Swordsman Archive

*laughs* I love posts like that.

*whispers* Although to be honest, he's right—TKA really isn't all that. There's a reason the ability I use most often from TKA is meditate…the rest I only use when I'm bored, or acting as 100% backup, otherwise it's hammer & scythe all the way.

I agree with it till he gets to the professions.

Master Fencer normally crafted stun batons have low max damage and 0 AP. Even a acklay baton (which I have) still falls for armor piercing 50% reduction if you wear stun layered armor... which is becoming common place.

Master Swordsman cannot attack at the same speed as a TKA without over +20 in attachments, or using a speed sliced scythe. And they are absolutly joking about accuracy being equal between TKA and swordman. The weapon accuracy mods are the same, but 130 does not equal 205.

Pikeman even without good attachments can be a lot more powerful than you think. They have the most common DOT loot drops of any professions. Wait till you have mind flame + mind poison + mind disease applied to you by a skilled pikeman. My Master Fencer/TKM friend got a major ass whooping by one in PVP, it wasn't pretty.

- MilleniX

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MilleniX wrote:

I agree with it till he gets to the professions.

Master Fencer normally crafted stun batons have low max damage and 0 AP. Even a acklay baton (which I have) still falls for armor piercing 50% reduction if you wear stun layered armor... which is becoming common place.

Master Swordsman cannot attack at the same speed as a TKA without over +20 in attachments, or using a speed sliced scythe. And they are absolutly joking about accuracy being equal between TKA and swordman. The weapon accuracy mods are the same, but 130 does not equal 205.

Pikeman even without good attachments can be a lot more powerful than you think. They have the most common DOT loot drops of any professions. Wait till you have mind flame + mind poison + mind disease applied to you by a skilled pikeman. My Master Fencer/TKM friend got a major ass whooping by one in PVP, it wasn't pretty.

- MilleniX

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Thats my biggest problem with pikes, I WANT to see them fixed, I WANT to see them brought up to the levels of the other melee classes BUT thye need to lose the common looted DOT pikes at the same time. A decent pikeman in PvP knowns all he has to do is learn how to stay alive as long as possible, if they can stay alive for 20 seconds they win.

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MilleniX wrote:

I agree with it till he gets to the professions.

Master Fencer normally crafted stun batons have low max damage and 0 AP. Even a acklay baton (which I have) still falls for armor piercing 50% reduction if you wear stun layered armor... which is becoming common place.

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Still a little better than 80% kinetic composite, which IS commmon. Or 90% kinetic composite which I wear. Plus, stun batons have a very tight damage range, and a min damage close to 200, I believe, unsliced (or was that sliced, I can't quite remember). So mitigation has only a marginal effect as compared to a VK with about 67-147 damage (of course we need to add in the damage modifier of +250 for TKM's after the mitigated range is calculated). VK's are still technically higher in damage but then if you take into consideration the +74 melee defence, +69 ranged defence, +105 Dodge,, +115 CoB Efficacy,+90 speed, +170 accuracy..and so on of a pure fencer without taking into consideration a secondary profession...

Point : It kinda hard to do damage when you don't land a blow...

Also, the best stun armour on Eclipse is 35% stun protection, so against an AP0 weapon, the total protection is 43.75%, not 50%.

Point : 6.25% additional damage may not be significant as a number, but multiply that with the average damage of your stun baton, and the 60 strokes per sec fencers are capable of even without a speed sliced weapon and...

The fencers are not complaining about not being able to beat a TKM. They're mostly complaining about not doing enough damage. Then again, if we gave them the same damage, would they be willing to part with their defences in exchange?

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Master Swordsman cannot attack at the same speed as a TKA without over +20 in attachments, or using a speed sliced scythe. And they are absolutly joking about accuracy being equal between TKA and swordman. The weapon accuracy mods are the same, but 130 does not equal 205.

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Firstly, I am also a MHS. Master Swordsmen hit the speed cap on a 5.4-5.8 speed power hammer with a speed modifier of +93. That's +18 above their inherent +75 speed modifier. They hit speed cap with a decent scythe (2.6 speed is common) at around +86. That's +11 (9x2H speed+1 in armour, one in a belt and one in a shirt), or +6 for a MHS/MB. Not so difficult. I bought a lot of my sea's on the bazaar. So, you can hit speed cap with a damaged sliced Scythe quite easily.

Point : A Scythe quite easily matches a VK wielded by a TKM. All that is required is some effort on the part of the Swordsman to improve himself with things available in the game...

Accuracy, I am not sure. Can anyone point me to the formula for accuracy calculations? And does anyone know if any figure for accuracy above +100 or +125 has any meaning?

Point : So far, no known calculation in SWG, whether it's speed or dps, has been linear. The curves can be viewed at http://killyourpc.org/swg/speedguide.html. Unless otherwise stated, it would be simplistic to assume that the relationship between +205 and +130 speed is. This is the same argument that is so common on the TK boards, when some troll comes out with "BUT YOU HAVE +115 SPEED...IT'S NOT FAIR!"...

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Pikeman even without good attachments can be a lot more powerful than you think. They have the most common DOT loot drops of any professions. Wait till you have mind flame + mind poison + mind disease applied to you by a skilled pikeman. My Master Fencer/TKM friend got a major ass whooping by one in PVP, it wasn't pretty.

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Then they should not be crying all the time about how broken their profession is. Especially, they shouldn't be doing it on other profession boards.

You use an interesting word here that I can only agree with...the word "skilled"...

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Defconn wrote:

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MilleniX wrote:

I agree with it till he gets to the professions.

Master Fencer normally crafted stun batons have low max damage and 0 AP. Even a acklay baton (which I have) still falls for armor piercing 50% reduction if you wear stun layered armor... which is becoming common place.

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Still a little better than 80% kinetic composite, which IS commmon. Or 90% kinetic composite which I wear. Plus, stun batons have a very tight damage range, and a min damage close to 200, I believe, unsliced (or was that sliced, I can't quite remember). So mitigation has only a marginal effect as compared to a VK with about 67-147 damage (of course we need to add in the damage modifier of +250 for TKM's after the mitigated range is calculated). VK's are still technically higher in damage but then if you take into consideration the +74 melee defence, +69 ranged defence, +105 Dodge,, +115 CoB Efficacy,+90 speed, +170 accuracy..and so on of a pure fencer without taking into consideration a secondary profession...

The Only way to achieve minimum damage of 200 with a stun baton is using acklay. If we're going to compare apples to apples, then a standard crafted baton is 89 min 133 max. Hardly 200 min. VK's on the other hand have 37 min - 147 max. calculate that with unarmed damage at master, that is 287 - 397. As for the accuracy of Master Fencer vs a TKM at +205 unarmed accuracy, they don't miss much...

Point : It kinda hard to do damage when you don't land a blow...

Also, the best stun armour on Eclipse is 35% stun protection, so against an AP0 weapon, the total protection is 43.75%, not 50%.

Point : 6.25% additional damage may not be significant as a number, but multiply that with the average damage of your stun baton, and the 60 strokes per sec fencers are capable of even without a speed sliced weapon and...

The fencers are not complaining about not being able to beat a TKM. They're mostly complaining about not doing enough damage. Then again, if we gave them the same damage, would they be willing to part with their defences in exchange?

Lets talk about Armor. If someone is wearing a 35% damage chest plate, they also recieve a 50% bonus do to Armor Resistance now applying. Stun Batons are AP0 so this applies to them.

We'll use the number 100 as this is easier to calculate.

100 X .50 = 50 (50 damage now done after amor piercing is calculated)
50*.35 = 17.5 (17.5 damage after protection of 35% is calculated)
100% - 17.5% = 82.5%.

So with 35% protection, you now have 82.5% protection against a stun baton. Also the speed cap on all weapons is 1/second. 60 strokes per second is not going to be happening.

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Master Swordsman cannot attack at the same speed as a TKA without over +20 in attachments, or using a speed sliced scythe. And they are absolutly joking about accuracy being equal between TKA and swordman. The weapon accuracy mods are the same, but 130 does not equal 205.

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Firstly, I am also a MHS. Master Swordsmen hit the speed cap on a 5.4-5.8 speed power hammer with a speed modifier of +93. That's +18 above their inherent +75 speed modifier. They hit speed cap with a decent scythe (2.6 speed is common) at around +86. That's +11 (9x2H speed+1 in armour, one in a belt and one in a shirt), or +6 for a MHS/MB. Not so difficult. I bought a lot of my sea's on the bazaar. So, you can hit speed cap with a damaged sliced Scythe quite easily.

Point : A Scythe quite easily matches a VK wielded by a TKM. All that is required is some effort on the part of the Swordsman to improve himself with things available in the game...

Accuracy, I am not sure. Can anyone point me to the formula for accuracy calculations? And does anyone know if any figure for accuracy above +100 or +125 has any meaning?

Point : So far, no known calculation in SWG, whether it's speed or dps, has been linear. The curves can be viewed at http://killyourpc.org/swg/speedguide.html. Unless otherwise stated, it would be simplistic to assume that the relationship between +205 and +130 speed is. This is the same argument that is so common on the TK boards, when some troll comes out with "BUT YOU HAVE +115 SPEED...IT'S NOT FAIR!"...

I agree thata scythe can be as powerful as a VK with speed attachments. No doubt about that, if you read in another post I stated that any person with any profession can kick ass in pvp... its all in preperation and skill. I simply stated that without attachments, swordsman are not at the same level in accuracy and speed. Although a Scythe has the same accuracy mods, the profession does not. The original poster compared the 2 on the same level... I just made it clear that they are not.

This profession has its strong points, and its weak points like all others... My comparisons make it clear that TKA's are not gimped.

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Pikeman even without good attachments can be a lot more powerful than you think. They have the most common DOT loot drops of any professions. Wait till you have mind flame + mind poison + mind disease applied to you by a skilled pikeman. My Master Fencer/TKM friend got a major ass whooping by one in PVP, it wasn't pretty.

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Then they should not be crying all the time about how broken their profession is. Especially, they shouldn't be doing it on other profession boards.

You use an interesting word here that I can only agree with...the word "skilled"...

Pikeman are upset because without using looted DOT weapons they are in fact gimped. The problem lies in the fact that when their profession is boosted, they will still have these awesome DOT weapons. This could easily cause a FOTM to come if they do recieve substantial improvements. My statement is that Pikeman are not currently as gimped in pvp as many think.

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*Edit for incompetence... lol

Message Edited by MilleniX on 04-22-2004 11:48 AM

Ok...let's talk real mathematics here...

a) Stun Batons vs Vibro-Knucklers. You are right about the standard stun baton. It is around 89-133,in damage and 2.6 in speed. BUT I made some once using looted Geonosian cores or +70/+70. They're not really that rare, and I have a few more sets actually that are going into some hammers. Since a standard reinforcement core on Eclipse is about +40/+40, this is a 30 point damage increase. BUT comparing apples to apples, let's take your basic stun baton.

Stun Baton : 89 - 133, 2.6with a 25% damage slice corresponds to a damage range of 111 - 166, 2.6. At mitigation 3, this would correspond to a damage range of 111 - 133. Since all Master Fencers hit speed cap with any weapon rated 4.0 and below, we can safely assume that this weapon will be wielded at 60 strokes per minute (yes, I did make a mistake in my earlier post. I meant per minute, and not per second, but you knew that... ) Using your basic damage formula, or the nice calculators found at http://www.subterrane.com/swgcalcs.shtml, with 1HHit3, this would correspond to a dps of 122 (average weapon dps) x 1.86 (successful hit multiplier)x 1.5 (damage output bonus)x Specials Damage Multiplier = 122 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 5 or1701.9 points of damage per sec. Not truly fantastic, but not low either.

Factor in the AR0 of the weapon vs AR1 of Composite, this results in a reductionin damage of 50% (ref. Advanced Guide, Armour Fundamentals).

...bringing our normal, average damage sliced stun baton to a dps of850.95 points of damage per sec.

...now, factoring in 35% stun layers protection which is becoming common, this gives us a figure of 553.12 points of damage per sec. Still let's face it. Barely 10% of all the composite on Eclipse is stun layered, so this will probably only apply in about 3 - 6 months or so.

*Note : All data, multipliers, etc. referenced from the Fencer's FAQ on the Fencers' Forum.

Vibro-Knuckler : 37 - 147, 2.2 with a 25% damage slice would correspond to a damage range of 46-184. At Mitigation 3, plus the TKM's special damage add of 250, this would correspond to a damage range of296 - 351 (a most impressive set of numbers, but that's all it is...an impressive set of numbers as later calculations will reveal). Again, speed is not an issue to a TKM, so we can safely assume that this weapon will be wielded at 1 stroke per second. Using UHeadHit1 (the most common and logical TK attack in PvP), this would correspond to a dps of 323.5 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 2.5 or2256.41 points of damage per second.

AR is not an issue as the VK is an AR1 weapon, so factoring in Composite armour, dps remains at 2256.41 dps.

Now, let's take into consideration Kinetic resist armour. Most PvP armour on Eclipse is 35% stun resist, with an average of 85% base (including kinetic). I wear a 90% base suit, but this is not common. Eclipse PvP'ers on this board can provide support to this data. Let us factor in 85%kinetic resist then to the dps of the weapon. This will give us a figure of 338.46 points of damage per second.

Assuming that I use the most devastating attack of the TKM which is UHit3, that has a damage multiplier of 4.0 (but targets the health pool so no experienced PvP'er will ever use it in PvP), using the same parameters as above, we will come up with figure of 541.54 points of damage per second.

Ok...let's assume that people cannot afford 85% base composite as after all, slices are random, but 80% composite IS common and fairly affordable. This brings the damage dealt by this VK in the hands of a TKM to 451.28 and 722.05 for UHeadHit1 and UHit3 respectively.

Please check the math and tell me where I went wrong. I was under the impression that TKM's were Gods in PvP but the difference does not seem to be exceptionally significant...

b) Accuracy. I still haven't found the math for Accuracy measurements, nor any reference as to whether any number above +100 for accuracy has any meaning. Nor has anyone pointed me in the direction of this formula. Until there is a reference, we are simply assuming that +205 vs +170 is anything more than a numerically larger number. It's easy to test. Just line up a Master Fencer against maybe a Master of any non-combat profession(fully buffed and does no specials whatsoever, and non-combat so that we can limit the effect of defensive modifiers) and count the number of times he misses per minute. Do the same with a TKM vs the sametarget. I doubt if you will find a difference. But if you do, I would really like to have the data.

c) Attachments. It is hard to imagine anyone these days fighting without attachements. They are simply the game's way of giving the different professions a chance to patch their weaknesses. So yes, when I fight as a TKM, I do not equip myself with speed and accuracy sea's. But you can bet I'm loaded with def vs KD, def vs dizzy, def vs stun among other things. Those are MY weaknesses.

I am also a MHS, and when I fight as a MHS, I don't use "def vs" sea's but I have +23 additional speed modifiers in total. Also an additional +25 Intimidation, cos if I can reduce the damage done to me, it's the same as being able to do more damage. Hence, the simple message here is that if you do not make the effort to patch the holes in your defence or attack with what is made available to all by the game, you can't blame anyone if you are easily defeated. There are also many ways to make yourself more effective and raw speed and damage are simply the more obvious.

d) Pikemen in actuality have it easy in the area of weapons. Every time I go hunting elders, I bring back at least 1 uber LVA. So, even without the combat balancing, should they elect to cap their speed with cheap sea's (and believe me, since everyone is under the impression that Pikemen are gimped, Pike speed sea's are almost thrown away most times), they would be quite a manageable profession. On this point, I do agree with you.

Message Edited by Defconn on 04-23-2004 05:14 AM

Message Edited by MilleniX on 04-22-2004 03:10 PM

One more edit to add in fix to my above flaw.

AP to AR damage reduction

100 * .5 = 50 (50% reduction)

50 *.35 = 17.5 (35% reduction)

50 - 17.5 = 32.5 (damage done to target after resists)

67.5% total resists using 35% stun armor

[ 40% stun armor = 70% resists to baton ]
[ 42% stun armor = 71% resists to baton ]

My calculations above simply show the fallacy in the argument that fencers are weak...especially in the arena of PvP.

a) If we take out stun layered armour, a valid argument since stun layered armour is really a minority armour right now whereas kinetic armour is the majority, fencers do more dps. Even if they did an equal amount of damage, they still get hit less times, making the speed argument against tkm's still valid, but what is the use of hitting air?

b) Everyone moans about the 250 damage addition to tkm's max and min damages, making even the mitigated damage range of the VK so impressive. Yet, when you factor in armour resists...vk's doonly marginallymore damage than a stun baton in reality. Less even if stun layered composite is not taken into consideration. TKA's have always said it. This calculation proves it. +250 damage is vastly over-rated for PvP.

c) My stats show a marginal dps advantage of VK's vs stun batons only if I am generous in my assumptions that people don't protect themselves sufficiently against us with the best kinetic armour there is. In my 90% armour...I could just stand there, take blows from a tkm and laugh it off... Also, I find it hard to believe that most composite out there is not high in kinetic resists because not only are they available from all Armourers, most mobs do Kinetic damage. It would be a naive player indeed who didn't look for the best kinetic composite he could buy.

d) So you spend points getting meditate. A wise move indeed. In the same way, I spend points getting fencer defences, which I don't have even though I am both TKM and MHS. And we all know how uber we are with, how did someone once put it..."the best defences in the game". Hmmm....+5 def vs dizzy, +10 def vs blind, +15 def vs stun. Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the higher the number, the better the stat...

So, you waste some points, and I waste some points. Is this not fair?

e) 40% stun armour does not exist on my server, so in my environment, your damage reduction figure is invalid. Also, stun protection has already been taken into consideration in my calculations above.

Message Edited by Defconn on 04-23-2004 05:59 AM

I have yet to say fencer is weak. I have also yet to say TKA is dominant. I am trying to prove that Fencer is not vastly overpowered vs TKA as you so stated in your initial post which was quoted in this forum.

a: If you are not wearing stun armor in pvp, then you are currently setting yourself up to be attacked by a stun weapon... its no better than not wearing high kinetic composite... no one said pvp was cheap. TKA accuracy vs Fencer defenses, does not mean TKA will be hitting air... TKA will rarely miss vs Fencer and vice versa applies. TKM vs blademaster are always good duels if both opponents are properly prepared. I dueled a TKM last night using stun armor, it came down to better use of state applieing effects, and a mind DOT weapon.

b: no one here stated 250 damage was vastly overpowering. Those who do elsewhere are retards, I've beena TKM and I know its abilities and weaknesses. TKA has its strong points just like Fencer, Swordsman, and Pikeman

c: You being a TKM and obviously a avid PVPer after the biggest advantage with the 90% armor and such... (as am I), if you are trying to state TKM is at such a big disadvantge... why keep the skills? Because it does have its advantages, and its disadvantages. You are currently wanting to list only the latter, not the former. The profession is in balance, and will be more so with the introduction of an alternate damage type soon.

d: Me saying that I dabble in TKA, and you saying you dabble in Fencer makes it clear that both professions are highly useful both for having, and for dabbling... we're on the same path here, just agree with me on that.

e: 40% stun armor does exist, I listed it as an alternate stat for those who were courious. I used your 35% number as my intial stat.

My summary of this entire thread:

2 minds collide to say the same thing to eachother in different ways, when in reality they both agree.

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Defconn wrote:

b) Everyone moans about the 250 damage addition to tkm's max and min damages, making even the mitigated damage range of the VK so impressive. Yet, when you factor in armour resists...vk's do only marginally more damage than a stun baton in reality. Less even if stun layered composite is not taken into consideration. TKA's have always said it. This calculation proves it. +250 damage is vastly over-rated for PvP.

c) My stats show a marginal dps advantage of VK's vs stun batons only if I am generous in my assumptions that people don't protect themselves sufficiently against us with the best kinetic armour there is. In my 90% armour...I could just stand there, take blows from a tkm and laugh it off... Also, I find it hard to believe that most composite out there is not high in kinetic resists because not only are they available from all Armourers, most mobs do Kinetic damage. It would be a naive player indeed who didn't look for the best kinetic composite he could buy.

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To extend this: Aside from the stun baton, only the scythe comes close in comparison with the VKs in PvP against 90% base armor because of it's closer min-max range. The min-max range of the LVA (kinetic, resistsed 90%), VL (electricity, resisted 77%) and PH (blast, resisted 90%) put them below the VK in terms of pvp dps.

Assume all are speed capped with attachments and hit against the same 85% base 77% electricity 35% stun armor above. You have VKs doing 338.46 uheadhit1 dps / 541.54 hit3 dps

LVA: 110-380 with 25% damage slice = 110-475 = 110-256 with melee mitigation 3.
Against the same 85% armor = 183 * 1.25 * 1.86 * 1.5 * 3.0 (ph3 mod) = 287 hit3 dps
Against the same 85% armor = 183 * 1.25 * 1.86 * 1.5 * 2.5 = 239 leghit3 dps

VL: 100-310 with 25% dmg slice = 100-388 = 100-215 with melee mitigation 3.
Against the same 85%/77% armor = 158 * 1.86 * 1.5 * 3.0 (ph3 mod) = 304 hit3 dps
Against the same 85%/77% armor = 158 * 1.86 * 1.5 * 2.5 = 253.5 leghit3 dps

PH: 135-455 with 25% damage slice = 135-569 = 135-309 with melee mitigation 3.
Against the same 85% armor = 222 * 1.25 * 1.86 * 1.5 * 4.0 = 465 hit3 dps
Against the same 85% armor = 222 * 1.25 * 1.86 * 1.5 * 3.5 = 406 headhit3 dps * here the ph wins out, but accuracy will decrease this value some.

So, even though TKAs are taken down quite a bit with this high resist armor, due to mitigation, they are less effected than almost all the rest of the melee weapons. (not including scythe and stun baton, these are pretty much even)

antares
master pikeman

Millenix - we do agree on most points. Only 1 comment. I've been a TKM since launch NOT because it was so powerful and was the fotm, but because I am a black belt in rl and this is a profession I can truly relate to.

Macross - ROFL! You know me too well... But lately I've been dabbling in PvP...er...well, a little more than dabbling, actually, which is why I am wearing 90% resist armour these days... I actually decided to let the planets repopulate a little before I go off on my next hunt.

Antares - Good statistics which should be shoved under the noses of the devs.

But I think you made 1 mistake. According to the Pikemen's Forum, PLegHit3 has a damage modifier of 3.0 and not 2.5.

Also, Weaponsmiths hardly ever sell Polearm weapons these days because they are so available as drops with dots and other modifiers, plus some nice damage. I have kept 2 to sell, both with max damages of around 180 - 650, unsliced (acquired on the only 2 hunting trips I made to Dath last month, where I was actually searching for leathers, but stumbled upon some Elders instead). Since there is no "average" figure for the values of these dots, it is difficult to factor into calculations. BUT it is NOT difficult to have a dot VL and a dot LVA on the quickbar with a macro to apply the dots.

Finally, the power-hammer. I frown at people going after the highest max damage power-hammers on the market for millions, though at one time, I was one of them. Consider the following :

I made 3 types of power-hammers, one using your basic formula of maximized damage, one using a looted geonosian reinforcement core of min 55/max 35, and one using again basic materials but maximizing out ranges. The stats are as follows :

1. Maximized Damage : 147-468, 5.3, Ranges -28/-28/-28

2. Geonosian Cored : 162-463, 5.3, Ranges -31/-1/-31

3. Maximized Accuracy : 115-438, 5.8, Ranges -7/-7/-7

Let's use your very same parameters of 85% base armour, 25% slice and mitigation 3.

1. Maximized Damage Hammer DPS for 2HHit3 = 264.0 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 4 x 1.25 x 0.15 = 552.42 DPS

Maximized Famage Hammer DPS for 2HHeadHit3 = 264.0 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 3.5 x 1.25 x 0.15 = 483.37 DPS

2. Geonosian Cored Hammer DPS for 2HHit3 = 277.8 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 4.0 x 1.25 x 0.15 = 581.3 DPS

Geonosian Cored Hammer DPS for 2HHeadHit3 = 277.8 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 3.5 x 1.25 x 0.15 = 508.6 DPS

3. Maximized Accuracy Hammer DPS for 2HHit3 = 253.3 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 4.0 x 1.25 x 0.15 = 530.0 DPS

Maximized Accuracy Hammer DPS for 2HeadHit3 = 253.3 x 1.86 x 1.5 x 3.5 x 1.25 x 0.15 = 463.75 DPS

Looking at the numbers above, we can see that Max Damage means little in PvP. The Geo Hammer is by far my favourite. However, if Geo Cores are not available, my second hammer would be the Max Accuracy one, as there is a lot of difference (in use, as we have no formula to calculate just how much more accurate we are) between -7 to ranges and -28.