpu. If it sells, and my customers are happy, then I am happy. If it doesn't sell, I lower the price or stop making the item.
As far as grinding, people can do what they want. I'm about a 80/20 (the 20 being the grinding). Personally I feel had I grinded more I would have regretted missing getting to work and try out all the clothes. So thankfully, I've taken the patient road. Let the masters sell the flightsuits to their hearts content. Let them walk into a starport with the title and get bombarded for 2 hours straight with overwhelming tells and orders. We've all been there. Lot's of money yes, I'll go out on a limb and say that when you're getting tells from 3-4 customers at a time, with more people around asking questions, while you've got your tailoring box open, and can't even see them, that you're not providing the best service possible.
It's not a knock on masters at all. If that's what you love about the game, more power to you. To me, I'd rather not spend my 4 hours a day of playtime looking at a tailoring crafting screen. Someday I'll make master, and I'm sure my pocketbook will thank me, but for now, I'm taking the road called "Patience". I'm pacing myself. In fact, I've chosen to save Fieldwear 4 to be my very last box. I don't want to make black dusters all day, and camo pants all night. I'd rather dress people so they look different and unique.
Again, this isn't a knock on masters or grinders, or anyone. This is just the way I do things. Do your things however you want. Doesn't bother me.
Bah. If you're already a master I find it highly unlikely that you made it as a wandering, happy-go-lucky tailor traipsing about and selling your wares to newbies. You may have done that but I'd be willing to bet money that there was at least some amount of grinding that went into it. Either that or you used the factory XP trick or something. There just hasn't been enough time for you to make Master by custom-making outfits and selling them.
Again, that's just my opinion, it could be totally wrong but that's what I think based on my own experiences.
You don't have to grind all the way to master, and I would imagine most people who do some grinding don't grind all the way.Nor does grinding mean you don't know the profession or your product. I financed myself on the march tomaster by selling clothing on the bazaar and in towns; when I had extra cash that wasn't going towards acquiring basic materials for making items to sell or to power and maintain my harvesters, I'd buy extra materials and grind until I ran out of money to buy materials to grind with (which usually meant I was grinding for an hour or so at a time; like most novice tailors, I was hardly rich). As a result I made master in about a month to six weeks (I started playing the day the game came out) and I was probably among the first dozen or so master tailors on my server. Butwhen I got there, I had past customers clamoringfor clothes and new ones coming out the woodwork. And I've done fine ever since, even though I did the "G" word part of the time I was mastering the profession.
Grinding is a perfectly legitimate way to speed the trip to master; the only times it probably produces a bad master tailor is when the grinder did it to the exclusion of all other activities in the profession (selling, fitting, experimenting with looks, dealing with customers, etc.). That's also true of bad entertainers and others who rely excessively on shortcuts in the game. But if the shortcuts are there, it's no blame to those who make some use of them. If you choose not to, that's fine, but you need to be selective and precise in your criticism of those who do use them.Not everyone who does some grinding, or even a lot of it, is a hack.
Anyway, in my experience, the best tailors are those who have things that they'd have regardless of how they got to master, or how fast they got there: a good eye for color, a sense of style, an enthusiasm for working with people to make them look good (that goes beyond how much you think you can make out of them), patience, and courtesy. Some people who never grind will never have these talents, and some who do grind will have them in abundance. They can't be taught; you either got 'em or you don't. If you do and it sounds as though you do, you have nothing to fear from the hacks.
Ok lets put this into action.
Burger King: Excuse me, McDonalds? We're really sick of having to improve our fries to compete with yours. Would you stop making your fries better for a little bit longer so that we can catch up and make our fries as good as yours so we get customers too?
McDonalds: BWAHAHHAHAHAHH!
I admit I "did the grind" through portions of my last three ranks in tailoring and for some experience here or there throughout the process. Frankly, I got really sick and tired of getting the "I need that flightsuit and this leotard," followed 30 minutes later by, "did you make them yet when can you have them done are you master yet?"
I offer the same one-on-one service that any other tailor does and I don't charge 45 credits per resource for it. Just because some people speed their way through parts of stuff, it doesn't mean they are poor at their craft 
I was paid the most unintentional complement the other day... while I was running down my usual list of questions as to what this customer might be looking for in an outfit, he stops and says "Wow, this is just like going to see a real tailor."
I can totally understand your frustration, however, because someone grinds to master doesn't mean they are ignorant. I think it is wrong to pressure YOU to do that if you don't wish to, but its equally wrong on your part to consign all grinders to the same folder...of being ignorant.
I worked hard to make master tailor. I believe I was the second to make master on Wanderhome and I was WEEKS behind the first. I tried hard not to grind, but then realized that I was not being very smart. It is not the player's fault that using components in higher level items yields NO experience. I recall working a straight EIGHT hours on items for customized orders. I had ten folks in my shop...and I was diligently turning out clothing for folks. At the end of the night I looked at my experience and I had made 800 experience.
I turned to my husband and I said...uhmm...I can't do it this way...it will take me a life time. So I went the way all of us go, eventually...I grinded to Master. Why? I got sick of saying I can't make that yet or I don't have that color, or soon I'll be able to...I promise. There weren't enough tailors at that time and everyone was over worked...and to some extent...underpaid.
Until they make it REASONABLE for folks NOT to grind. Until you can sit down, make the orders you need to make, fill up your vendors with QUALITY items, folks are going to grind. You get no experience...well next to none...for running components in your factory and you get NO experience for using those components in your items. You are FORCED to use them by the schematic...the factory made items...and so making higher level items yields less experience than making ribbed shirts and linksteel gloves. Yes, you can also make cloaks and get better experience, but it costs too much because of the hides. Anyway...talk to the devs...its THEIR fault folks grind.
Try not to get mad at folks because they do grind. I'm not ignorant because I grinded to master. All my customers will tell you that I'm VERY good at my job and when they leave they look good....and I've never gone to another tailor to ask questions...THEY come to me.
Bridget Sara
Wanderhome
Hey Anneke, I feel your pain.
I've been playing since the first day, and I've just made master now, with virtually no grinding (although the full-xp factory bug helped). This game, and especially Tailoring, the one "creative" class, is not about competition.
Thing is, Anneke, you're not going to lose your customers. Although there were plenty of other masters before me, I NEVER had a business lull because I have good taste, and do my job well. I have many, many loyal customers from all walks of life that have gone to me when they could have EASILY gone to someone more skilled, because they trust me to make them look good.
You do too, I've seen your stuff. It's wonderful. This is the important thing for tailors. A NOVICE tailor can do as well as a Master Tailor if they have a good eye for color and fashion.Many many tailors don't, and that's where people like you shine.
If I didn't make my own clothes, I'd buy yours too...
BTW, it was nice to finally meet you in game at the dance contest the other day
-Ave Acheko, Naritus, Corellia, Tyrena
Bah. If you're already a master I find it highly unlikely that you made it as a wandering, happy-go-lucky tailor traipsing about and selling your wares to newbies. You may have done that but I'd be willing to bet money that there was at least some amount of grinding that went into it. Either that or you used the factory XP trick or something. There just hasn't been enough time for you to make Master by custom-making outfits and selling them.
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This is patently untrue. At my shop, just filling my vendor and filling special orders (lots and lots of them) I easily made at least 20k xp a day. Just having a popular shop and good advertising will get you there. Being a wandering tailor wil not. I also work full time, and didn't play every day either. 2 boxes from master, i ground maybe 75k xp. I was impatient. That was a week and a half ago. Had I not ground, I'd be a Master Tailor now anyway.
Even the factory bug didn't rocket most of us to the top. I had ONE factory, didn't KNOW it was possible to get mega-xp from it until it was "fixed". I think I got possibly 8k xp per day from it for a week before the system was "fixed". I'd say most factory owners had a similar experience.
Right now, many tailors who have played since day one should be hitting master, if they made a LOT of stuff and sold a lot. It's totally possible to be crafting non-stop for actual people, instead of grinding.
-ave
so you're annoyed because of what other people do ? how is that your business ? if they dont know their product line, so what ? that should bring a little smile to your face.
you underprice ? wont that annoy them ? so now you are annoyed and they are annoyed. good work
Does it count as grinding if I did it while I was running between cities working my harvesters?
I spent the majority of my early tailor career selling power, and I sell power today more than I sell anything else but I'm a master tailor and I did it for fun
I beg to differ with the person that said that all you need is a popular shop. *MY* shop, while I lived on Corellia was frequented by over a hundred folks a day, most days. It was VERY popular...and on a day where I crafted non-stop for folks...I made 800 experience. It was all higher level items...well...items on the second tier of tailoring, at least...and I still made 800 experience. It was THAT day that made me close my doors and grind to master. It was disheartening, it was upsetting and it was a revelation. No one cares HOW you get to a particular point, only that you do so you can make them the items they want.
That said...the tailors who grind are not the folks to be annoyed with. Its the devs who made it close to IMPOSSIBLE to get to master without grinding. You can stand on your high grounds and talk about how you never grind and that sort of thing, but that is totally your choice. I don't have the patience for it. I play the game for fun and wanted to get on with it. Not only that but if you are annoyed at folks who grind, then you are no better than those who get annoyed with you for not grinding.
And...btw...underselling other tailors, in my opinion, is one of the absolute worst things you can do...it far exceeds the sin you think other tailors commit when they grind. You are selling items for under their value, that higher level tailors can't match just by the fact that they HAVE to maintain a factory, a house, harvesters and everything else. Underselling is wrong...just flat wrong. You hurt the economy of your server...or add to problems with econmy by doing that. Do you think for a second that the armorsmith you sell your cloth to at a cheap price, is going to turn around and give that bonus to his customer. Not likely. All you did was sell yourself short and your fellow tailors. When that same armorsmith goes to another tailor, he's going to say...well so and so sold it to me for this much...why are you selling it for this? And he gets rich, you get poorer and you've hurt your whole profession. Sorry...not much sympathy from me.
You don't want to grind, that's your business. Don't. However...there's no high ground in that. Particularly if you are undercutting the other tailors on your server...in fact...I'd view that as more than a little spite. It hasn't gotten you far, and that's why you've come to these boards to complain. You may well be an excellent tailor with great knowledge, but you can't assume that tailors who did grind don't have that same knowledge.
Bridget Sara
Wanderhome
I grind at the end of the night with my extra resources. I don't think it is a frowned upon no-no like AFK Macroing that the dancers now do to get to master. They aren't even at their computers. At least when we grind, we are using our own resources and at the computer. We just aren't selling the items.
I wasn't going to grind at all, but it is nearly impossible not to. Especially when you are just a novice and you have 10 people a day asking you for cloaks.
That said, I don't know who would be crazy enough to grind their way to master tailor in one weekend. I already have a pinched nerve in my shoulder. I just can't imagine the carpel tunnel syndrome they would have.
I also think it is a bigger sin to undercut the other tailors by a lot of credits than it is to grind your way to master.