Swordsman Archive
Thread: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
vnicula
Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:45 pm
#40
Hey Milgram,
I'll give you directly my conclusions, I'll elaborate more some other time, I cannot do this now
As a pro Swordsmanyou may failto kill anelder only for2 reasons:
a)you can't heal astacked bleedAND your damage fast enough
b)you get dizzy/kd'ed on low ham or with a nasty bleed on you
Having good doctor skills its the only choice to solve both. You can cure dizzy next sec when it lands and cure bleed in maximum 3 heals, usually only one is needed.
You think you can do it with medic 2000 and stacked state defenses? No! Just have patience with elders and you'll meet one who will prove you I'm right.
Ok, what about medic 2040 and defenses stack? Hmm, no! You'll kill many elders and at some point you'll think its enough.
But one dayyou'll die because you cannot /stand quick and when you manage to /stand your /firstaid seems to be too slow and too weak and you have to heal the damage too and the bleed ticks and you use avercupti and warcry but warcry doesn't work and you notice the elder is no longerintimidated and you try to intimidate but it doesn't stick and you try again the warcry and do some healing change PSG and intimidate, the bleeding is there though, try another /firstaid and bleeding is still there, 'you sustained more beeding', a dizzy just landed and you pray 'dont KD me, dont KD me, I have defences' while hitting /firstaid but the kd lands and you take the pixie and another synthsteak and try to eat another vercupti but youre too full, finally the /stand works and youre up and change the PSG but the bleeding, the bleeding its just too much for you, your /firstaid cannot cure it and that BMF elder continues to bleed you, and your healing timer is so slow and your BF its so high and you heal yourself only for 400 dam or so with your good old D's but the bleed is more and you start to think that your medic skills are not enough but its too late, a critical strike just put more bleeding and drain almost all your health bar, you hit warcry and burstrun, nothing seems to work, you cannot burstrun while dizzy but you cannot cure dizzy so you just heal yourself for the last time, eat a kwi adrenal boost and hit lunge2 praying praying, nothing happens, you stored your bike cause you thought you're uber,one more heal and one more bleed tick and you start hitting /forceOfWill ... and you're gone.
Free trip to outpost though.
Ok, maybe its not too often but ithappens. If you have template 1) it takes longer to kill it but you're safe.
About state defences. Could you believe TH? I cant believe that guy! I tested for myself some time ago and found this: the best Swords stack (if i remember well MSwords/Mbrawler/Pistoleer 1040/Fencer 0440/Pikeman 0040) easily got a stun from a TKM after 5 hits. I dont remember if I used a BE shirt but the template I tested had
more than 100 def vs stun. I was very dissapointend at that time. The same with blind, dizzy, they all stick in less than 10 hits. If youre already in stun state they stick in 2 hits. Please test it yourself, /duel your tkm friend, put a 2h weapon and tell him to do only /unarmedStun. Count the hits, note them, wait for stun to wear off then repeat. Please post your results. Also test the other states just to see if they stick. A more accuratetest (I already tried that) can be done with a MLS because they have a greater chance than a TK to put states. Tell your jedi friend to use Flurry2 or Dervish2 on you. In my experience after 5-7 hits you have all states on you depending on how fast the stun sticks.
TH said that cap on defences is 125. The question was about melee defence but the answer was general. As far as I tested the 10% rule applies WITHOUT any exception on PC (player characters). I'll try the shirt and +110 vs stun to see if they changedsomething meanwhile.
For high level mobs the engine doesn't use the 10% rule. We can just dream on having elders/ancients defences vs states. Even so, I have seen ancient kd, elder kd, sbd kd, dark jedi master kd. They have problems too
Peace.
vnicula
Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:03 pm
#41
Hey Milgram,
I went MS/MB/Medic2000/Pistoleer 0040/Fencer 0440/Prowess 0043 to see if there is something behind BE Stun clothes.
Well I must say that we have different experiences because I was getting stun state like usual from my jedi friends. One of them even had the chance to incap me and he never won a duel with me before, he was very curious how did it happen (usually he runs out of force in 3-5 minutes because I spam 2hhit3 and warcry/heal). Not to mention that a CM/Rifleman beat me 3 times in a row and usually he was easy prey for me (omg, how can you manage a 600-700 mind poison stack without doc??). Everybody laughed at my new template because any good PvPer knows Doc 2xxx is a must these days.
Once I saw this I went to Dath and do my usual buff session there. I managed to kill like 6 elders, one of them was a tough fight inside their stronghold. I killed at least 100 low level NS and never get a stun YES. Anyway the last elder was that kind of fight when you pray to finnish her before your last PSG is toasted. I got some blind states from the NS though. And if I remember well a dizzy or two. And at least 3 KD but not one dizzy/KD. It was nothing new for me only annoying because Medic 2000 is too darn slow and weak. I doubt there are many players which can solo a BMF elder with a stun baton with this template. Ive done it only because I have janta stim Bs and uber armor/PSG, 760 dam ph toasted from powerups, 264 mind poison pike and I use the intimidation stack, not to mention my experience (I try not to get stucked in an animation, run around them etc).
This template is good for killing elders but believe me I'll get my MS/MB/Doc4200/Prowess 0040 back after I'll camp a little the DWB. I went there too with a small group and I felt melee mitigation3+ ranged mitigation2 is a good combination in there. Im sorry I dont have time to elaborate more now, gotta go. Ill keep this template a little because the work on a fencer its annoying without broken spawns and I dont have any pistol xp banked so I want to bank some.
About the dot geo, you dont need Pistoleer to use it. The dot sticks anyway (mine is 88% potency) and the damage is crap. Im using it in pvp with any template for 5 months. My DoT LVA works very well with master brawler and here is the trick to use it to change wep:
Youre running around enemy, hit the /firstaid self or /healdamage self and immediately Shift-F2 for example to change to geo pistol. The pistol will appear quickly, the same time with the healing animation. Fire until the dot stick then /warcry and change back to hammer. After 1 min do the same with the pike. Remember, first 'changeItem' is quick and the counter reset in 30 sec I think.
I gotta to go,
Peace.
Peace.
Good Luck
Message Edited by vnicula on 01-05-2005 12:02 PM
cwhooks
Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:05 pm
#42
Been doing a bunch of testing on NS Elders, I have a friend who is master rifleman with a mixture of doctor and combat medic... Been runnign with my friend as my template isn't quite complete and I was testign a few things...
First batch of NS Elders
Master Brawler
Master Swordsman
0040 Pikeman
4000 Fencer (Already had this from holo grind)
0001 marksman (SP reserved for the medic part of my template and to generate AP points)
1000 medic
And 6 trees of FS all the combat and the 2 melee/ranged D in relfexes.
With this template, the goal was to keep me bleed, state and damage free. So I was dealing damage and my friend was just doing all the healing... With this template, he could not keep me free of states... Once a stun hit, pretty much everythign else followed quickly... I had to state clothing either... In the end, we settled on him jsut curing bleeds and dizzy first, then any other states if he got a chance... Fencer and TKA style sisters wereeasy, pikeman were medium and swordsman NS were hard. The stun baton NS sent us both to the cloner. I had a ver hard time with my mind pool running low. As a Rodean I have 1000,500,550 for midn stats. I have music/dnace buffs and was using Brandy and canape... Was also running a CoB macro for some fights and not for others... CoB doesn't seem todo anything noticeable to me, other than drain my mind. With CoB off my mind is in much better shape.
I had a ver hard time with my mind pool running low. As a Rodean I have 1000,500,550 for midn stats. I have music/dnace buffs and was using Brandy and canape... Was also running a CoB macro for some fights and not for others... CoB doesn't seem todo anything noticeable to me, other than drain my mind. With CoB off my mind is in much better shape.Second batch of NS Elders
Master Brawler
Master Swordsman
0040 Pikeman
0230 Fencer (planning on getting 0240)
0001 marksman (SP reserved for the medic part of my template and to generate AP points)
1000 medic
And 6 trees of FS all the combat and the 2 melee/ranged D in relfexes.
With this template thigns were quite a bit better... Unless a stun hit me, states were fairly rare, except for bleeds. My friend was easily able to keep up with healing chores and deal some damage. Elders were defiantely dropping faster! Tried a few solo and if no stuns would hit me, I could get them under 100k mind before my friend had to step in and help, cause my mind was drained for healign myself or bleeds were to much. I also put on a +18 stun def shirt. Was also using medicla pants for +25, but when BF get's up from all the bleed, it doesn't seem to help as my stim B's are only healing 300. So the state defense are helpign quite a bit and I haven't finishing putting together some clothes and armor with SEAs to get me to 90 in all the states (stun, dizzy and knockdown seem most important). However... In order to solo these guys, I still have3 problems to solve... Mind pool drain, bleeds and stun... I can most likely solo Elders right now, but it's going to be one heck of an adrenaline ride... A doctor splash to solve the bleed and stun problem is lookign very attractive... However, that will just increase my mind pool drain, which I see as my biggest problem! Things is... I want to have the cure state ability along with my current defense level *lol*
Message Edited by cwhooks on 11-10-2004 05:17 PM
daz007
Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:36 pm
#43
vnicula wrote:
Hey cwhooks,
Some of my friends reported a toughness bug lately, this is the only explanation I have to your problems. With a buddy rifleman/some doc/some cm elders are a walk in the park. I can't confirm the toughness bug because I soloed an elder yesterday without problems with my test template (see above).
I dont want to insult you in any way just to remind you to keep the elder intimidated all the time. CoB make you harder to hit (so its like a +melee defence which is useless against elders)but also (I'm talking about my experience) enhances your chances to counterattack (like a +counterattack). I'm using it even against elders because of my mind stats.
The state defences stack works against elders, yes. Thanks to Milgram's observations and my tests I can confirm this: if you have a template with +90 stun defence and you wear stun BE shirt +18 and some attachments for +7 you will never(!) get stun from elders. In PvP you'll easily get a stun from a jedi or even TKM.
I played a little with your template and I can suggest this one (you will be able to solo ANY elders with good stim C's and very well prepared):
MB/MS/Medic 2130/Fencer 0440/ Pikeman 0040/FS crapola
I adapted this template to your current template so its easy to get it (tumblers everywhere).
You can try also MB/MS/Novice Doc/FS crapola but because of some FS wasted points you cannot get Doc 4200 which is the level of Doc I consider better than state def stack.
Ahh, important: heal the bleed FIRST.
Peace.
Message Edited by vnicula on 11-10-2004 10:29 PM
This guy is a smart man. Listen to him or else.
cwhooks
Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:17 am
#44
I've now finished my medic to 2140, still haven't gotten that last box of fencer yet... Went out soloing on my own tonight... With 1200 pop heals, things were real nice until my BF hit 600+ and heals dropped to 500. I had no one to clear states and it didn't seem to matter, didn't use the CoB and my mind was pretty good. Had to flee 1 stun baton elder. Did great agaisnt a PH elder, no problems. Ran into 1 elder that loved dizzy knockdown... It wasn't sticky to often... Still it was the only elder I ever ended up on my back and I was there 3 times in the fight... I couldn't keep up with the bleeds of course, but just knock the blereds down when they popped over 800 a tick was all I needed...
As for intimidate... I stakc both intimidates and I always keep them there. I also use warcry to buy a few free seconds ot heal and do first aid, etc...
Still... My mind is down around 100-400 at the end of these battles because my stomache is full and my canape has run out... I really don't like seeing my mind under 1k when I have 1900 or more on the bar. 40% reduction synthsteak does work really nice though! Oh, I also swapped out my +18 stun shirt for a +17 bleeding defense shirt... All I have to say is that also made a big difference. My previous 2 testing, bleeding seemed to be a major problem with the tick takign huge chuncks out of my HAM bar... I rarely saw the huge chunks tonight and when it did happen I would only take 2 or 3 first aids to put it in hte safe zone. After tonight I'm alot less worried about bleeds and stun state to be honest... Mostly worried about stun weapons, mind bar and dizzy+knockdown happy elders... They're definately not as scary tonight as they were a few days ago!!!
cwhooks
Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:49 am
#45
daz007 wrote:
vnicula wrote:
Hey cwhooks,
I dont want to insult you in any way just to remind you to keep the elder intimidated all the time. CoB make you harder to hit (so its like a +melee defence which is useless against elders)but also (I'm talking about my experience) enhances your chances to counterattack (like a +counterattack). I'm using it even against elders because of my mind stats.
Rodean, despite the bonuses to swordsman, is really handicapped on the mind... The CoB is a really bad drain... Someone said I might be better off trying some different food that can add at least 700 is not more to focus... I'll have to give that a try... For right now, I'm goign to skip the CoB macro until I can solve the mind pool problem. It could be that just using 9 min 33% fill canape is the wrogn way to go to try to keep my mind regen up! As it is I'm draining my mind on simple mobs like meatlumps on endless cycle after about 20 minutes of fighting (done to test to see if it was damage that was dropping my pool or me).
The state defences stack works against elders, yes. Thanks to Milgram's observations and my tests I can confirm this: if you have a template with +90 stun defence and you wear stun BE shirt +18 and some attachments for +7 you will never(!) get stun from elders. In PvP you'll easily get a stun from a jedi or even TKM.
Well, as I noted in my post, defense stacking is defiantely working! I'm quite happy with it. A friend is master doctor/master swordsman/artisan 0001. *shrug* I'm defiantely having an easy go of elders than he is, even though he's using an 800 max dam hammer to my 600, etc... That aside, do we know at roughly which level states stop sticking? 100? 125? I designed my template so that I could with SEA's get my stun, dizzy and knockdown defenses to 90-100... If I can make myself nearly immune to knockdown, then quite frankly I don't really care about dizzy and blind, which means the 3rd tree in fencer isn't really necessary and I cna concentrate my SEAs on just knockdown, stun and bleed. Thus freeing up more skill points for medic... Since I don't PvP, this route is most attractive to me.
I played a little with your template and I can suggest this one (you will be able to solo ANY elders with good stim C's and very well prepared):
MB/MS/Medic 2130/Fencer 0440/ Pikeman 0040/FS crapola
The knockdown defense tree in fencer is attractive! I can't seem to find good stim C's on bloodfin... The few I do find, are only 100-150 better than B's... Basically I have B's around 420-490. Stimc C's are running arounf 600-650. While D's are running around 1000-1200. Seems to me you either go with B's or D's. I think the Rodean and the very weak mind stats really forces me to stim D's...
I adapted this template to your current template so its easy to get it (tumblers everywhere).
You can try also MB/MS/Novice Doc/FS crapola but because of some FS wasted points you cannot get Doc 4200 which is the level of Doc I consider better than state def stack.
It doesn't seem worth it to me to just grab novice doc... Well, after watching the master doctor/master swordsman template with only intimidate 1... I found myself not to impressed by the healing/state curing power... It's interesting that the only states he ever cures for himself is dizzy and bleedign if it gets higher than a heal can keep up with. Pretty much all I'm doign with my wimpy first aid is jsut healign bleeds enough to get them under control too... Still, when me and him wnet out hunting SMC councilwomen (SMC version of elders), I was on my back once out of liek 20 of these, yet he was on his back for just about every encounter... Most of the time with a dizzy in place and him out of action for a while. I was even asked to him him twice while he was down... The flip side however... I got pwned by a stun wielder and he killed it... So therer is good staying power in that tempalte I don't have...
Ahh, important: heal the bleed FIRST.
Yup! But with the admendment that only if it's a noticeable bleed! If it's only doing 50 a tick, ignore it.
Peace.
I'm goign to try and test out the immune to knockdown template first... If it works great, I'll stick with it, else I'll test the novice doctor template!
Message Edited by vnicula on 11-10-2004 10:29 PM
This guy is a smart man. Listen to him or else.
AnimalMagnet
Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:44 pm
#46
Can I ask something? Why is it that there is no CM mentioned in any of these templates? It seems like the mind poison would be a good addition to the swordsman bleeds and mind hits. Is it too much of a SP drain? I thought if you were going to get doctor anyway it might be worthwhile to pick up some CM.....Is this not the case?
Thanks!
-O
vnicula
Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:25 am
#47
I focused my templates on PvE (as title says). Here is my opinion about your question:
CM templates are mostly PvP templates, although I saw people killing those protectors around Axkva by poisoning them and wait like 10 min until they are down to 1 HAM.
If you have 12 points and spider venom around 200 you can make poisons with 1000 tick but thats the ideal case and you cant have MCM/MHS together. Assuming you can throw poisons with 1000 tick anyway and you stack them you will get 3000 dam/10 sec = 300 dam/sec. This is somehow too low to count against high-end mobs like krayts or elders. A regular speed capped MHS equipped with a 600 max dam ph will dish out around 2800-3000 dam/sec with Head Hit 3 so we're talking about 10% difference with all those points invested in CM. Actually you will lose these 10% more damage because you have to toss out master brawler which means less toughness (more healing, time consuming), no intimidate2 (again time consuming) not to mention another 5-6 mils for the speed.
The best PvE killing machines have master brawler inside. This means no CM. Doctor does not require Ranged Support IV.
. Doctor does not require Ranged Support IV.For PvP... apply poisons, couple of head hits and /deathblow or /strut at your choice.
Peace.
AnimalMagnet
Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:24 am
#48
Ok good points but let me make a couple too. You don't need MCM, only 4/0/0/4 if you are going to buy your poisons from a 12-pt MCM. Still MBrawler is impossible but you could do some doc to improve your healing and heal states. When you say 10% damage that's assuming a contant rate of 3000 dmg/sec spamming HH3, but keep in mind once the poison is applied this would be a *contant* 300 dmg/sec even while healing damage, sticking intimidates, healing states, and even lying on your back. Curious on this point -- do you typically apply your mind bleeds to Elders or just HH3?
I know you don't like to argue the MBrawler issue but as you mentioned in your first post most of the mods can be bought.
Here's what you're getting from that box (well you're also getting the ability to dabble in other melee for defenses, but according to these posts melee def is ineffective vs. high-end npcs, and the state defs can be almost made up for in foods):
Intimidation +20 - can get +17 from inexpensive BE shirt
Warcry +20- can get +17 from inexpensive BE shirt
Melee Defense +5 - as mentioned above not much help vs. high end
Warcry +20- can get +17 from inexpensive BE shirt
Melee Defense +5 - as mentioned above not much help vs. high end
Ranged Def +5 - ok in certain cases but we're mostly talking high-end mobs here
2h Accuracy +5 - would be missed
2h CoB +5 - doesn't matter much I think
2h Speed +5 - can get speed capped through attachments
2h Melee Toughness +5 - would be missed
2h Accuracy +5 - would be missed
2h CoB +5 - doesn't matter much I think
2h Speed +5 - can get speed capped through attachments
2h Melee Toughness +5 - would be missed
Abilities:
Int 2 - you state 30% more dmg reduction than with int 1 (when both are stacked)
2h Lunge 2 - merely a convenience, not a necessity
Warcry 2 - a convenience again
Int 2 - you state 30% more dmg reduction than with int 1 (when both are stacked)
2h Lunge 2 - merely a convenience, not a necessity
Warcry 2 - a convenience again
Out of this the only thing that really gets my attention is the Int2...Maybe that 30% is worth it but maybe not -- it sure is alot of skill points to sacrifice. As a starting MSwords I'd definitely get MBrawler, but as I acquired alot of creds and uber gear I might reconsider keeping it...
Anyway thanks for your response! =)
-O
AnimalMagnet
Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:00 pm
#49
My evil question to you is:
Why dabbling like this when you can have MRifle/MCM/FS crapola and conceal and kite them to death? And KS at your choice. And be more efficient in PvP also...
Well a few reasons:
1) I find melee to be more fun
2) Too many things can go wrong withpure-ranged in both PvE and PvP and if something/someone gets in close then you're dead
3) I doubt MRifle without melee skills can take down a high-end npc quicker than a MSwords template
Anyway, I killed elders even with BH 3000/MHS/Medic 2040and this is just a discussion about BEST PvE TEMPLATES. Keep yours, I really wanted to have it some time ago but the lack ofuber poisons left me with a bitter taste.
I think the highest DPS to a targetted pool makes for the best PvEr (provided you can stay alive long enough to win), and so to this end I think some CM skills might be useful. Maybe it'll be better, maybe worse....won't know until I try it out I guess!
-O
ferr0x
Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:30 pm
#50
vnicula wrote:
I focused my templates on PvE (as title says). Here is my opinion about your question:
CM templates are mostly PvP templates, although I saw people killing those protectors around Axkva by poisoning them and wait like 10 min until they are down to 1 HAM.
If you have 12 points and spider venom around 200 you can make poisons with 1000 tick but thats the ideal case and you cant have MCM/MHS together. Assuming you can throw poisons with 1000 tick anyway and you stack them you will get 3000 dam/10 sec = 300 dam/sec. This is somehow too low to count against high-end mobs like krayts or elders. A regular speed capped MHS equipped with a 600 max dam ph will dish out around 2800-3000 dam/sec with Head Hit 3 so we're talking about 10% difference with all those points invested in CM. Actually you will lose these 10% more damage because you have to toss out master brawler which means less toughness (more healing, time consuming), no intimidate2 (again time consuming) not to mention another 5-6 mils for the speed.
The best PvE killing machines have master brawler inside. This means no CM
For PvP... apply poisons, couple of head hits and /deathblow or /strut at your choice.
Peace.
I'm Master Brawler, Master Swordsman, some Medic, some Fencer. I've just started considering CM after an encounter with a DWB Wraith, only after I started the fight and noticed the minimal damage I was inflicting (a little over 100 per Head Hit 3) with my PH did I examine him and see the 90% Blast resistance. He also was 75% kinetic, so I don't think a scythe would do much better. I didn't have many problems with states, got dizziedsome but never KD. I died only because I got careless with the heals. At 113k HAM, this would have been a looong fight had I not died. In this case a nice mind poison tick would go a long way wouldn't it? Unless I can pick up a very nice lance, which I don't have nearly the money for right now, wouldn't CM be a big help? Any suggestions? (Also am I just wasting time looking for loot with the DWB types, should I just go for Elders and not worry about these guys, problem solved?)
vnicula
Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:42 am
#51
Curious on this point -- do you typically apply your mind bleeds to Elders or just HH3?
I always apply bleeds only after I get an auto-bleed from hh3.
2h Melee Toughness +5 - would be missed
I think we're talking about an additional 8-14 dam/sec to your HAM (assuming 450 average dam/sec from elder). If you're ganked by elder/protectors/spellweavers those +5 REALLY count.
Warcry 2 - a convenience again
Hmm, sometimes it saved my butt because without it the bleeds and the damage was too much. Basically, after /warcry1 is over, /warcry2 can give you a fresh start, another 20 sec to heal those bleeds. Having two warcrys means five time more safe time than only /warcry1. Its important in PvP also but with MHS/CM you don't need it anyway
Out of this the only thing that really gets my attention is the Int2...Maybe that 30% is worth it but maybe not -- it sure is alot of skill points to sacrifice.
Intimidate2 also make you able to succesfully kill 3-4 protectors at a time (or 2 elders at the same time if you get lucky). Without it its almost impossible to fight 2 elders same time, assuming you don't want to poison them to death, lol.
One more thing: without MCM you can't use the most powerfull poisons. My evil question to you is:
Why dabbling like this when you can have MRifle/MCM/FS crapola and conceal and kite them to death? And KS at your choice. And be more efficient in PvP also...
Anyway, I killed elders even with BH 3000/MHS/Medic 2040and this is just a discussion about BEST PvE TEMPLATES. Keep yours, I really wanted to have it some time ago but the lack ofuber poisons left me with a bitter taste.
Peace.
kudil
Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:39 am
#52
Master Swordsman
Master Brawler
Medic 2040
Fencer 4440
TK 4000
Combat Prowess 0004
Enhanced Reflexes 4000
But i dont know if to drop the Meditate line and get:
Pikeman 0040 (for the dizzy def)
Im going mainly for NS elder hunting and things like that. i Found having Master Fencer and no Medic skills was a real downer so im working on getting 2040. Anyone suggest getting higher Def stats and dropping Meditate line?
Master Brawler
Medic 2040
Fencer 4440
TK 4000
Combat Prowess 0004
Enhanced Reflexes 4000
But i dont know if to drop the Meditate line and get:
Pikeman 0040 (for the dizzy def)
Im going mainly for NS elder hunting and things like that. i Found having Master Fencer and no Medic skills was a real downer so im working on getting 2040. Anyone suggest getting higher Def stats and dropping Meditate line?