Swordsman Archive

Hiya,

Henzo-Kauri pointed my attention to an issue i would be glad seeing the community's opinion about. There is alot of stuff going on on the Dev front right now and balancing certainly hasn't come to and end yet. I want to have my facts, means your issues, right, but as i'm personally not much of a PVP'er i would be glad if you could help me out here.

I'm going to repost what HK posted in the Post-it thread and i would be glad to see an objective discussion about this...and by objective i mean taking into consideration what standard concerning power output certain professions have in the overall picture and where swordsmen should be located in it. I think we need to be very careful when it comes to discussing topics like power output as the line to uberness is thin and easily crossed and i would say and hope that none of us wants to achieve this uberness and neither will the Devs. But of course if there is a certain deficiency regarding this topic for our profession it's certainly a valid point and has all the rights being brought up as an issue.

Before i repost i would like to ask you a question though, Henzo:Do you agreethat this concerns PvP only and that our PvE damage output is fine ?

Thanks for helping me out here and here it comes:

First of all damage = amount of damage x speed at which they can put that damage out.

Ok here is a list of the ranged professions that out damage us considerably.

BH - using a LLC easy 1 shot incap

Commando - Flamethrower, nuff said

Rifleman - Strafe shot 2, 1 shot incap

Pistoleer - i've been hit with stopping shot for over 500 pts damage regularly in PvP, and at 1 shot per second that is way more than we'll ever do even with 2hand hit 3, our special we get at master. (BTW i've seen krayt pistols like the fwg5 with stats of 1.8 speed 300 max damage unsliced, none of our weapons even comes close)

Smuggler - last ditch been hit for 900 damage before with this and they can fire this very fast too.

Now I know we can get some heavy hits with a powerhammer and mind hit 3 or 2hand hit 3, thats 1 hit every 3 seconds or so, these other classes, rifleman, pistoleer or smuggler can do the same amount of damage every second. We cant even match the same numbers as bounty hunters or commandos, even though their attacks are much slower I have been hit for over 1500 damage regularly by them. Now in PvP i rarely hit for over 600and that is with the powerhammer and 2hand mind-hit3 or 2hand -hit3, (my powerhammer although not great is 5.4 speed and 580 damage) thats 600 damageevery 3 seconds if i'm lucky and dont miss. I seem to miss quite frequentlly with the PH and even more so when using a special (while most classes recieve an accuracy bonus to their specials).

Please note i know its possible to get big hits when attacking rifleman/commandos and the 2.5 damage modifier is applied but all these classes are outdamaging us without any modifiers.

I don't pvp a lot, but from what I've seen : it's oftena matter of luck for us. I already one shoted at about 1600 dommage in the head, but I sometimes hit for 200 too. I use mostlya 125-706 powerhammer with about 4.5 speed (and -20 "to hit" bonus), so dommage range is huge.

I pve a lot however, and I can say for sure that in pve dommage outpout is ok. Both PH and sword are usefull, depending of the situation, and we can compare with tka/BH/commando without shame. A pve fight is often longer than a pvp one between two masters, so bleed give us a bigger adventage, especialy on medium and heavy armored mob.

How do u get your hammers damage so high and spd 4.5? i can only find the best hammer at 5.4 spd..465dmg unsliced...if the dmg was sliced, your hammer should only be 5.4 spd

I think they should leave other classes the same, but make swordsmen something to fear. If you let him get close enough to you, you're going down.

Awik, He has it sliced for damage, with a dmg/speed powerup on it.

As for the PvP damage issue. I never really get close enough to a ranged user to see a regular dmg output. But I don't pvp very often either.

The only PvP experiences I can really remember dmg output for is against TKA's. And as we all know, they totally own us for raw attack damage, even without the their KD, or any specials. They kill me before I can even get their health to 75%.

I don't PvP anymore. I used to LOVE it back in the summer when the other classes were more in line with us.

The last few times I PvP'ed, even though I was M2H and MCH I was continually poisoned and burnt up. Those attacks are considered melee (by me) since they are close range. Although I made a good amount of kills against those classes (commando and CM)the damage and more importantly the wounds I caused were minor in comaprison.

I don't generally worry about ranged attacks. When I see a red dot I sick a Rancor or Toxic Battlelord on it. But then that pet usually gets burnt up and then I feel stupid for not taking the target myself.

I will say this... theopponents in these last few battles are considered on my server to be the BEST of the BEST at PvP and thats something to consider... but on the other hand if I can't beat the best then it's not much fun. I don't get any satisfaction in killing some poor-lone-tef'ed-n00b-scout trying to doing a mission in the middle of no where.

I think there have been some changes to TEF and non-grouped covert players?

I did see a singleovert TKM rebel go into Bestine the other day and kill5 overts and a half a dozen Fpets (s troopers). There were no commandos there though. It was something to watch! The bullets just weren't doing anything to him! He was a transdo though and appeared to be doctor buffed as well.

the way i see it, raw damage output is pretty equal with heavy weapons. Without the advantage to shot while moving.

new defense upgrades on TC will maybe help, would be easier to test it with full char copy.

i still want melee tougthness to be effective against ranged. Are there any really big issues with it?

My own personal view is that our dmg is at a reasonably acceptable level. Of course everyone would like to see more dmg but I think on a good day - we can do some pretty nice dmg, and you always have to remember bleeds aswell.

The issues that I have are with accuracy and inconsistency of dmg.If there was anything i'd like to see improved it would be our chance to hit, and our average dmg (at master level) Now, often -when other classes seek to criticize, or claim "uberness"in another class - they look at the absolute Best Case, and at our best we do some really nice dmg,the problem is that each time you swing that hammer (the only weapon Iuse as a trando) you can't even begin to guess

1) whether or not you'll hit

2) what kind of dmg you might do.

And when your Not hitting once a second, accuracy and consistency are SOO much more important.

The way things should be is that Slow firing weapons need to hit harder, be more consistant and more accurate. While the weapons that fire every second (or faster if they change the caps) can afford to have a wider range of dmg and a lower chance to hit.

In swg.....I can't help but feel it's backwards.

One other point to consider - if the data from here is to be used in some kind of comparison/balancing with other classes.

We are melee. At the end of the day you could make us able to do 1million dmg/sec - we still have to be stood next to our target to do it - this "disadvantage" is of course, to be expected. But if comparisons are being made between a ranged class and a melee class..... imho the melee SHOULD do more dmg than the ranged, because if you let us get that close, we should have a very good chance of ending it there and then. This is the offset for the disadvantage of only having 1 range. When we're in that range other professions (ranged) Should be afraid.

Ijust wrote a huge thread regarding this matter and when i tried to submit it it all got erased because i had to re-log into the forums. I'll repost here later tonight.

To answer your question real fast Gorecki, Henzo:Do you agreethat this concerns PvP only and that our PvE damage output is fine ?

Yes it is PvP only, but when you say PvP it really means you are comparing our damage to the damage of other professions which is exactly what i'm trying to do, balance us out in regards to the other professions.

Regarding PvE everyone does way to much damage. A CL 50 Gurreck can do 500 dmg every 2 seconds, A master Rifleman can do 3000-4000 damage every second and a Master Commando can do 6000 damage in 1 hit. So a Gurreck at CL 50 ( this is supposed to be a tuffcreature to kill ) with 11000 HAM is dead in 3-4 seconds from a rifleman and in 2 shots from a commando. Thats why there is no high end content in the game, everything is too easy to kill. I'm a Master CH also and with my friend a master commando I can do lvl 100 missions on Dantooine for 40k credits in under 3 minutes (it takes longer to kill the lair than to kill the mobs) So PvE all PC damage is way overpowered. The devs have already stated they have goofed on their high end stuff and made it way to easy, and are looking into making creatures tougher/smarter.

Accuracy is another issue that should be discussed here because even at master swordsman using a powerhammer I still miss about 15-25% of the time depending on who i'm fighting. Note this is PvP. (A Major League Baseball player can hit an object the size of your fist moving at over 90 MPH, how come i can barely hit someone standing right in front of me at Master Swordsman? I use this as an example becase a baseball bat is held in the same way a 2hand weapon is held)

If swordsmanget +20 accuracy and all the other professions get+20 melee defense, are we really getting an improvement to accuracy? Take a closer look at whats going on in test.

Taken from Combat Proposal -Designer notes Sept 18

Melee Damage Output:
I believe that melee damage is too low across the board. I will be investigating move abilities and look into bringing all melee class damage up to a more appropriate level.

(under pikeman)

Problem #2:
Negative to hits at close range for some weapons.

Solution #2:

I don’t like the negative ranges in the slightest bit. I’ll see what I can get changed from the weapon crafting side to negate these modifiers. It will probably be on new weapons only L

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Henzo-Kauri wrote:

Ijust wrote a huge thread regarding this matter and when i tried to submit it it all got erased because i had to re-log into the forums. I'll repost here later tonight.

To answer your question real fast Gorecki, Henzo:Do you agreethat this concerns PvP only and that our PvE damage output is fine ?

Yes it is PvP only, but when you say PvP it really means you are comparing our damage to the damage of other professions which is exactly what i'm trying to do, balance us out in regards to the other professions.

Regarding PvE everyone does way to much damage. A CL 50 Gurreck can do 500 dmg every 2 seconds, A master Rifleman can do 3000-4000 damage every second and a Master Commando can do 6000 damage in 1 hit. So a Gurreck at CL 50 ( this is supposed to be a tuffcreature to kill ) with 11000 HAM is dead in 3-4 seconds from a rifleman and in 2 shots from a commando. Thats why there is no high end content in the game, everything is too easy to kill. I'm a Master CH also and with my friend a master commando I can do lvl 100 missions on Dantooine for 40k credits in under 3 minutes (it takes longer to kill the lair than to kill the mobs) So PvE all PC damage is way overpowered. The devs have already stated they have goofed on their high end stuff and made it way to easy, and are looking into making creatures tougher/smarter.

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Actually, they are looking into ways to "Fix" (ie nerf) you creature handlers because they believe the problem with pve is that ch pets are the tanks. Thankfully for us melee professions they seem to want to make us the tanks, but sadly, they don't seem to know how to do it effectively.

Making monsters ignore tanks will solve nothing because there are no tactics in this game. You can't do special moves to keep the targets attention on you and you can't do crowd control so that only leaves zerging with ch pets (lol).

I have just started the swordsman skill tree not even a novice yet. I am also a master commando.

Just want to give a word of warning to everyone. Be careful what stats you give the devs. I have seen and its been reported that a masterswordsman can take out an atst in 3 hits. I as a master commando cant even do that.

In PvP the only class of character that any brawler stands a chance against if the battle plan is thought is the commando. Its because the ranges on both classes attacks are very close to the same. 16 meters for commando and 6 for swordsman. The 2.5x melee damage multiplier on the commando makes it a very fair fight when facing a brawler. This is because the amount of misses commandos have and the amount of misses brawlers have other than the TKA who as far as I can tell never miss.

My question and this is a serious question. Should a brawler of any skill level be equal to that of any single other proffesion in PvP. I do not think so because of the fact there are guns in the game. Now I do believe that a brawler when and if they get up close and personal should be something to be feared by all classes.

So give swordsman knockdown and greater attack % at close range. I think a +40% would equal things out.

Reasons for this:

1) when single PvP it should be tactics that win.

2) When group PvP tactics do count but there are enough combatants that a swordsman can get close to other players to do damage.

I say this from experience. As a master commandoin single PvP against any class I will loose 9 times out of 10. In groups PvP I usually win 9-10 times until fire is focused on me. So check out group PvP and single PvP before giving any info. You might find as I have that its actually balanced and with knockdown for swordsman added and a +40% to attack it will equal things out and fix a semi broke proffesion.

i honestly dont know how a swordsman could possibly take an at-st in three hits. i am almost master and i still have trouble killing storm/scout/dark troopers in pve one on one. even though i can kill them in two or three hits... or if i get one to kneeling, and get a 9k mind hit in. but unless an at-st can be knocked down i doubt very much that a swordsman could take one in three hits. i could possibly be mistaken though.