Tailor Archive
Thread: Tailor Price Calculator
Ok I tried to resist and be quiet about this but I just couldnt. You people that charge 1 credit per resource, etc -- why? Other professions don't. They charge a lot for their items, and the time to make them. Do you think they should charge 1 credit per also? Or do you see tailoring as just silly and not "useful" because it isn't (usually) so directly combat-related? In this case -- did you play a lot of EQ (I did that's why I'm curious)? Just wondering.
Some of us don't want to be miners forever. Yes I can run harvesters too. Do I want to spend my time babysitting these, ensuring I have enough power, etc? No. I'm a tailor because I like to make clothing. If I wanted to mine, well, I would be a miner. I have never seen resources less than 3 per on the bazaar, and many are much more expensive than that (even basic steel). Special resources are much more, *if* they are even available.
I sell basically nothing without sockets, and when I'm making an enhanced item (yes I explain the bug first), people still want guarantee of socket numbers, causing me to often remake an item several times, using an expensive bio component each time. This adds to costs (and difficulty of keeping supplies around) dramatically.
Someone please explain this give-away pricing to me...
this reminds me of all the questions on why do you only charge x amount over cost in jewelry etc in EQ because smiths and tailors were charging y.
Well, first off the stuff other classes make is in a great amount of demand. While clothes are in demand, they aren't in as much demand as weapons and armor are. They also don't have to be replaced unless someone wants to change colors.
A weaponsmith can charge 20k for a rarer weapon and people will pay for it because they want the weapon, they don't want the weaponsmith to sell out of the weapon and have the resource poof and not be able to get it in a week.
Its not that way for tailors. We have few items that if resources shifted we may no longer be able to buy. Thus you can buy your exoctic leotard today or a week later and a tailor will still have it.
You can think charging 1 cr for resources is ridiculous and you may not like running out to babysit harvesters. On the other hand, I like running my harvesters, think that charging 10cr for hide/bone is insane, and charge in the 2-3cr range for resources used.
Why should it bother me that your selling your clothing higher then I am, and why should I care why? Thats your business practice, this is mine. You pay more per resource for convience, I do more leg work for a cheaper resource cost.
Those are the things you have to take into consideration when running a business. There is always someone willing to do just as much if not more work at less profit to them then you are. But the other thing you have to remember is that cost of an item isn't the only driving force behind why people shop where they do. Convience, familiarty, service, quality, and personality also play a huge part.
The idea that just because you can price something at a certain level and people will pay for it that everyone should be pricing that high (or even that you should) will not hold up, as more and more people can make that item, there will be alternatives to your price.
Just because I could sell bustiers at 2500 credits doesn't mean that I feel its right to sell them at that price. That doesn't preclude someone else from selling them at 2500 credits and feeling thats the correct price for them.
Fawe
Flurry
Fawe (and others) --
So it does seem to me that you see tailoring as less valuable. Fortunately a lot of people don't. In a game with nothing but combat, it might be. Fortunately for some of us, there are other things to do besides combat. The fact that it isn't a weapon really doesn't make it less valuable, unless what you wanted to buy was a weapon. This is the same line or reasoning that has houses going for 5k and weapons for 20k.
One of the problems in game is that there are not enough ways to differentiate our product. If we both become master tailors, we can both make 4 socket items. We can make absolutely identical items. You can't even really pay for a "brand name" (though I'm hoping to get some name recognition like this in game). I can differentiate on service, guarantee 4 sockets, make just what you want and bring it to you, add specific bio components, all kinds of stuff. In game though, nothing stops you from giving the same away for essentially free, if you *really* like running all over for nothing, or doing the same work for less profit, as you put it.
The analogy to an RL business really doesn't hold up at all. There you can easily price yourself out of business on the low end *or* the high end, as without making a profit you cant afford to run the business, eat, have transportation,a place to live, etc. In game this is not the case as you can just run a few missions here and there to get buy.
For example, if someone in RL paid me $400 to walk down the street and deliver a letter as often as I wanted, I imagine there would be a lot more mail carriers, and fewer clothing stores. In game though, you can do just that. Does it affect others? Yes. The game world and economy are much smaller, so if 10 people on a server decide to basically give everything away, running missions to fund themselves and doing the "not in demand" tailoring for a hobby, it does have an effect on others.
As for not being in demand, well that actually can be measured to a degree by what people are willing to pay. If people will gladly pay 4k for a duster, how can you say that the item is not in demand? It seems to me that the opposite is true, it *IS* in demand, as evidenced by the fact that people are willing to pay 4k for it.
Something else I wondered -- do you actually live on your tailoring income? Or do you just run missions as I suggested above? IF you live on your tailoring income, pricing at 1 credit per, do you sell a large volume, or do custom orders? It seems hard to believe you could support much of anything beyond a few small harvesters when you consider power and maintenance, cost of pulling harvesters up especially if they are not the personal disposable type, factory upkeep, possibly a shop, not to mention any travel to sell items.
I guess I'm still having a hard time understanding the -- 'I want to mine and tailor a few things that I dont consider very valuable in order to sell them for almost nothing' philosophy.
-- Izzie
Wow why don't you try re-reading my post and then actually re-reading it again as I did't say anything that resembled that.
I said that tailored items are not in AS MUCH demand as weapons and armor. Yes, tailored items have a demand, but in comparison to other items in the game there is LESS demand for tailored items.
Also, since clothes a) do not degrade and b) do not take hardly any rare/shifting resources in comparision to armorsmithing or weaponsmithing there is no rush for people to buy our items except for their demand for them because even if you sell all out of dusters, you can easily turn around and make more dusters. Where a weaponsmith could sell all out of x weapon, the resource has been depleted, and thus you can't make that weapon anymore and then your weapon breaks and you need to replace it (you buy one exotic leotrard as is its yours forever!).
Further more, many of the clothes are interchangable, where weapons and armor are not so (due to stats).
I never said I saw tailoring as less valuable, instead, I realize that as is the market for tailoring is MUCH different then the market for weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, food, etc.. and trying to compare and complain that other tailors don't charge as much asthese guys do isn't fair. We don't have some of the obsticles that these guys run into, we have less cost then these guys do, and thus I price accordingly to MY costs and MY time.
Currently as is, clothes serve no more purpose then decoration, where armor and weapons do servemore of a purpose.Hopefully this will change as things get fixed and skill mods and BE items actually work, but until then our marketisnot what the weaponsmith/armorsmith market is. There market is about NEED ours is about WANT and if a personhas to make a decision between spending 6k on a duster and spending 6k on a gunmost likely they are going to buy that gun first (Thus back to my original statement that you didn't seem to get taht thedemand for armor and guns is GREATER then clothes).
Your absolutely right, there is nothing from stopping anyone in this game from giving things away for free, or for less cost etc.. and just like in real life nothing stopspeople from doing that as well (andpeople do).
Actaully, the comparison to real life is very appropriate. If someone paid you $400 to walk down the street as often as you wanted, you may or may not take it. It depends on what your alternatives are. You might get paid $400 to walk down the street and I might get paid $500 to play a game. Its all about opportunity and choice.
I actually do live off my tailoring. But then again, I don't play the game to see who can rack up the most money in their coffers. As long as my needs are covered and I have extra to get some wants I am happy.
Sure I run missions, I may run them when I go check my harvesters etc.. plus they are a good way to get pistol/combat exp when I am not in a group. Do I run missions constantly when I am on. Nope, I'm to busy doing other things like making contacts, traveling, tailoring etc..
I do alot of custom orders and I sell a number of things on my vendor. I have made enough money to cover my start up costs and invest in some medium harvesters/solars, a factory, and am working on a larger property.
I am also in a PA that doesn't belive in price gouging just because we COULD get a price for a product. We make quality products and price them to what we see as a fair and competatitve price.
Just because someone will pay a max 6k for a duster doesn't mean that the merchant needs to sell it at the max price to soak every penny they can out of the consumer. But then again, I don't feel nervous explaining my pricing to my consumers at all because I feel its a fair price. All crafters should sell their wares at what they think is a fair price, and if another crafter doesn't like it, well call it a difference of opinion and leave it at that.
Stop trying to compare our market to that of the weaponsmiths and armorsmiths of now as its a lousy comparison. Not only do they sell different products, but they do so under a different set of circumstances that we as tailors don't even have to put up with.
Fawe
Well, I read your post a couple of times before I posted anything. Not seeing a big problem with what I posted. I'm sure you will, and after reading your opening paragraph I'm really starting to not care too much anyway. I can hope you're not on my server I guess, or that you get tired of doing all that hard work to give things away.
What purpose do armor and weapons serve? They let you fight things, of course. There is no more innate purpose to this than there is to buying clothes for decoration and hanging out in the cantina. It is only that many people have come to view combat as *the* important thing to do in games. Mainly I thnk this is because in most games (EQ, DAoC, AO, etc) there really wasn't anything much else to do. Decorations are a purpose unto themselves, every bit as important as a suit of armor. After all, if I'm going to the cantina to meet some friends, dance, and maybe do some gambling(to be released soon),why in the world do I need a suit of armor? I don't.
As far as making the items, yes in some ways the armor is more difficult, in some ways it is not. If you want a suit of chitin, I can make you a suit of chitin. Some experimenting maybe but they are basically all the same. Not so with tailored outfits. If I spend an hour with you getting just the outfit you want -- that is also work. As much as making armor? Over time, yes.
"Your absolutely right, there is nothing from stopping anyone in this game from giving things away for free, or for less cost etc.. and just like in real life nothing stopspeople from doing that as well (andpeople do)." (Fawes)
That is not true. Try opening a business in RL and giving everything away. See how long you have the business, food to eat, place to sleep, etc. You would very soon find yourself out on the street, unless you had substantial funding from another source.
And as for the $400 to walk down the street. Well, if someone paid me that whenever I wanted, or I could work for 10 times as long and make $40 making a coat, I don't think many people would make coats. A few already-wealthy ones, maybe.
"I actually do live off my tailoring. But then again, I don't play the game to see who can rack up the most money in their coffers. As long as my needs are covered and I have extra to get some wants I am happy." (Fawes)
Neither do I. Though I like to live comfortably, would like to get a vehicle when they come out, etc. I also don't sell for the absolute maximum possible, nor do I "gouge" anyone just because I place some value in what I make. You say you sell at what you see as a "fair and competitive price" 1/10th the going rate is not "competitive" nor does it even have anything to do with competition.
And yes, maybe it is different for armorsmiths and weaponsmiths -- they don't seem to have people giving away decent products for nothing and apparently happy to keep doing it.
you read my post a couple of times yet still insist I equate 1 credit per resource.
Let me repeat for you. I equate 2-3 credits per resource. That is 7x's my cost of running a wind generator, a solar generator, 3 medium harvesters, and 2 personal harvesters for the resources I pull out.
I chose a different path, I chose to collect my own resources so that I have less resource expense to pass on to my client. *shrug* you chose a different route to which you break even where I am already making a profit. Thus I may be able to offer my wares at a lower price because I don't have to start my mark up at 3 credits or 5 credits, but instead at a much lower number.
You know not everyone will get paid $400 to walk up and down the street, some may get $20 some may get $4000, again its all about what your choices and opportunities are. For some running missions may be more profitable, but for others it won't be. Thus making a $40 coat is more profitable then that $20 mission. Also, if you don't enjoy walking up and down the street but enjoy making the coat, you could decide to bypass the money and go for what you enjoy.. ahh once again choices.
What you forget about weapon/armor smiths is that they are so much more dependant on resources then we are at the moment. They cannot make items because resources are gone, and we really do not have much of that problem. They need to follow the better quality resources, thus having to pull up harvesters every shift, where I can leave my harvester to sit in the same spot for weeks on end because it doesn't matter if I have steel or copper or aluminum or if I ahve this fiberplast/polymer over this one. Perhaps when item decay on clothing sets in and we need to worry more about how high the quality of our resource is, then that will be taken into consideration in my price.
Perhaps on your server you think my prices are "1/10 the going rate" but I have shopped around myself, I talk to my customers about how they think my prices are in compared to others they have shopped. But, then again you have no idea what my prices are or what I take into consideration so your just making an assumption there.
This game is so full of depth and opportunity at many levels. There is more then one way to skin a cat and many ways to cut costs, bargain, and get where your going.
Fawe
Flurry
Zhevek-
Great job on the calculator. Let's hope that it helps to keep the in game economy on the right track.