Tailor Archive
Thread: *sigh* Watch for an influx of AS/Tailors
Tuanga wrote:
Or we'll just get our tailor friends/guildmates to make them for us... If you don't want to be poor, become an armor or weapon smith.
If you continue with your condescending attitude about tailors you will soon find that you don't have any tailor friends anymore and that your guildmates may not like you that much either.
Message Edited by Gyopi on 04-02-2004 11:19 AM
You have to put things into perspective here. Yes, some armorsmiths make huge amounts of money. They usually have a network of suppliers and support crafters. Tailors included. But for every super star AS there are a dozen that just do it for fun, pretty much like me. I got AS as a holo profession but found it so fun I never gave it up.
Many of you tend to judge other players by their profession and make assumptions based on misconceptions about what kind of people pursues certain professions.
I am strongly against this us versus them mentality, espescially at times when we should be happy for all the wookiees out there who actually are the ones this is all about.
I am also a tailor, I will not lie and say I did it primarily because I like to dress people up. I dont. I picked tailor for three reasons: Its convenient for me to make my own components,it was one step closer to that elusive fscs and I like to explore different aspects of this game.
That being said, I am all for more interdependecy between various professions, but most of all between different players, but I wanted to comment on a few things previously said in the thread. Allow me to elaborate:
1. The "rare" resources needed for the segments are the same as any armorsmith normally stockpiles. I cant see why an armorsmith would want to buy segments made from resources. And frankly, wouldnt it be more convenient for a tailor to just make the schematic and charge, say 1-5k per item in item count for it?(Depending on what suits of wookiee armor go for on your server.
That way the tailor gets a chunk of creds for the trouble (maybe 10 minutes of work.)The AS wont have to pay double for the resources since he provides them and the customers hopefully will get a lower price.
Also, no resource hunting and more factories to make stuff you actually need.
2. The segment is necessary for the final combine, yes, and that puts tailors in a good negotiating position. But for the end result of the armor, the experimentation on the segments is not as important as experimentation on the advanced segments. That is a fact, not something I made up to belittle Tailors.
I am not saying that tailors should not have the segments and I am not saying tailors dont know how to experiment. I am only saying that this is one part of the final product and when it comes to end results there are other aspects that actually are more important than whether you put 8, 10 or 12 points into this component.
3. As for dabbling and experimentation points, someone posted earlier that it is possible for an AS to get field wear 3, tailoring 4 and get 8 experimentation points, even 10 if you have skill tapes. That is correct and nothing we can do anything about. This is the eternal argument of whether dabbling is a good or bad thing in a new shape.
However, in order to get that the AS will have to spend 34 skill points into Tailor, and some armorsmiths will not "waste" those points just to get synth cloth, reinf fib panels and the wookiee segments with experimentation. Thats entirely up to each individual AS. I decided to go all the way and master Tailor.
Of course tailors should be able to profit from this opportunity, if that is what they want, without "dropping tailor and becoming an AS or WS". The segment was put into Tailor for a reason, but I do not believe that reason was to get Tailors and Armorsmiths to lunge for each others throats. Neither do I think the reason was to give the tailors the opportunity to get filthy rich, but rather to make players to interact with eachother and to impose some choices about where to put their skill points.
Now I will go back to my small house and play with my armors again
Regards,
knasboll wrote:
hmm I think you misinterpreted what I said. Please read again and ask yourself where I said tailors are worthless? I think you are a little worked up on the issue so I'll try to make myself as clear as I can.
You have to put things into perspective here. Yes, some armorsmiths make huge amounts of money. They usually have a network of suppliers and support crafters. Tailors included. But for every super star AS there are a dozen that just do it for fun, pretty much like me. I got AS as a holo profession but found it so fun I never gave it up.
Many of you tend to judge other players by their profession and make assumptions based on misconceptions about what kind of people pursues certain professions.
I am strongly against this us versus them mentality, espescially at times when we should be happy for all the wookiees out there who actually are the ones this is all about.
I am also a tailor, I will not lie and say I did it primarily because I like to dress people up. I dont. I picked tailor for three reasons: Its convenient for me to make my own components,it was one step closer to that elusive fscs and I like to explore different aspects of this game.
That being said, I am all for more interdependecy between various professions, but most of all between different players, but I wanted to comment on a few things previously said in the thread. Allow me to elaborate:
1. The "rare" resources needed for the segments are the same as any armorsmith normally stockpiles. I cant see why an armorsmith would want to buy segments made from resources. And frankly, wouldnt it be more convenient for a tailor to just make the schematic and charge, say 1-5k per item in item count for it?(Depending on what suits of wookiee armor go for on your server.
That way the tailor gets a chunk of creds for the trouble (maybe 10 minutes of work.)The AS wont have to pay double for the resources since he provides them and the customers hopefully will get a lower price.
Also, no resource hunting and more factories to make stuff you actually need.
OK. I've got some scout skills, and I often go and hunt high quality hides to sell to AS. I can't see why a scout would want to buy armor made from resources. And frankly, wouldn't it be more convenient for an AS to just make the schematic and charge, say 1-5k per item in item count for it?
That way the AS gets a chunk of creds for the trouble (maybe 10 mins of work.) The Scout won't have to pay double for the resources since he provides them. Also, no resource hunting and more factories to make stuff you actually need.
2. The segment is necessary for the final combine, yes, and that puts tailors in a good negotiating position. But for the end result of the armor, the experimentation on the segments is not as important as experimentation on the advanced segments. That is a fact, not something I made up to belittle Tailors.
I am not saying that tailors should not have the segments and I am not saying tailors dont know how to experiment. I am only saying that this is one part of the final product and when it comes to end results there are other aspects that actually are more important than whether you put 8, 10 or 12 points into this component.
And you assume we don't understand this, which is why you bring it up, or am I missing something?
3. As for dabbling and experimentation points, someone posted earlier that it is possible for an AS to get field wear 3, tailoring 4 and get 8 experimentation points, even 10 if you have skill tapes. That is correct and nothing we can do anything about. This is the eternal argument of whether dabbling is a good or bad thing in a new shape.
However, in order to get that the AS will have to spend 34 skill points into Tailor, and some armorsmiths will not "waste" those points just to get synth cloth, reinf fib panels and the wookiee segments with experimentation. Thats entirely up to each individual AS. I decided to go all the way and master Tailor.
Of course tailors should be able to profit from this opportunity, if that is what they want, without "dropping tailor and becoming an AS or WS". The segment was put into Tailor for a reason, but I do not believe that reason was to get Tailors and Armorsmiths to lunge for each others throats. Neither do I think the reason was to give the tailors the opportunity to get filthy rich, but rather to make players to interact with eachother and to impose some choices about where to put their skill points.
I highly doubt tailors will get "filthy rich" for charging *gasp* more than cost on these items.
Now I will go back to my small house and play with my armors again
Regards,
I'm guessing that you meant this as a joke. I don't think that anyone has asked for 5 million tomake a schematic of 1000 items. I have a horrble headache and I am probably missing somethig somewhere.
knasboll wrote:
If you can provide all resources needed for a run of layers, segments, and final products, yes I am willing to make you schematics for the stuff needed at 5k per item in item count. For a batch of composite youll need 1-3 schems for the layers, another schem for the segments and 9 schems for the actual pieces. 5k per item would mean 5-15 million just for the layers
Of course you will get to choose how to put my 10 points of experimentation. But you will only have 10 minutes to make up your mind.
Message Edited by Gyopi on 04-02-2004 04:06 PM
Why is this so then? I believe the short answer is that these professions provide functionality. Protection, weaponry and enhancements.
Most players accepts the notion that socializing doesnt cost money, but adventuring does. And that reinforces the gap between the "functional" professions and the not so functional ones.
Before the advent of BE clothing, clothes did not provide anything but looks if you compared them to armors and even with bio engineered clothes there isnt that much incentive to go for clothes only.
Granted, clothes do not have encumbrance but thanks to the buffs that is a minor concern for most adventuring folks.
Crafters need to put some crafting specific tapes into clothes, but since they are crafters and not adventurers their clothes wont wear down and thus tailors dont have the same turnover as armorsmiths and weaponsmiths do. Tailor stuff last longer.
My opinion is that we need to level out the functionality between clothing and armors. Give clothings some major advantages over armors and force players to make a choice between the two in a given situation.
Clothes and Armors do not need to, and should not, compete with eachother but rather complement eachother, pretty much as doctor buffs and chef food do.
Well, I was on my way to mAS/mTailor before wookie armor came along - I have fieldwear4 so far. Making armor makes cash, but it's a bore. I want more variety in color and design than armor offers.
Now, on the wookiee armor pads - I made my own pads with my pathetic tailor experimentation skills and my good armorsmith materials. They were not "uber", but (as has been posted) the pad quality doesn'tseem to have a noticeable impact on the final quality of the armor. And btw, I don't sell these suits for the ridiculous prices I see quoted here, nor do I sell ubese and comp armors at the ridiculous prices quoted on the AS boards.
I am aghast at all the interprofession animosity generated by some of the recent changes. Creature handlers and chefs hate BE's and vice versa. Now it's armorsmiths and tailors, sheesh! Can't we all just get along?
knasboll wrote:
You have to put things into perspective here. Yes, some armorsmiths make huge amounts of money. They usually have a network of suppliers and support crafters. Tailors included.
This is the whole point, why should armorsmiths need "support" crafters. I though AS took just as muchskill pointsand time to master as any other elite profession? It is simply another imbalance in the game mechanics. Sure we could just make you manufacture schematics, sure it takes us 10 minutes or less to make one, but what about the economy?That's one of the reasons tailors are getting their feathers ruffled, because they put just as much work into their profession as anyone else and get 1/10th payout of many other crafting professions.
Regards,
JBurns
"OK. I've got some scout skills, and I often go and hunt high quality hides to sell to AS. I can't see why a scout would want to buy armor made from resources. And frankly, wouldn't it be more convenient for an AS to just make the schematic and charge, say 1-5k per item in item count for it?
That way the AS gets a chunk of creds for the trouble (maybe 10 mins of work.) The Scout won't have to pay double for the resources since he provides them. Also, no resource hunting and more factories to make stuff you actually need."
"OK. I've got some scout skills, and I often go and hunt high quality hides to sell to AS. I can't see why a scout would want to buy armor made from resources. And frankly, wouldn't it be more convenient for an AS to just make the schematic and charge, say 1-5k per item in item count for it?
That way the AS gets a chunk of creds for the trouble (maybe 10 mins of work.) The Scout won't have to pay double for the resources since he provides them. Also, no resource hunting and more factories to make stuff you actually need."
Of course you will get to choose how to put my 10 points of experimentation. But you will only have 10 minutes to make up your mind.
For what its worth, I was trying to put things into perspective, each piece of the wookiee armor requires 1 tailor made segment. If a suit costs 80k for the end customer that would be 20k on average per piece. If a tailor was to charge 1k per padding without providing ther resources that would be one million for a few minutes of experimentation. Provided of course you could get an AS to bring you the amount of resources needed for a batch of 1000 segments.
As to freeing up factories, no not really, because I am making armors for a living anyway.
Were you to ask me to make you a batch of armor repair kits, I would be more hesistant to hunt resources and to use one of my factories for that. I think I could agree to make you a schematic for 5-10% of the schematics inherent going rate. That way I would make some creds and still be free to use my factories for what I really want: armors.
This is of course invalid if you as a tailor actually enjoy making stuff in crates for the fun of watching your factories churn out stuff and working as a suppport crafter rather than working on nice looking outfits, functional, sought after bio enhanced clothes etc.
The bottom line is this: Id rather make stuff I need to make my final products than some stuff that is part of my profession tree but not necessarily part of why I chose my profession.
I brought up the significance of the actual component compared to its relative experimental value just to point out that yes, tailors have a component that armorsmiths need, and no, experimentation is not the big issue. I have seen people say that they should be charging an arm and a leg for this stuff just because tailors are in a position to do so. Of course tailors are free to charge what they please, as are armorsmiths. But at the end of the road people will find other ways if they dont like it.
Guildmates doing it for free, armorsmiths picking up tailor (as the original post said) to name but a few.
I was not assuming anything, I just pointed out a few facts and moved on from there.
I was trying to distinguish between pricing based on demand and relative worth and pricing based on the sole notion you will actually get away with it.
And that brings me to the last of your highlights. I too, doubt that tailors will get filthy rich from this, just as most armorsmiths never get near that level of wealth either. I do however think tailors are entitled to their fair share of the cake. And so are the scouts, the miners and everyone else.
When the initial frenzy settles and things moves towards market equilibrium I hope tailors and armorsmiths will work together to bring forth the best products each server can manage.
Regards,
We all need to take a deep breath here and realize that we are supposed to be helping each other. I'm willing to try out these padded armour components and see how they work. As if any armoursmith is going to be making these in the future... get real.
The dev team has already said that this is the first type of armour available. Any armoursmith that has been around for awhile only makes two kinds of armour. Ubese and Advanced Composite. There is no point in making the others. It is not worth the time, as the rest are simply not functional in pvp nor pve combat. The next armour types that come out for wookies will be the ones that matter. I suspect that advanced armour padding will be in Fieldwear 4 or even the master box. You will see the top grade wookie armour being the defacto armour for wookies, and it will make them utter tanks and the kings of the battlefield.
In the EU, a wookie is the fierce combatant that instills fear when one is angered. Note: Never let one lose at chess because he will rip your arms off. With the best armour and weapons, you will see them stand toe to toe with anyone else.
So as the devs have implemented this idea, we better get used to the idea of Master Tailors having a closer affinity with armoursmiths that will be making this armour. Soon it will be Ubese, Advanced Composite and Wookie Battle Dress.
I will still be a tailor that makes items asa wanderer, rather than a shop-tailor and probably never really be a component saleswoman. I only have two factories, and don't want to use one or both to handle large-scale orders of these items, when I can use them for my own use. Money has never been the carrot I follow. I prefer to socialize and be with friends online. This will allow other tailors to make a good income and I don't want to interfere with how they want to be tailors. My views on the situation are my own view of what a tailor is, and some will disagree.
Overall, the issue is one that has caused a very heated debate and there will be no solution that appeals to everyone. The best we can do is to disagree and try and heal the friction it has caused. It helps no one to get upset and point blame, make accusations, hurl recriminations, or start complaining that the situation is untenable. Be the kind of tailor you want to be. Be polite to the armoursmiths and realize that from their point of view, most are doing it to earn cash by running their business in a fast production to get out their product to a hungry customer base. The armoursmith profession is about profit and recognition for the finest product. It is not about style or colour.