Swordsman Archive
Thread: gabe love the scythe but HAM cost on the thing is way too high.
But anyway, after a while we don't really need to argue. I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit and pointing out why I don't think the HAM on the Scythes is necessarily such a big issue for us now. A scythe is already below the HAM costs on a power hammer. Of the issues we have to push on right now I also don't think this is one we'd get a lot of mileage out of (just from my perspective on where we're at with dev interaction atm).
StGabe.
StGabriel wrote:
None of those points really seem to say to me that the scythe -needs- low HAM's. Really I do think that they are pretty low already. There's gotta be some trade-offs for all weapons and items that go into the game. The trade-off for a more powerful Scythe probably would have been making it much more rare. Acklay bones themselves are another rare item (and so arguably should compare with a scythe anyway) and you know, even with those, I don't think you're going to see 2h axes really beating out scythes -- if the speed formula gets changed. Remember that when you use those bonues you lose a lot of accuracy and wounds and gain a lot of speed.
But anyway, after a while we don't really need to argue. I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit and pointing out why I don't think the HAM on the Scythes is necessarily such a big issue for us now. A scythe is already below the HAM costs on a power hammer. Of the issues we have to push on right now I also don't think this is one we'd get a lot of mileage out of (just from my perspective on where we're at with dev interaction atm).
StGabe.
i'm just basing it on the weapons i see in the hands of other masters and their overall effectiveness in combat against other players (which is truely the end game since they beat AI any day).
DPS is good for raw facts and figures but there are lots of other issues.
i think there are many ways the scythe could have been made just a bit better and truely worth all the waiting and effort put into making a good one, (ar3, cold effect, slightly lower ham) that certainly wouldn't have made us "overpowered".
do i think the scythe sucks? no
do i think its a great weapon? yes.
i'm just giving you feedback.
if you want to jump into pvp unbuffed and help some friends you're going to die from the scythe before you die from enemies based on many factors.
and i wouldn't downplay the 2 handed axe.
it's still our most accurate weapon and has a great dmg range.
with acklay bones and a good dmg slice you would being coming in close to a damage of 275-350 ish dmg.
and the 4.0 speed on a 2 handed axe is very easy to overcome and in fact i think with an 80 speed (master brawler/master swords) you would be fairly close to capping specials every second. certainly impressive.
its was the only weapon worth considering in pvp pre-scyth if you understood mitigation and defense stacking.
i still miss a good bit with the scythe even though mine has +3 to all ranges.
i know the next patch will change that though.
yah, i never once for a second thought this would be changed because it was already changed on TC once
just bringing up what i saw from my point of view
anyway thanks for the replys.
Message Edited by haun on 02-26-2004 05:04 PM
Message Edited by haun on 02-26-2004 05:06 PM
Cakins7005 wrote:
Riflemen shouldn't complain at all. They nerfed tatooine sunburn and gave us brandy for mind. You can drink that and have muon and migrate all of your stats to the mind pool. Swordsmen can't shoot at 64 m and cannot do 8 k of damage a shot every 2 seconds to 20 crazied geonosians with heavy armor piercing weapons.
don't forget we also dont have HEAVY AP or ap3 and they do.
we got shafted folks.
i know you're excited about the scythe - i am too - but we got the bad end of the deal
scythe
195-350 50/74/39 = 203
I think you've really undershot the damage on sliced scythe here. I'm thinking that 270-450 is easily obtainable.
Remember that the speed equation will probably be tweaked with the combat rebalance. The scythe is a real monster when it comes to DPS (compare raw DPS on a scythe to a t21 for example) and will probably benefit a lot from this. Not to mention that the HAM usage is being revamped too.
And nothing is without tradeoffs. If we wanted the scythe to be -the- pre-eminent Swordsman weapon then the trade-off would probably have had to have been that Scythes were much rarer. Also, if you use red cubes you can get your HAM costs down a lot lower than that.
Now having said all that I can understand the concerns. If it was expected that the scythe was going to single-handedly solve all Swordsman problems though, I think there was almost no way for us not to be disappointed.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 02-26-2004 12:33 PM
StGabriel wrote:
164-243 58/26/20 = 104
scythe
195-350 50/74/39 = 203
I think you've really undershot the damage on sliced scythe here. I'm thinking that 270-450 is easily obtainable.
Remember that the speed equation will probably be tweaked with the combat rebalance. The scythe is a real monster when it comes to DPS (compare raw DPS on a scythe to a t21 for example) and will probably benefit a lot from this. Not to mention that the HAM usage is being revamped too.
And nothing is without tradeoffs. If we wanted the scythe to be -the- pre-eminent Swordsman weapon then the trade-off would probably have had to have been that Scythes were much rarer. Also, if you use red cubes you can get your HAM costs down a lot lower than that.
Now having said all that I can understand the concerns. If it was expected that the scythe was going to single-handedly solve all Swordsman problems though, I think there was almost no way for us not to be disappointed.
you're right its 163.
thats a lot more ham for the dmg increase though.
i got mine sliced to 205-375 - that was with quality materials and good cubes.
i think they are rare enough considering you can get about six and who knows if you even get a good slice out of those six.
i never thought it would solved all our problems - i think it has fixed many of our problems.
however, it should have been better because of the wait and because of the effort.
hell i got a crit failure on my yellow cubes and lost some of those.
considering that most other profession can buy weapons better than the scythe (vk's, ion blasters,) i don't see how all this trouble weighs out.
the scyth is good yes but it should have been a bit better.
dps is nice when you look at raw numbers but when it comes to PVP it doesn't factor out.
consider this - when the combat rebalance changes defenses EVERYBODY will be in armor. our damage input will go way way down - you'll see 40's and 20's flying over peoples armored heads.
we should have amazing dps because we can only strike within 10ms.
but like i said i think my hope is that the rebalance will help these problems.
i don't know.
Message Edited by haun on 02-26-2004 12:46 PM
We're not really going to get anything more powerful just because we waited for it a while. That's not really how these things work. Furthermore, I'm not buying that it's really so hard to make these things with tons of yellow-cube, solidifying agent-enhanced scythes poppping up already. If you compare the scythe to, say, the Nightsister Energy Lance that pikemen got I think you'll be really happy with our new toy. And try comparing camping Axkva Min to getting a scythe. She's much harder, respawns once a day, and usually doesn't drop anything anyway. Meanwhile I think we'll find that with such a high speed and DPS the scythe proves a very nice addition to our arsenal.
With respect to the combat balance, the hope is that the combat rebalance won't simply leave armor as completely dominant as it currently is. Swordsmen shouldn't be doing 20-40 damage against targets in PvP, period, imo. Personally I think that the solution isn't to give some overpowered weapon that will one-shot any unarmored foe. Rather the solution is to make armor less of a dominating factor. I think we'll see the scythe proving a very effective weapon if some of these things come to pass.
The scythe was already brought down quite a bit. My original scyth was 42/83/68 HAM and -15 ranged mods. Ouch.
StGabe.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 02-26-2004 01:03 PM