Swordsman Archive
Thread: Combat Balance Delays
Page 1 of 4
StGabriel
Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:09 pm
#1
As can be read here here, the combat balance is being delayed until such time as they have all of the dev staff back from JTL.
This is of course rather a large disappointment. I'm taking it particularly hard as I've been working on this stuff for a long time now. I'll spare you those details though.
Right now I see my job getting whatever I can get in the meanwhile. There does look to be some possibility to push concerns on vital issues before the full rebalance.
Go ahead and give me any comments you have on what you think should be stressed. What balance issues need to be fixed while we wait. What small changes seem feasible? The best answers are going to be well-thought out small changes that might help things out significantly in the short-term. I've been working overtime trying to come up with some ideas and get some movement organized despite the delay that was announced. I'm hoping we can still get some stuff.
So whatcha guys got?
StGabe.
This is of course rather a large disappointment. I'm taking it particularly hard as I've been working on this stuff for a long time now. I'll spare you those details though.
Right now I see my job getting whatever I can get in the meanwhile. There does look to be some possibility to push concerns on vital issues before the full rebalance.
Go ahead and give me any comments you have on what you think should be stressed. What balance issues need to be fixed while we wait. What small changes seem feasible? The best answers are going to be well-thought out small changes that might help things out significantly in the short-term. I've been working overtime trying to come up with some ideas and get some movement organized despite the delay that was announced. I'm hoping we can still get some stuff.
So whatcha guys got?
StGabe.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 07-16-2004 05:47 AM
SlippMercato
Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:20 pm
#2
Personally, I think Swordsman is a great profession the way it is. Whoever wants to flame, feel free, but if you read the forums with any regularity there isn't much complaining on here.
The only thing that you can complain about is the lack of moves and not having a "sword" as an elite weapon.
Another thing that I would love to see implemented is that each melee profession should have a line that is like the TKA meditate line... where-in we gain some ablilties. For example, and I'm just going with the first thing that comes to me, it would be nice if swordsman had a 10 minute "rage" period. Much like the powerboost of TKA, but wherein we get a significant boost to attack speed and an added damage multiplier (based on level), but with the downside being an decrease in defenses.
I dunno, honestly I just can't think of anything bad about swordsman other than what's mentioned above.
StGabriel
Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:29 pm
#3
FWIW, here is a list of things I have already submitted. These are the things that are mostly specific to Swordsman. Ideally I'm hoping that the correspondents will get to submit some more overarching suggestions as well or push for balance on the larger systems.
Knockdown Stacking
Problem: When a player is knocked down, and another player knocks them down again, they immediately stand up. This is assumed to be a bug with the KD timer -- an incorrect reaction to a second KD during the timer period. This adds an extra difficult to knocking targets down that shouldn't be there, especially for group situations.
Solution: Repeated knockdowns should not cancel prior ones. They should simply fail to work if they are done during the timer period.
Counterattack Doesn't
Problem: Counterattack, as advertised, should provide an attack against the target who was just countered. At present it does not do this.
Solution: Add a true counterattack to this ability.
Bleed Damage
Problem: Bleeds were nerfed, appropriately, from their prior standing as very strong elements of combat. This problem is not an attempt to disagree with that decision, indeed it is admitted that it was likely necessary, but to address problems with the detials of that nerf. The problem was that bleeds were not resisted and allowed damage while not actively engaged in the risks of combat. The practical result of the changes to bleeds however has been that bleeds were nerfed too far (for Swordsman at least) and general advice is that they should never be used -- in either PvE or PvP. This has removed one of our interesting tools from combat.
Solution: A solution to this problem would be to increase damage on bleeds and allow unlimited stacking, but to keep damage bounded by the repeated attacks and the sorts of damage that a regular attack does. A procedure for doing this:
Bleed Experience
Problem:Another issue that is tied to the above issue is that bleeds do not yield experience. In a game system where all experience is based on damage, this makes bleeds largely useless for mastering of a profession.
Solution: If bleeds ever are to be meaningful again, we'll need some way for them to yield experience as well.
Lag Issues with Targetting
Problem: Melee players have found it very hard to target moving targets. Due to fundemental lag issues, targets that display as right next to a melee player are often in fact out of range. This causes players following their targets to be unable to hit despite keeping quite close on their client
Interim Solution: An interim solution was created where melee players were given an increased ranged when using specials (but not normal attacks). This gives melee players a larger radius thus making them less sensitive to range issues.
Problems with the Interim Solution: There are two issues with this interim solution. The first is that it still does not always work. Melee players still find themselves following "ghosts" of players and receiving "out of range" messages when they are doing everything right on their end. The second issue is that the increased ranged of melee attacks is unrealistic and cuts into the ranged increments of pistoleers and other ranged combatants.
Solution: In order to remove this issue AND remove the contention with ranged combatants we think that this issue should be tackled with a more technical solution. The /follow command should operate on a server-side basis. The player's movement should be updated server-side so as to accurately follow the target and remain within melee range. After this is introduced, the prior range bonuses for melee specials can be revoked thus giving ranged players a more realistic range again.
Scythe Quest Issues
Problem: The scythe is only available through quests. It is the one completely new weapon that is not available through some mechanism that is renewable. Players can do the known scythe quests twice and then no knew scythes will be available to them. Non-swordsmen can get schematics and trade them but this is not a renewable source of schematics either as they too can only do this once.
Solution: Introduce a quest or drop for the scythe schematic that is renewable, that is, that can through hard work, be accessed repeatedly. Even if this were only something to be "camped" it would be an improvement. One suggestion would be to add Scythe Schematics to the loot tables for Singing Mountain Clan or Nightsister NPCs. These could be rare and still this would allow a new venue for obtaining scythes.
Damage Mitigation Issues
Problem: This is a reminder more than anything. TH stated in a thread about Jedi that, "Melee mitigation is going away for PvP for everyone very soon. We are evaluating alternate ways to make the Defense Tree more desirable". This is fantastic news as mitigation is something that Swordsman have had problems with for quite some time. We were told long ago that the problems were understood and would be addressed in the Combat Balance, which of course is now delayed.
Solution: The solution is of course, just make sure this does indeed happen. Hopefully it's an easy change and is not something that would have to wait for the rest of
the combat balance. Mitigation was originally intended for PvE more than PvP anyway.
Lack of Variety in Swordsmen Specials
Problem: Yes, this is something for the combat balance, but I mention it as it is almost always the #1 complaint of Swordsmen and might have some interim solutions. Swordsmen have seven AE attacks and at best they might use two of these. In general Swordsmen tend to use only mindhit3 unless grouped with people who cannot hit mind when they use hit3.
Solution: Give a stun effect to one of our area attacks thus giving new reason to use more than one AE. Improve bleeds as suggested above so as to put them back into the Swordsmen toolkit. Consider the introduction of some new special bonuses, such as an AP bonus, attacks with large bonuses to hit (and a lower overall damage), etc. Many more suggestions are in the Swordsmen "vision" document. In general this is not a search for more power, it is a search for more options so that more than one or two specials are actually viable in combat.
Lack of Variety in Swordsmen Weapons
Problem: Yes, this is something for the combat balance, but I mention it as it is almost always the #2 complaint of Swordsmen and might have some interim solutions. Swordsmen have 5 weapons that are of kinetic damage type and are medium armor-piercing. In the current combat system there is no compelling reason to use any but the best of these.
Solution: In some manner give more meaning to some of these weapons. The easiest manner for doing this would be the introduction of an AP3 weapon or a weapon with a new damage type. This would ideally occur on one of our less used and less viable weapons (such as the cleaver, 2h Axe or Executioner's Hack) so as to create a tradeoff without necessarily introducing a dramatic increase in power.
Knockdown Stacking
Problem: When a player is knocked down, and another player knocks them down again, they immediately stand up. This is assumed to be a bug with the KD timer -- an incorrect reaction to a second KD during the timer period. This adds an extra difficult to knocking targets down that shouldn't be there, especially for group situations.
Solution: Repeated knockdowns should not cancel prior ones. They should simply fail to work if they are done during the timer period.
Counterattack Doesn't
Problem: Counterattack, as advertised, should provide an attack against the target who was just countered. At present it does not do this.
Solution: Add a true counterattack to this ability.
Bleed Damage
Problem: Bleeds were nerfed, appropriately, from their prior standing as very strong elements of combat. This problem is not an attempt to disagree with that decision, indeed it is admitted that it was likely necessary, but to address problems with the detials of that nerf. The problem was that bleeds were not resisted and allowed damage while not actively engaged in the risks of combat. The practical result of the changes to bleeds however has been that bleeds were nerfed too far (for Swordsman at least) and general advice is that they should never be used -- in either PvE or PvP. This has removed one of our interesting tools from combat.
Solution: A solution to this problem would be to increase damage on bleeds and allow unlimited stacking, but to keep damage bounded by the repeated attacks and the sorts of damage that a regular attack does. A procedure for doing this:
- Take the DPS multiplers for existing specials that should be shadowed by bleeds. For Swordsmen this would be mindhit1-mindhit3.
- Multiply these by a margin of 1.25 to 2.0.
- Divide this by the number of ticks that a bleed has.
- Apply this amount of bleed damage, applying the first tick right away.
- Allow stacking of these bleeds. Each additional bleed from the same player, or another, increases the overall bleeding of the target.
- Bleeds should be affected by resists.
Bleed Experience
Problem:Another issue that is tied to the above issue is that bleeds do not yield experience. In a game system where all experience is based on damage, this makes bleeds largely useless for mastering of a profession.
Solution: If bleeds ever are to be meaningful again, we'll need some way for them to yield experience as well.
Lag Issues with Targetting
Problem: Melee players have found it very hard to target moving targets. Due to fundemental lag issues, targets that display as right next to a melee player are often in fact out of range. This causes players following their targets to be unable to hit despite keeping quite close on their client
Interim Solution: An interim solution was created where melee players were given an increased ranged when using specials (but not normal attacks). This gives melee players a larger radius thus making them less sensitive to range issues.
Problems with the Interim Solution: There are two issues with this interim solution. The first is that it still does not always work. Melee players still find themselves following "ghosts" of players and receiving "out of range" messages when they are doing everything right on their end. The second issue is that the increased ranged of melee attacks is unrealistic and cuts into the ranged increments of pistoleers and other ranged combatants.
Solution: In order to remove this issue AND remove the contention with ranged combatants we think that this issue should be tackled with a more technical solution. The /follow command should operate on a server-side basis. The player's movement should be updated server-side so as to accurately follow the target and remain within melee range. After this is introduced, the prior range bonuses for melee specials can be revoked thus giving ranged players a more realistic range again.
Scythe Quest Issues
Problem: The scythe is only available through quests. It is the one completely new weapon that is not available through some mechanism that is renewable. Players can do the known scythe quests twice and then no knew scythes will be available to them. Non-swordsmen can get schematics and trade them but this is not a renewable source of schematics either as they too can only do this once.
Solution: Introduce a quest or drop for the scythe schematic that is renewable, that is, that can through hard work, be accessed repeatedly. Even if this were only something to be "camped" it would be an improvement. One suggestion would be to add Scythe Schematics to the loot tables for Singing Mountain Clan or Nightsister NPCs. These could be rare and still this would allow a new venue for obtaining scythes.
Damage Mitigation Issues
Problem: This is a reminder more than anything. TH stated in a thread about Jedi that, "Melee mitigation is going away for PvP for everyone very soon. We are evaluating alternate ways to make the Defense Tree more desirable". This is fantastic news as mitigation is something that Swordsman have had problems with for quite some time. We were told long ago that the problems were understood and would be addressed in the Combat Balance, which of course is now delayed.
Solution: The solution is of course, just make sure this does indeed happen. Hopefully it's an easy change and is not something that would have to wait for the rest of
the combat balance. Mitigation was originally intended for PvE more than PvP anyway.
Lack of Variety in Swordsmen Specials
Problem: Yes, this is something for the combat balance, but I mention it as it is almost always the #1 complaint of Swordsmen and might have some interim solutions. Swordsmen have seven AE attacks and at best they might use two of these. In general Swordsmen tend to use only mindhit3 unless grouped with people who cannot hit mind when they use hit3.
Solution: Give a stun effect to one of our area attacks thus giving new reason to use more than one AE. Improve bleeds as suggested above so as to put them back into the Swordsmen toolkit. Consider the introduction of some new special bonuses, such as an AP bonus, attacks with large bonuses to hit (and a lower overall damage), etc. Many more suggestions are in the Swordsmen "vision" document. In general this is not a search for more power, it is a search for more options so that more than one or two specials are actually viable in combat.
Lack of Variety in Swordsmen Weapons
Problem: Yes, this is something for the combat balance, but I mention it as it is almost always the #2 complaint of Swordsmen and might have some interim solutions. Swordsmen have 5 weapons that are of kinetic damage type and are medium armor-piercing. In the current combat system there is no compelling reason to use any but the best of these.
Solution: In some manner give more meaning to some of these weapons. The easiest manner for doing this would be the introduction of an AP3 weapon or a weapon with a new damage type. This would ideally occur on one of our less used and less viable weapons (such as the cleaver, 2h Axe or Executioner's Hack) so as to create a tradeoff without necessarily introducing a dramatic increase in power.
SlippMercato
Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:50 pm
#4
Good points.
On the melee "range" it does make more sense for Pikemen to have the widest range, Swordsman the second widest, then Fencers, finally TKAs have to be at the 1m range. It would be interesting if they scaled the lunges, as an example, based on profession, it is already unrealistic that any profession can lunge 20 meters, but it would be cool to see pikemen able to lunge to 20m at lunge1 and then 25m at lunge2. Swordsman 15m at lunge1 20m at lunge2. Fencer 10m at lunge1 15m at lunge2. TKA 5m at lunge1 and 10m at lunge 2.
That alone would give some variety to the professions... not sure if that's the right scale for things either.
Co-valent
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:01 pm
#5
StGabriel wrote:
Scythe Quest Issues
Problem: The scythe is only available through quests. It is the one completely new weapon that is not available through some mechanism that is renewable. Players can do the known scythe quests twice and then no knew scythes will be available to them. Non-swordsmen can get schematics and trade them but this is not a renewable source of schematics either as they too can only do this once.
Solution: Introduce a quest or drop for the scythe schematic that is renewable, that is, that can through hard work, be accessed repeatedly. Even if this were only something to be "camped" it would be an improvement. One suggestion would be to add Scythe Schematics to the loot tables for Singing Mountain Clan or Nightsister NPCs. These could be rare and still this would allow a new venue for obtaining scythes.
Can I perhaps suggest Axkva Min herself? As if you read the Treasure Map, it says it was a Treasure Belonging to her, and so would therefore make sense if she dropped it, perhaps with a similar rarity to the Nightsister Energy Lance.
Raziel07
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:05 pm
#6
executioner hack need some changing, sory if this has been brought up
Glum_Moonfist
Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:54 pm
#7
I think Swordsman for PvE is fine, I dont see any need to change whats not broken..PvP is another matter. Thats where swordsman needs improvement.
How about a dedicated dizzy hit? Thats really the only thing IMHO that hampers swordsman PvP. Trying to rely on HeadHit3 for a dizzy is a total crapshoot. All other melee profs have a Dizzy move that is fairly reliable except us.
Oh forgot to add also: A stun hit too!
How about a dedicated dizzy hit? Thats really the only thing IMHO that hampers swordsman PvP. Trying to rely on HeadHit3 for a dizzy is a total crapshoot. All other melee profs have a Dizzy move that is fairly reliable except us.
Oh forgot to add also: A stun hit too!
Message Edited by Glum_Moonfist on 07-15-2004 02:56 PM
Noc-turnal
Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:51 pm
#8
Well PvE swordman is king and perfect. PvP is when issues comes in and i PvP as swordman ever since i played this game. althought it would be nice to have more weapons and sword for swordman i dont see that as a priority i would very much liek to see devs put thier time for swordman in solving the issue instead of another hack (we all know what i mean)
TH said that melee migration will be removed i am assuming range will stay? if that is true then my analyzes of the melee pvp is pretty much spot on. The issue isnt so much melee migration but rather the combination of Melee migration + toughness mod which makes melee fight silly. Two equaly skilled fighters can be there fighting each other for aegis whiles thier range counter part would take half that time is not less. This is quite clearly due to the toughness mod remember a TKM would have 57 with the choice of 5 on master brawler, even us swordman with master brawler we're on 48 thats nearly half damage out plus migration = silly damage if you think of armour on top. i dont not see the need of it being there if its meant for defense for meleers as we already have toughness mods. so i dont think it needs a replacement, or maybe something that is alot weaker than migration
As a heavy hitter we do have issue piecing armour whiles our range counter part has the choice of stun and AP3.
In the age of DoT weapons we find ourself on the back line with non effective weapons for DoTs. i personaly hate DoTs but if combat revamp dosent change that would it be out of the question to ask for something to even ourself?
Move vereity have been a big issue for a long time now. we have to many spin move all gets more or less redudant by the master level. Whiles i do agree we should have more status effect because all we can do is dizzy and that is only with a clever play to make it happen. I dont entirely agree with out other spin move to land status. Those should be for pikeman as crowd controler. i like to see us as a shock trooper and do the bigger damage and more directly lethal. So better to have the moves to single out but more chances of landing it. Whiles stun seems like a good idea i am unsure if it is right for us, if we intimidate and stun a fencer thier defense drop to non existance and they wouldnt do enough damage to even be a threat. it might just shift us too far forward.
As a PvPer i can see those moves coupling together in a very dangerious way. with the CoB not as good as they once were i think maybe a blind move would be better for us also give us defensive option rather than going to far in offense and make us too abusive. (i hate for us swordman to become the new hated combat medic status) Bleed move has since been useless us when it was nerf as i clearly state under pvp guide it is no more use to us than to annoy people and force them to heal.
New moves might be a good idea in theory but i dunno if thats the right way as it would be exclusively to ask if new ones was made since other profession do no seem to have lack of moves problem.
Counter attack does need to be given priority althought is okay as it is now it would be better is a game mechanics actualy do work
APEist_theReb
Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:06 pm
#9
As a long-time swordsman i would like to see a new ap3 weapon, or atleast change one of our existing weapons to ap3. So basically im agreeing with your comment on this issue stgabe.
I also completely agree with stgabe's thoguhts on the bleed issue and lack of variety in our specials.
but i can i complain really, no hehe. We are the king of pve, and if you know how to fight with swordsman you can be an awesome pvp'r.
Dresdenkali
Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:31 pm
#10
I agree that in PvE we are definitely strong. My Wook with out armor fends for himself well. I definitely feel that a dizzy or knock down would be a nice addition to help enhance PvP for swordsmen. As far as weapons go i am satisfied with my power hammer and scythe. both are effective weapons to use. However minus the scythe the hammer as being the top weapon for swordsman is a little silly. I would not mind seeing some form of DoT weapon for swordsman however it is not a have to have IMO.
I feel for the most part though swordsman is fairly well balanced and works well when used properly in many situations.
Nagabacca
Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:23 pm
#11
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=36744#M36744
The message you wish to view has been deleted.
/confused; /shrug
Keuller
Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:09 pm
#12
In the "We need it, really bad" category:
/stick
In the "I wish upon a star" category:
Some sort of AP3 weapon. Preferably the hammer or hack. Riflemen get their T21's, 15 more speed, 54m more range and 4 more damage types.
/stick
In the "I wish upon a star" category:
Some sort of AP3 weapon. Preferably the hammer or hack. Riflemen get their T21's, 15 more speed, 54m more range and 4 more damage types.
Ldwater
Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:06 am
#13
Keep up the good work Gabe, the delay on the combat balance is a blow (and an insult) to all of us who want a balanced game experiance. The way I see this announcment, its the devs way of saying "Were hoping that when JTL comes out, no one will be playing the ground game, so we can forget/delay morethe CB"
All the points made are very good points, and im very keen on co-operating with the devs to produce a balanced and fun swordsman profession.
Page 1 of 4