Tailor Archive
Thread: OMG Master Level Items for under 2000 credits
Ah, but can you be SURE about that, Leeper? I mean, are you positive the architects and armorsmiths would complain about you? You seem like a very thorough person, and here you've made a comment you really can't back up with facts. I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor for you to unlearn your tailor skills, pick up armorsmith and architect, and really put that theory to the test. Get us some hard numbers. Maybe you should run some tests on different servers too.For the sake of comparison, of course.
Just trying to help. =)
I'm glad you're happy about your clothing prices, but in all honesty, I, as a tailor who bought nearly all of my skill boxes, cannot justify those prices. I own my own factories, maintain my own vendors (sub let a master merchant that I have to pay for the services), maintain my own harvesters through hired miners and my own lots, and pay scouts for meat and hide. I can't fathom that anyone selling that low doesn't have a PA supplying them, more accounts and macros for harvesting, or is duping. I could be wrong, but if there's a way to do it otherwise, I have yet to find it.
I bought all but one of my tailor boxes, I own my own factories, maintain my own vendors on my own merchant skills, which I also paid for, maintain my own harvestors through my own work, and pay a few people for extras at a prearranged price. I hunt my own hides with my own combat skills, many of which I also paid for due to my odd playtime. Your cost for training is a one time expense. Do you intend to drop your prices once you've recouped the costs, or do you plan to charge every customer you ever have for that same 315k until the end of time?
I am not in a PA, if by more accounts you mean borrowing lots, then yes, my rl husband trades me some of his lots. However I have never run a harvesting macro, and I most definitely have not duped. Here is how you do it otherwise - use larger harvestors that you own and maintain without a middle man, gather your own bone and hides without a middle man, and if you don't have the luxury of a spouse/sibling/whatever who will let you use a lot or two, co-op your lots with another or several crafters who need similar resources, and never place those harvestors on anything less than 80% (some would argue 90%); everyone contributes lots and all contribute to the maintenance/power. I guarantee if you go co-op with crafters in other professions than tailor, they will be exponentially pickier than you about quality so you won't need to worry about getting junk resources. I'd also be willing to guess a lot of the higher priced tailors have already figured this out, they just don't lower their prices to reflect it.
I'm curious to those who advocate rock bottom prices for Master Tailor items with one question. If there was 1 item on the bazzar for sale for 3k, would you put the same item up there for sale for 2950, or would you put it up for sale for 500 credits.
How about none of the above? I check the bazaar before I decide what to list and I list what isn't there in abundance. I don't alter my prices based on what tailors were passing through town on any given day. If my stuff goesup higherthan someone else, fine mine might sit an extra day, if it goes up lower, it has nothing to do with them and theymay end up waiting an extra day. Then again, keep in mind, my pricing allows me to make a profit yet still list master items on the bazaar, so it's not like I see many people listing anything I have before I get there. If I do throw a non-master item up there, it's usually something a customer changed their mind about, and it goes up at the same price it always has for me.
One thing the lower price advocates are really slipping up on is you are only figuring in cost of resources, what about your time? Time to reach Master, time to gather the resources, time to actually craft it, time to think up prices, time to put together advertisments, time to get to Merchant skills, time to stock your vendor.
I figure in more than the cost of resources. If you can look at my pricing and it somehow coincidentally works out to x credits per resource across the board, that really is all it is - coincidence. But to address your specified time sinks:
Time to reach master - I was compensated for this time by the items I sold while reaching master. I did not grind straight through, rather I worked with what I sold and ground out the occasional few k xp at the end of a box or during a long shuttle wait at 3am. (and no I'm not anti-grind, though I do have little patience for people who choose pure grinding and then whine about how boring it is the entire time they do it and for months after they're done)
Time to gather resources - I am as much a combat character as a crafter. I harvest my own hides, and for me a harvestor run is a hunting trip. I enjoy combat, the more challenging the better, and am actually happier when I find my harvestors surrounded by mobs, though I'll admit there are nights when I need reinforcements if it's a really heavy spawn 
I don't set aside time each day just for resource gathering, I incorporate it into the hunting I'd be doing for fun whether I needed the hides or not. I don't see combat classes getting paid to go exploring alone or with a group of friends, so I hardly expect my customers to pay me for doing the same thing they do for free every day.
Time to actually craft it - factory parts - 20 seconds to make the schematic, 30 to start the factory. Factory runs while I do any number of other things, so total time spent, 50 seconds. Customer order comes in - 5 seconds to read the exact name of the item and color from my website, 30 seconds to make the item, total time spent 35 seconds. Tell me, what exactly is 85 seconds worth in credits? Now if you actually mean time spent on consultations, it's something I'm having fun doing, and don't really expect to be paid for, but if you insisted I break down a value for it, it's incorporated in my pricing and still leaves a pure profit.
Time to think up prices - for a whole lot of people posting here I'd say that's however long it takes to load Nivea's page in your browser and click print. Maybe she can add a little extra, but there's dozens of people who can't claim much more effort than that. For those that do use their own pricing, it is again a one time expenditure. How many times do you intend to recharge your customers for that same series of 3 second vendor listings each day until you found a price nobody would pay?
Time to put together advertisements - I'd hazaard a guess that my time spent on advertisements exceeds that of pretty much everyone here. The last two updates to my website each ran over 10 hours, the last one being closer to 20, and they are hardly the only ones I've done, nor will they be the last. The thing is, that is something I chose to do. My customers didn't request it, and I'm not required to provide it to them, nor are they required to use it. The total time spent is again a one time expenditure that I don't plan to charge every customer for long after it's been reimbursed. In actuality, that website is saving hours for me individually and for my customers collectively, because they come in to pick up the exact items they wanted in the exact colors they wanted, rather than spending an hour while I attempt to describe the difference between sturdy and thermal boots or striped pants and striped slacks or Tailor II red and Tailor III red. I would also include the time setting up the displays in my shops. I have every tailoring and domestic item set up between two shops, with the exception of some bugged items I don't encourage people to buy until they're fixed. I had fun designing each outfit and planning the layout of each shop, and even if I hadn't it'syet anotherone time issue I don't expect my customers to still be paying for 6 months from now.
Time to get Merchant skills - The minute it took to choose a vendor and name it or the 24/7 it earned xp without me doing a thing besides dumping a little maintenance for the ones that actually charged it? Vendors and merchant xp need some work, but not for being a time sink by any stretch of the imagination, if anything because it is truly no time or effort xp. Then again, it would be nice if anything in the tree worked before they gave it any required effort to gain.
Time to stock vendors - 5 maybe 10 seconds per item, maybe a little more if the server lags, though honestly on Talus I rarely if ever lag. At most 20 seconds if it's a bio-enhanced item and I write a description of the skill bonuses, but those don't sell for my base prices, and I'm pretty sure that 20 second time investment is covered in my enhancement mark up.
In the end I think it comes down to two issues - how far do you want to micro-manage every second you spend in game, and how much you feel other people owe you to have fun. The bigger picture though, is what people at the high end of the pricing scale are asking of those at the low end. Basically what it all boils down to is no matter how each of us determines our final pricing, you are accusing us of being unfair to all other tailors, and then suggest we rectify that by doing what you perceive as being "fair" and raising our prices to make your life easier, even if doing so means we have to do something we see as being unfair to all the non-tailors. Hrm be percieved as fair by the minority of tailors or be perceived as fair by the majority of non-tailors, not really a tough call.
This is much longer than I intended it to go, but if you've made it this far and fall into that higher priced side of the scale, I now have a few questions for you.
There's another thread going on the board here: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=tailor&message.id=8695
It asks the question of how you deal with people who think your prices are too high. The most common answers seem to be /ban /addignore and then go on to refer to such people as idiots and children. So my questions - if so many of you are basing your pricing on "it's worth what people think it's worth" how can you possibly be accurate if you ban and ignore anyone who questions your prices? There seems to be a whole section of people not being represented by what they think so much as the one willing to pay anything thinks. And my other question, for those of you specifically refering to "people like that" or "they're as wrong as can be" or "the "idiots" that visit me", has it occurred to you that those people can read that post as easily as you and I? And my final question, that Ayane has brought up yet seems to be ignored each time, why is every post suggesting an agreement on fair pricing focused on people raising prices, but not once has anyone offered to lower a price? Negotiating and agreeing would seem to imply some give and take on both sides, yet I see a lot of people asking to take and nobody offering to give.
Again, sorry this got so long, but the board ate it the first time and gave me more time to think about it while typing it out for the second time.
I am not real concerned (yet) by this huge undercutting.
However, I wanted to clearly point out that I cannot make a Master Tailor item for 2000 credits and there isNO way you're making ANY profit from selling them for that amount. I don't care if you get all yer stuff for free or if you pay for them. There is no way you're making any profit from that, so don't even try to tell me you're makin any money selling MT items for that price because I know you're not.
Chiana
Master Tailor
I just got me three mediums and a 2nd factory, that costed an asston of money! I wonder if I would be able to do so by undercutting royal. And yeah, I bought it from someone else, not PA internal.
I am have been a master tailor on Tarquinas for over a month now and I want to state how saddened I am to be even hearing about this topic. First of all, I would like to say that selling master levels at 2k to 3k this point in time is not only doing a disservice to the tailoring cummunity on your server, but it is also doing a disservice to yourself. Honestly, if people are sellingmaster level items for an average of8k to 12k you can still charge master level items5k to 6k and people will come to you since it still cheaperfor them to buyyour product and buy a round tripshuttle ticket. You are only hurting yourself by notgetting the extra money for yourself. In addition, since clothes, at the moment, do not decay, they will be permanentlyin the game. As laws of economystates the more the supplyand less demand, thelower the prices. I think that most of the tailors are in this for the long haul, and they allwant the prices to be as stable as possible.
Now what Rarlossk is doing, I can understand. If he is keepingmost of his items at 5k-6k (which I consider the low end of the tailoring price range) and gives out discounts and such, he is still keeping hissetting his prices at lower range of what master tailors normally charge. I knowwhen I charged 10k for master level items I always threw in a pair of slippers and gloves for free as a token of my appreciation. That waythe prices were still set at 10k but people felt like they were getting something in return.
If this is a way of drawing people into your shop, there are many other ways of doing so without wrecking the prices of the tailoring community as whole.Try giving out yourbest outfits on the poorest dancers in the cantina and just chalked it up to as a promotional item, or go to a player owned cantina with dancers and offer discount to the dancers there. The list goes on and on. As far as customer service goes, there is nothing that beats that, if you have very good customer service people will always shop at your as long as your prices were within reason.
Lastly, I think there is a realdifference on thedifferent styles of tailors, rememberwith2 colored item with your full palette there are 40,000 different combinations.Yes, a loose dress canbe made into 40,000 ways. Anyways, this is my take on this discussion! Ciao~
Vlana
I feel like a real tailor now.. I just got my first "Well, on Bestine I saw spec ops for 500 credits and gunman's for 750" comment.
Frankly if I could delete the duster schematic from my datapad I would. Maybe I'll just price mine at 10K so I never have to sell one. :-)
"" Ri'a Ocoli"" Uniform Marshall, Kettemoor
"" Clothes by Ri'a is 1km north of Keren at 1190, 3770
"" .. my door is always open, stop by any time!
"I feel like a real tailor now.. I just got my first "Well, on Bestine I saw spec ops for 500 credits and gunman's for 750" comment. "
LOL... I feel your pain. It's always either dusters or bustiers. This thread needed a little humor in it, anyway.
These threads are always started bytailors who believe prices should be higherbecause undercutting affects how we, the "overchargers,"play the game. Charging more has no impact on anyone else.
Let's cut through the crap.
People andcompanies undercut in RL business for 2 reasons: 1) to steal customers, and 2) to drive their competition out of business. Rather this is your intent or not, if you are an undercutter this is what you're doing. No altruistic "for the good of all mankind!" or "I refuse to rip people off!" line is going to cut it. You're driving down prices, and other tailors have to respond to it. You are dictating how the other tailors are going to play the game.
If I sell my Master Tailor-level clothing for 15k-20k...how does that affect you? Not at all.
However, if you sell yours for 3k, then everyone that buys from you is going to be asked: "where did you get that great Flightsuit?" And your customer will respond "I ONLY PAID 3K FOR IT!" Eventually, that item will be worth...3k. And I will have to lower my prices to a level that I feel is ridiculously low, if I want to compete.
You have dictated my prices. Basically, you are forcing every tailor on your server to price their clothing at the price that you decide is fair. There is no right and wrong, this is all opinion. However, due to the mechanics of the game, you are able to force your opinion on everyone else involved.
I do charge 10-20k for MT-level clothes, BTW. And people pay it, and occasionally tip me over and above what I'm charging.On my server, it actually still means something to be able to afford a Robe of Honor, becausetailors aren't selling them in the Bazaar for 3k. Yet. They cost 20k, and if you can't afford it, you can buy something else. It's called a Robe of Honor because it's an elite item. All MT-level clothing should be considered elite clothing; it's the best stuff you're ever going to make.
If everyone in RL had a Rolex, what would owning a Rolex mean? Nothing.
I'm not trying to win anyone over, I realize thatundercutters think what they're doing is justified, and within their rights. Great. I just feel compelled to try and explain why the "overchargers" get so bent out of shape about this. It's already been said very eloquently by several people, but I wanted to toss my 2cr in here for posterity.
My kingdom for an "edit" button!
I hate to drone on, but I wanted to say yet one more thing, hehe.
Things in this game are too easy to obtain. There is nothing to work for. After you have acquired the best weapons, armor and clothes...what is there left to buy, untilSOE introduces high-end luxury items? Nothing.
If the best items that each crafting class can make are priced sufficiently high enough, then people have something to work for, to save for. If you can walk into the shop owned by the best weaponsmith on your server and buy 5 of his most expensive weapons, then it's just another ho-hum experience. If you have to run missions for 3 days and actually WORK to have enough money to buy ONE of them, then it's a meaningful experience. You worked hard for something that you really wanted, and you were rewarded for your work.
If you wake up on your 16th birthday, and there's a Porsche 911 in the driveway with a bow on it and a card saying "Good Morning Son! Happy Birthday! Sorry we couldn't afford the Lambourghini you really wanted!"...do you think that you are going to appreciate thatcar as much as you would had you been forced to struggle through college, start your own business and finally be able to afford a Porsche when you send your last kid off to college? I don't think so.
If the best clothing that a tailor makes are priced at a level that people have to work and save for them, then that clothingwill mean a lot more to your customers;if that customerwalks into the cantina andevery other entertainer has a fit over their newRevealing Fleshwrap, itwas worth the effort it took to obtain the money to buy one. If every entertainer in the cantina is already wearing a Revealing Fleshwrap because a tailor dumped them on the Bazaar for 3k each, the item has been de-valued. It means nothing.
I brought this up with Elune when it was she and Maggie May that were the only Masters on our server. I come originally from Anarcy Online. Back when it was an MMORPG and not an MMOG, there was a social wear patch that added all sorts of new "money sink" clothing. these items were out of reach for people, and when you bought one, it was a real event for you. When money wasnt as tight later on, everyone, including lvl 2 stripper cyb0r alts had them, and one in particular, making the appeal and look of them just seem silly and stupid.
I guess my point is that flooding the market with these things is just plain wrong. You may feel like you're ripping them off for charging so much, when in fact you're doing them a favour my making the item they buy special.
comatoast wrote:
My kingdom for an "edit" button!
I hate to drone on, but I wanted to say yet one more thing, hehe.
Things in this game are too easy to obtain. There is nothing to work for. After you have acquired the best weapons, armor and clothes...what is there left to buy, untilSOE introduces high-end luxury items? Nothing.
If the best items that each crafting class can make are priced sufficiently high enough, then people have something to work for, to save for. If you can walk into the shop owned by the best weaponsmith on your server and buy 5 of his most expensive weapons, then it's just another ho-hum experience. If you have to run missions for 3 days and actually WORK to have enough money to buy ONE of them, then it's a meaningful experience. You worked hard for something that you really wanted, and you were rewarded for your work.
If you wake up on your 16th birthday, and there's a Porsche 911 in the driveway with a bow on it and a card saying "Good Morning Son! Happy Birthday! Sorry we couldn't afford the Lambourghini you really wanted!"...do you think that you are going to appreciate thatcar as much as you would had you been forced to struggle through college, start your own business and finally be able to afford a Porsche when you send your last kid off to college? I don't think so.
If the best clothing that a tailor makes are priced at a level that people have to work and save for them, then that clothingwill mean a lot more to your customers;if that customerwalks into the cantina andevery other entertainer has a fit over their newRevealing Fleshwrap, itwas worth the effort it took to obtain the money to buy one. If every entertainer in the cantina is already wearing a Revealing Fleshwrap because a tailor dumped them on the Bazaar for 3k each, the item has been de-valued. It means nothing.
Exactly!
But sadly the undercutters just dont' care about that. We haev said it over and over but they just don't understand teh value. It's really sad,