Swordsman Archive

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quitch wrote:

when using a ranged weapon, you get a defensive penalty, so they have to make up with some offense. it makes sense to me.

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HALAE

*edited by admin after cease and desist from the Retard's association of america on the grounds that portraying a mentally challenged person as a jedi was an attack on their intelligence *

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J-R wrote:

he has a good point some ranged can shoot you from 80meters away when we have to be 5 meters away. That alone is a massive advantage over any melee class. Especially since they have snaring and stopping attacks that can make it so we cant even reach them.

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I have to agree. The devs should have never lowered the melee range as far as they have. 10 - 15 meters is where it should be at least. There is no room for a 100% melee character in CU, you will get wasted by ranged everytime. Since you have no long range abilities like jedi do to stop kiters.....it means you have to have some kind of ranged mixed with melee to even be viable now.

It's so easy to kite now than it was before CU that you can do it with your eyes closed. So sad!

I dunno about you guys but my current temp is TKM/Master Swords/doc4000 and I have no problem with ranged people during PvP. You just have to have skill, which in your case I could bet my life on it that you dont have enough skill. I've havent died in about 6 days now from 1v1 duels during PVP. I didnt win all of them either, but they came ot the point where " Hell man you're melee I should have had you killed a long time ago, we've dueled for about 25mins now, and no one is going to win as you can see."

So i dunno what you peopel are doign wrong bu ti dont lose.

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TKMaster-Doc wrote:

I dunno about you guys but my current temp is TKM/Master Swords/doc4000 and I have no problem with ranged people during PvP. You just have to have skill, which in your case I could bet my life on it that you dont have enough skill. I've havent died in about 6 days now from 1v1 duels during PVP. I didnt win all of them either, but they came ot the point where " Hell man you're melee I should have had you killed a long time ago, we've dueled for about 25mins now, and no one is going to win as you can see."

So i dunno what you peopel are doign wrong bu ti dont lose.

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Once again, someone not understanding the issue.

It's not about winning or losing at all.I have no trouble fighting at all. The point is that if a melee and a ranged person both are attackable (SF adn active in pvp) and the ranged is already more than 20 meters away from you. You have no chance in hell to do anything providing they are knowledgeable of how to kite properly. A ranged toon has the potential to kiteinfinitely and never get touched by the melee toon due to the attack ranges. (fortunately, not many people kite a lot because everyone is too busy trying to get in range to apply thyroid rupture and AB....So it doesn't seem as big as an issue as people may think).

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HardwiredXMan wrote:

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J-R wrote:

he has a good point some ranged can shoot you from 80meters away when we have to be 5 meters away. That alone is a massive advantage over any melee class. Especially since they have snaring and stopping attacks that can make it so we cant even reach them.

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I have to agree. The devs should have never lowered the melee range as far as they have. 10 - 15 meters is where it should be at least. There is no room for a 100% melee character in CU, you will get wasted by ranged everytime.NOT TRUE AT ALL... COULDNT BE MORE WRONG. Since you have no long range abilities like jedi do to stop kiters..... if you know what you are doing as melee, you will use LOS to make the ranged come to you, and also burst run to close the gap, and eventually KD them and load the damage. i beat many ranged in pvp. it means you have to have some kind of ranged mixed with melee to even be viable now. again, NOT TRUE

It's so easy to kite now than it was before CU that you can do it with your eyes closed. So sad! ya, its easier, but melee can take a lot more damage than ranged can, and when rooted, i just take the damage with COB, and heal up... also, my action regens (which is not a bad thing)

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Message Edited by quitch on 08-13-2005 05:14 PM

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quitch wrote:

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HardwiredXMan wrote:

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J-R wrote:

he has a good point some ranged can shoot you from 80meters away when we have to be 5 meters away. That alone is a massive advantage over any melee class. Especially since they have snaring and stopping attacks that can make it so we cant even reach them.

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I have to agree. The devs should have never lowered the melee range as far as they have. 10 - 15 meters is where it should be at least. There is no room for a 100% melee character in CU, you will get wasted by ranged everytime.NOT TRUE AT ALL... COULDNT BE MORE WRONG. Since you have no long range abilities like jedi do to stop kiters..... if you know what you are doing as melee, you will use LOS to make the ranged come to you, and also burst run to close the gap, and eventually KD them and load the damage. i beat many ranged in pvp. it means you have to have some kind of ranged mixed with melee to even be viable now. again, NOT TRUE

It's so easy to kite now than it was before CU that you can do it with your eyes closed. So sad! ya, its easier, but melee can take a lot more damage than ranged can, and when rooted, i just take the damage with COB, and heal up... also, my action regens (which is not a bad thing)

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however, in SF pvp, ranged has the advantage, because they can kite and if someone else from their side arrives, you are dead because you have 1 ranged person attacking from out of range, then another peron. in SF 1on1 pvp, melee still stands a good chance. its all about tactics

Message Edited by quitch on 08-13-2005 05:14 PM

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quitch wrote:

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HardwiredXMan wrote:

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J-R wrote:

he has a good point some ranged can shoot you from 80meters away when we have to be 5 meters away. That alone is a massive advantage over any melee class. Especially since they have snaring and stopping attacks that can make it so we cant even reach them.

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I have to agree. The devs should have never lowered the melee range as far as they have. 10 - 15 meters is where it should be at least. There is no room for a 100% melee character in CU, you will get wasted by ranged everytime.NOT TRUE AT ALL... COULDNT BE MORE WRONG. Since you have no long range abilities like jedi do to stop kiters..... if you know what you are doing as melee, you will use LOS to make the ranged come to you, and also burst run to close the gap, and eventually KD them and load the damage. i beat many ranged in pvp. it means you have to have some kind of ranged mixed with melee to even be viable now. again, NOT TRUE

It's so easy to kite now than it was before CU that you can do it with your eyes closed. So sad! ya, its easier, but melee can take a lot more damage than ranged can, and when rooted, i just take the damage with COB, and heal up... also, my action regens (which is not a bad thing)

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however, in SF pvp, ranged has the advantage, because they can kite and if someone else from their side arrives, you are dead because you have 1 ranged person attacking from out of range, then another peron. in SF 1on1 pvp, melee still stands a good chance. its all about tactics

Message Edited by quitch on 08-13-200505:14 PM

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HardwiredXMan wrote:

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quitch wrote:

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HardwiredXMan wrote:

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J-R wrote:

he has a good point some ranged can shoot you from 80meters away when we have to be 5 meters away. That alone is a massive advantage over any melee class. Especially since they have snaring and stopping attacks that can make it so we cant even reach them.

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I have to agree. The devs should have never lowered the melee range as far as they have. 10 - 15 meters is where it should be at least. There is no room for a 100% melee character in CU, you will get wasted by ranged everytime.NOT TRUE AT ALL... COULDNT BE MORE WRONG. Since you have no long range abilities like jedi do to stop kiters..... if you know what you are doing as melee, you will use LOS to make the ranged come to you, and also burst run to close the gap, and eventually KD them and load the damage. i beat many ranged in pvp. it means you have to have some kind of ranged mixed with melee to even be viable now. again, NOT TRUE

It's so easy to kite now than it was before CU that you can do it with your eyes closed. So sad! ya, its easier, but melee can take a lot more damage than ranged can, and when rooted, i just take the damage with COB, and heal up... also, my action regens (which is not a bad thing)

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however, in SF pvp, ranged has the advantage, because they can kite and if someone else from their side arrives, you are dead because you have 1 ranged person attacking from out of range, then another peron. in SF 1on1 pvp, melee still stands a good chance. its all about tactics

Message Edited by quitch on 08-13-200505:14 PM

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I hear what your saying, I myself have no problems against ranged or melee attackers and yes some tactics work (against dumb players). I am a tactical fighter by nature,I rely on my knowledge of the game to fight and my surroundings when necessary.

However, everything you pointed out can be done by the ranged profession also. You burst run, they burst run, you use LOS and they run away (you never get a kill that way) or do what I do, circle around until you have LOS again while still maintaining your 60+ meter distance. I never ever, close the ranged because my target is hiding behind something in fact I extend it if possible.. If they wish to win, then they have to catch meand getwithin their attack range, I refuse to help them by moving into their attack range.I will burst run with parwin food all day with my ALT, and force speed 1 with a ALR with my jedi against ranged kiters who like to stay outside my 32m range. As Ranged, I will root you and slowly move to my maxium range, then when root is gone and you give chase, I kite until either burst run or root cooldown is over and repeat. If they don't give chase, then they have no choice but to use LOS or else I will slaughter them. This is the issue here. Ranged have unrestricted options, melee have all but 2 options.

So as I do use abilities to root, snare, KD, Aura/COB..etc. For melee all of their abilities have to be done within close ranged. So all they have is LOS and burst run which as I said is easily countered by the opponent doing the same or using tactics like snaring the melee attacker while having TN BE clothes among other things.

My point is that not through skill of the player, but through design of the game, melee players are at a 95% disadvantage from the jump vs a ranged opponent before the fight even starts. Also, when I speak of melee vs ranged, I'm speaking of many situations, but one in particular is when you face a knowledgeable ranged player. The fact is that it's more of a headache to chase down someone or hope they are dumb enough to fall for theLOS manipulation to hit'em with a hammer than it is to jog backwards and shoot lasers.

As far as defenses go, that is only a disadvantage for ranged when the gap is closed to melee range.....if a ranged profession can manage to kite successfully for the duration of the fight....they don't even need 1 point of defense verse a melee character because the melee character don't have the range to ever touch the ranged character. So what has to be done then is to pull out a certified ranged weapon and that totally makes it redundant to even have a melee profession at all. where's the game balance, not the movie balance.

As for 15m being to far for melee, well I sorta agree that it could be too much....however, when you look at the origin of pikeman (remember all professions in this game derive from historical references from many cultures), Their main purpose was to act as a "SHORT RANGED" melee attacker. Where a swordsman's strength was in his powerful sweeping attacks, heavily armored body and ability to withstand damage and dish damage, the pikeman's strength was in his ability to have the same armor but with an extended range at a damage disadvantage. A swordsman died to horsemanor long ranged attackers without getting a single hit in veryoften because they were either too fast, had the height advantage (knights on horses), or hadmomentum and speed as an advantage....plus range. That's where the pikeman comes into the picture. With their pikes, they were the match for mobile enemies and having such long weapons, they could go light on the armor which allowed them to have a little extra speed and agility while they used their extended ranged pikes to inflict damage on the enemy.

So all I'm saying is that every single melee class being limited to 5m range is a bit redundant and also a huge huge huge disadvantage in this game. Carbs, pistols, rifles and heavy weapons all have different but limited ranges, yet a pike has same range as a fencer, TK or swordsman. I'm sorry but a TK has only arms reach, How can a 10 foot pike not have further range thank some 8 - 13 inch knucklers? A sweeping attack with a pike covers much more ground than a fencers sweep or a swordsman's sweep with a powerhammer.

So from my point of view, first of all, I'm not whining about anything, I'm looking at the game logically and pointing out the problems that conflict with the ability to truely have balance in this game. All this talk about balance this and that, but yet simple concepts as varying ranges(some more drastic thanothers) is lost amongst all the nerf cries and "why is x professions ability so much better than mine" talk.

No matter what, ranged should always have an adavantage with being ranged, but by all means, melee is not limited to 5m range for all melee professions, but yet the game has done it this way.

a 10m range is nothing compared to 65. Heck, lets take cyber arms into play. Ranged = nearly 80 meters.....well what chance in hell does melee have against that. So stay out of that situation you say....yup I agree, but considering 95% of all combat professions have ranged attacks because of their obvious advantages, you find yourself in this situation more than you would like.

As far as I'm concerned, melee range was fine before CU, the only problem was that ranged damage sucked except for rifleman and that was probably due to the uber buffs and armor (which I still beleive was the major problem with the old system, nothing more). Now ranged get a damage boost and a range boost along with rooting and snares, while melee gets reduced range and abilities that are absolutely useless if you can't get inrange to use them.

One thing that I would have liked to see to make a difference is that melee professions should be the only ones to get roots while ranged professions get the snares. That way, ranged can slow melee down to help keep the ranged advantage, but melee could cripple ranged movement for a time to strentghen their close range advantage. No way should ranged professions have stackable roots, snares and mezzes at the same time. This design is why the game continues to stay unbalanced and get more unbalanced as CU goes on. Every profession has too many abilities that aid each other to the point where a 3 min fight ends up lasting for 45 minutes. healing is too powerful, armor is getting better and better (especially with the BH loot drops now), jedi keep getting nerfed, Kashyyyk is a ranged professions heaven as far as weapon drops go. But the main problem is that in the devs attempt to create a simple combat system with more balance, they forgot about the hybrid nature of professions which you can see has nearly given normal professions the same power of a jedi (not quite but very close with specific templates).

Also, without group fighting, there would be no need for melee professions at all.See this is not an issue where you can easily say don't go all melee because of the ranged disadvantage either. last time I checked this game was supposed to give everyone the freedom to play the kind of template they want and enjoy. It might not be for PVP purposes, it could be Roleplay......but we all find ourselves in PVP at some point. Still,if we want to go all melee or all ranged, sure there should be clear disadvantages, butthere should be advantages too.....Where the heck is melee advantage, because frankly I don't see it?

So no matter what people say, there would be no unbalancing issue for melee to get a few extra meters of range. Right now Jedi are probably 95% of melee profession anywayand that's sad to me. I know it's star wars and all they showed was gun fights, but this is a game that has many different kinds of people wanting to play the profession choices they like that the devs put in the game and still have a 50/50 chance, not a 90/10 chance in a fight. If the devs wanted an all ranged game, then why the heck do we even have melee classes other than jedi.

See the difference between ranged and melee is that ranged can use every ability they have access to at will at anytime with only timers and HAM restrictions, but melee have to use things that the profession doesn't even give you in order to be a challenge and hope to win(LOS, burst run).As far as I'm concerned, LOS and burst run are supposed to be minor combat altering tactics you can use from time to time, not rely on them.

Lastly, to make it clear, I am a jedi and my alt is a master pistoleer who uses an ALR to kite mobs 6 levels higher than her and never get touched. So for pve, ranged/melee issue is big. For pvp, it's a smaller issue because well, we have brains, A.I.don't. But I am looking at this situation fromboth sides. My experiences being nearly every kind of hybrid coombat profession you can be in this game has showed me how the balance between melee and ranged are worlds apart. The evidence is right in front of our face. Pre-CU, melee dominated.....Post-Cu, Ranged dominates (besides jedi).We've gone from one extreme to the other. For me, I can manage, but for many other people their experience isruined because of the above issues. Also remember just because you or your friendcan do something, it's not necessarily the standard by which you should judge everyone else. You may beone of the lucky ones who's just naturally gifted to adapt.....but that in no way means every can do the same.

Will the devs change anything? I Don't know.Is this a valid concern of lots of players? very much so to the point they don't even take meleeprofessions because they are gimped inPVP and that rightthere says more than anything else I can type here.

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wow, thats a really good post. yes, i guess i havent fought the most smart ranged people. how i usually win vs combat medics, (i usually only duel in the MO, other places sometimes though) is when they come in to apply things like parylize and states you have to be melee ranged to apply, they are within chasing range. i burst run and follow them and doa little damage, kd and load on the damage.

i agree, LOS and burst run should be minor tactics, not things to depend upon

vs a skilled rifle/carbineer (or pistoleer)/cm, i would have a lot of trouble with the roots and snares. they also have the same tactics, burst run away, use LOS to regen if needed.

after that, id have to say melee is gimped in pvp

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HardwiredXMan wrote:

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quitch wrote:

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HardwiredXMan wrote:

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J-R wrote:

he has a good point some ranged can shoot you from 80meters away when we have to be 5 meters away. That alone is a massive advantage over any melee class. Especially since they have snaring and stopping attacks that can make it so we cant even reach them.

---

I have to agree. The devs should have never lowered the melee range as far as they have. 10 - 15 meters is where it should be at least. There is no room for a 100% melee character in CU, you will get wasted by ranged everytime. NOT TRUE AT ALL... COULDNT BE MORE WRONG. Since you have no long range abilities like jedi do to stop kiters..... if you know what you are doing as melee, you will use LOS to make the ranged come to you, and also burst run to close the gap, and eventually KD them and load the damage. i beat many ranged in pvp. it means you have to have some kind of ranged mixed with melee to even be viable now. again, NOT TRUE

It's so easy to kite now than it was before CU that you can do it with your eyes closed. So sad! ya, its easier, but melee can take a lot more damage than ranged can, and when rooted, i just take the damage with COB, and heal up... also, my action regens (which is not a bad thing)

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however, in SF pvp, ranged has the advantage, because they can kite and if someone else from their side arrives, you are dead because you have 1 ranged person attacking from out of range, then another peron. in SF 1on1 pvp, melee still stands a good chance. its all about tactics

Message Edited by quitch on 08-13-200505:14 PM

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I hear what your saying, I myself have no problems against ranged or melee attackers and yes some tactics work (against dumb players). I am a tactical fighter by nature, I rely on my knowledge of the game to fight and my surroundings when necessary.

However, everything you pointed out can be done by the ranged profession also. You burst run, they burst run, you use LOS and they run away (you never get a kill that way) or do what I do, circle around until you have LOS again while still maintaining your 60+ meter distance. I never ever, close the ranged because my target is hiding behind something in fact I extend it if possible. . If they wish to win, then they have to catch me and get within their attack range, I refuse to help them by moving into their attack range. I will burst run with parwin food all day with my ALT, and force speed 1 with a ALR with my jedi against ranged kiters who like to stay outside my 32m range. As Ranged, I will root you and slowly move to my maxium range, then when root is gone and you give chase, I kite until either burst run or root cooldown is over and repeat. If they don't give chase, then they have no choice but to use LOS or else I will slaughter them. This is the issue here. Ranged have unrestricted options, melee have all but 2 options.

So as I do use abilities to root, snare, KD, Aura/COB..etc. For melee all of their abilities have to be done within close ranged. So all they have is LOS and burst run which as I said is easily countered by the opponent doing the same or using tactics like snaring the melee attacker while having TN BE clothes among other things.

My point is that not through skill of the player, but through design of the game, melee players are at a 95% disadvantage from the jump vs a ranged opponent before the fight even starts. Also, when I speak of melee vs ranged, I'm speaking of many situations, but one in particular is when you face a knowledgeable ranged player. The fact is that it's more of a headache to chase down someone or hope they are dumb enough to fall for the LOS manipulation to hit'em with a hammer than it is to jog backwards and shoot lasers.

As far as defenses go, that is only a disadvantage for ranged when the gap is closed to melee range.....if a ranged profession can manage to kite successfully for the duration of the fight....they don't even need 1 point of defense verse a melee character because the melee character don't have the range to ever touch the ranged character. So what has to be done then is to pull out a certified ranged weapon and that totally makes it redundant to even have a melee profession at all. where's the game balance, not the movie balance.

As for 15m being to far for melee, well I sorta agree that it could be too much....however, when you look at the origin of pikeman (remember all professions in this game derive from historical references from many cultures), Their main purpose was to act as a "SHORT RANGED" melee attacker. Where a swordsman's strength was in his powerful sweeping attacks, heavily armored body and ability to withstand damage and dish damage, the pikeman's strength was in his ability to have the same armor but with an extended range at a damage disadvantage. A swordsman died to horseman or long ranged attackers without getting a single hit in very often because they were either too fast, had the height advantage (knights on horses), or had momentum and speed as an advantage....plus range. That's where the pikeman comes into the picture. With their pikes, they were the match for mobile enemies and having such long weapons, they could go light on the armor which allowed them to have a little extra speed and agility while they used their extended ranged pikes to inflict damage on the enemy.

So all I'm saying is that every single melee class being limited to 5m range is a bit redundant and also a huge huge huge disadvantage in this game. Carbs, pistols, rifles and heavy weapons all have different but limited ranges, yet a pike has same range as a fencer, TK or swordsman. I'm sorry but a TK has only arms reach, How can a 10 foot pike not have further range thank some 8 - 13 inch knucklers? A sweeping attack with a pike covers much more ground than a fencers sweep or a swordsman's sweep with a powerhammer.

So from my point of view, first of all, I'm not whining about anything, I'm looking at the game logically and pointing out the problems that conflict with the ability to truely have balance in this game. All this talk about balance this and that, but yet simple concepts as varying ranges (some more drastic than others) is lost amongst all the nerf cries and "why is x professions ability so much better than mine" talk.

No matter what, ranged should always have an adavantage with being ranged, but by all means, melee is not limited to 5m range for all melee professions, but yet the game has done it this way.

a 10m range is nothing compared to 65. Heck, lets take cyber arms into play. Ranged = nearly 80 meters.....well what chance in hell does melee have against that. So stay out of that situation you say....yup I agree, but considering 95% of all combat professions have ranged attacks because of their obvious advantages, you find yourself in this situation more than you would like.

As far as I'm concerned, melee range was fine before CU, the only problem was that ranged damage sucked except for rifleman and that was probably due to the uber buffs and armor (which I still beleive was the major problem with the old system, nothing more). Now ranged get a damage boost and a range boost along with rooting and snares, while melee gets reduced range and abilities that are absolutely useless if you can't get in range to use them.

One thing that I would have liked to see to make a difference is that melee professions should be the only ones to get roots while ranged professions get the snares. That way, ranged can slow melee down to help keep the ranged advantage, but melee could cripple ranged movement for a time to strentghen their close range advantage. No way should ranged professions have stackable roots, snares and mezzes at the same time. This design is why the game continues to stay unbalanced and get more unbalanced as CU goes on. Every profession has too many abilities that aid each other to the point where a 3 min fight ends up lasting for 45 minutes. healing is too powerful, armor is getting better and better (especially with the BH loot drops now), jedi keep getting nerfed, Kashyyyk is a ranged professions heaven as far as weapon drops go. But the main problem is that in the devs attempt to create a simple combat system with more balance, they forgot about the hybrid nature of professions which you can see has nearly given normal professions the same power of a jedi (not quite but very close with specific templates).

Also, without group fighting, there would be no need for melee professions at all. See this is not an issue where you can easily say don't go all melee because of the ranged disadvantage either. last time I checked this game was supposed to give everyone the freedom to play the kind of template they want and enjoy. It might not be for PVP purposes, it could be Roleplay......but we all find ourselves in PVP at some point. Still, if we want to go all melee or all ranged, sure there should be clear disadvantages, but there should be advantages too.....Where the heck is melee advantage, because frankly I don't see it?

So no matter what people say, there would be no unbalancing issue for melee to get a few extra meters of range. Right now Jedi are probably 95% of melee profession anyway and that's sad to me. I know it's star wars and all they showed was gun fights, but this is a game that has many different kinds of people wanting to play the profession choices they like that the devs put in the game and still have a 50/50 chance, not a 90/10 chance in a fight. If the devs wanted an all ranged game, then why the heck do we even have melee classes other than jedi.

See the difference between ranged and melee is that ranged can use every ability they have access to at will at anytime with only timers and HAM restrictions, but melee have to use things that the profession doesn't even give you in order to be a challenge and hope to win (LOS, burst run). As far as I'm concerned, LOS and burst run are supposed to be minor combat altering tactics you can use from time to time, not rely on them.

Lastly, to make it clear, I am a jedi and my alt is a master pistoleer who uses an ALR to kite mobs 6 levels higher than her and never get touched. So for pve, ranged/melee issue is big. For pvp, it's a smaller issue because well, we have brains, A.I. don't. But I am looking at this situation from both sides. My experiences being nearly every kind of hybrid coombat profession you can be in this game has showed me how the balance between melee and ranged are worlds apart. The evidence is right in front of our face. Pre-CU, melee dominated.....Post-Cu, Ranged dominates (besides jedi). We've gone from one extreme to the other. For me, I can manage, but for many other people their experience is ruined because of the above issues. Also remember just because you or your friend can do something, it's not necessarily the standard by which you should judge everyone else. You may be one of the lucky ones who's just naturally gifted to adapt.....but that in no way means every can do the same.

Will the devs change anything? I Don't know. Is this a valid concern of lots of players? very much so to the point they don't even take melee professions because they are gimped in PVP and that right there says more than anything else I can type here.

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HALAE

*edited by admin after cease and desist from the Retard's association of america on the grounds that portraying a mentally challenged person as a jedi was an attack on their intelligence *