Swordsman Archive

Thread: anybody else enjoying the TK whines about their UB312 kd/dizzy nerf?

DarthFuse
Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:57 pm
#27

gotta agree with Veng on that one, cause i sure as hell can't spam my master mover more than 5-6 times without my action running out.
Chrysahor
Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:21 pm
#28

Who can spam his best attack with his best weapon unbuff at master level?

Honestly, they're both pretty equal. The real difference is that tkm can go just unarmed (with knucler) and do a good job for moderate ham cost...we don't have this option...that's all I think.



Stacy Whittaker - CommanDoc
Mandalorian Commando - TC-EP3 Tester
Chrysahor
Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:07 pm
#29

It's not that simple. Fencers have dizzy too...why aren't they our worst nightmare?
You can stand up with dizzy (well, it can take some time, but if you don't spam /stand, you can do it).
A TKM can intimidate, stun you...your damages are mitigated and their are a lot less mitigated (don't forget high toughness). They can also blind you (miss miss miss)...how are your damages with stun and intimidate against a 60-70 blast and 80 kinetic armor on? :/



Stacy Whittaker - CommanDoc
Mandalorian Commando - TC-EP3 Tester
Jedika
Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:16 pm
#30

I just wonder if tkms really do think their class isnt uber lol



Kamy Kamy
~ Master Swordsman ~
~ Stop...HAMMERTIME ~
"Knockdown, Dizzy, a Swordsman craves these things not."

Nealoc187
Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:15 pm
#31

About the TKM being able to take out anything in the game that's not true. I use MHS because it deals more damage against heavily armored targets than TKM does. Have you ever tried punching a Krayt Dragon or Dark Jedi Master? with VKs on, you do about 25 damage. That's not much damage considering those mobs both have upwards of 350K ham. Swordsman's damage, and damage types, are much more conducive to fighting the high end mobs in the game than TKM is. TKM's make better tanks because they have more toughness, but they don't deal nearly the damage that MHS does when fighting those hard targets.



Nealoc Steele
-RA-
sVn
TickTock
Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:47 pm
#32

It's true that TKA isn't really in line with the other brawler professions. Everyone has HAM costs, so exclaiming that you can't spam your best moves with VK's at master at speed cap isn't going to win a whole lot of sympathy. One of the equalizers that used to allow TK's a measure of leeway was they had no bleeds. This was fine when bleeds were good, but now they are almost worthless.


The problem is that TKA gets TOO much of the best.

- Unarmed almost totally ignores mitigation, whereas it nearly cripples a lot of the other brawler professions in PvP.

- Defenses almost as good as Fencer, and the best toughness rating in the game.

- Ability to spam 3k hits at speed cap at Master.

- A KD move in the profession (not requiring MBrawler)

- VERY High accuracy. When I was TKM, I never had to worry about missing. Ever.

- Stun, dizzy and blind state affects.

- Target any of the three pools at will. And the unarmed mindhit does the most damage of the three.

- Self wound-healing

- Self HAM buffing

- Self disease/poison cure


After all of these cookies, the only penalty in the entire profession is the single damage type. Honestly, this doesn't come into play that often. Besides that, there is no penalty to the profession of note. Swordsman are powerful, but they have little in the way of defenses or status affects. Fencers have awesome defense, but the least power of the brawler profs. Pikes have average power, poor defenses, but are great with state affects. TKA currently get the best of all worlds, and the single damage type is no longer a sufficient penalty.
Settbacca
Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:47 pm
#33

Im only 0/4/3/4 swordsman/tkm but I can kill things 3x fast with my scythe and mind damage then I could targeting specific pools with tk. I cut through spell weavers, rangers and sentinels last night like they were warm butter. One cycle of CoB and they were dead. Using 220 damage vks on the same NS takes me a lot longer to kill.....mind damage coming from swordsman is insane and i have yet to reach master. My jaw was hitting the floor last night as I layed waist to NS protectors who, before I got swordsman, would usually havetheir way with me.



Sett'bacca
TacD
Balute
Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:01 pm
#34






TickTock wrote:

How can one accurately judge the balance of Swordsman vs. TKA when one is both at the same time? You can't. You aren't comparing TKA to Swordsman, you are comparing TKA to Swordsman/TKA. ie, a Swordsman with a lot of the defensive bonuses of TKA along with all the benefits of the meditation line. Of COURSE Swordsman looks fine when you have the stacked defenses of Rifle and TKA, because you are completely circumventing one of the main penalties of Swordsman, and that is a lack of defense.


I have Mastered and held at SEPARATE times all of the brawler and marksman professions. Swordsman, pikes, and fencers each have niches with strengths and weaknesses. TKA however is the total package, of offense, defense, state affects and abilities. That doesn't mean I'm demanding nerfs, as the combat revamp may improve the state of combat among many professions. I do however think the biggest bone of contention between TKA and the other brawler professions is melee mitigation. Its heavily lopsided affect is doing more harm than good, and if it vanished tomorrow I would cry no tears for its demise.





TickTock, you may be right about that. I WAS viewing it as a Swordsman/HS combo, not individually. And as that combo, I certainly do have some pretty damn good defenses.


Now, what about melee mitigation? Does the HS melee mitigation3 not work or something? Or is it different from theTKM melee mitigation 3?





IKAIKA  FIGHTER  FOTM
POHAKU  CRAFTER - GIMPED
KAMEHAMEHA  JEDI  FUBARD
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
TickTock
Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:18 pm
#35


Well, mitigation is a tricky little issue. Why they implemented it, I have no idea. Is it working? Yes. How does it work? Well, there lies part of the problem. Mitigation is a % reduction of the damage range of your opponent's hit. What does that mean?


Let's say that I am wielding a weapon that does 100-400 damage. Normally this weapon has an average damage of 250. Now, if my opponent has melee mitigation 3, that reduces my max damage range by 60%, so it is as if I am attacking them with a weapon that does 100-220. How do I get that number? On a 100-400 damage weapon, the damage range is 300. Reducing that by 60% gives me 120, so my range is now 100-220. Average damage of 165. A 34% damage reduction.


Now, let's say that I use a weapon that does 230-270. Same average damage of 250. Again, my opponent has melee mitigation 3, reducing my max damage range by 60%. The damage range on this weapon is 40 points. A 60% reduction of that is 16. My new damage range is 230-246. My new average damage is 238. About a 9% damage reduction.


Most Swordsman, Pikeman, and Fencer weapons follow the pattern of the first example. They have large damage ranges. ie, 125-450, 50-250, 110-300, etc.


TKA follow the second example, because they receive the lion's share of their bonus damage not from their weapon, but from +unarmed damage bonuses in their trees, which add to both max and min damages.


Hence, mitigation feeds everyone except the TKA the proverbial shaft.

Message Edited by TickTock on 03-24-2004 04:19 PM

Balute
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:12 am
#36

Pretty interesting discussion. Not all true, not all false. Here's my take as a (current) TKM/Rifleman/Swordsman 0404, going for MHS/Rifleman/TKA 4004.


1. KD/Dizzy - With the advent of the KD resist foods, and knowing how to deal with getting KD'd (i.e. /stand...pause...wait for reaction, THEN /stand again as needed) this is not really much of a problem anymore, and has rarely been a deciding factor in my PvP battles (something like 2 times in the last 2 months or so, and this is w/ almost daily PvP'ing). Anyone who is getting killed because they have been KD'd is either a)not buffed, b) not armored, c)spamming /stand instead of doing it one try at a time, d) new to PvPing, e) retarded, or f) combination of all the above. I get KD'd just about every day, and still get up because I can keep my head in the middle of a battle.


2. HAM costs w/ specials: TKM specials ARE lower than HS. But both those professions aint got chit against a rifleman. The HAM costs of using Strafe2 are roughly 1.5 to 2x the weapons specs. Unbuffed, and speed capped, I can incap myself in 4 seconds w/ my T21 using strafe2. So both you 2, S T F U and deal with it.


3. Buffs/Armor: If you aren't fighting, especially PvP, w/ buffs and armor you are flat out retarded. With todays PvP environment, fighting like this is just an easy way to loose FP. I always fight buffed and armored. I even went out and bought specific armor for different situations. Stun Comp for PvP, Base 70% (sliced eff. to 80%) comp for fighting mobs that fire back at me, and base 74% ubese to fight kinetic critters. And the mandatory shield generators for chit's and giggles. Besides, if you have your secondaries buffed, including the mind pools, you will have little to no worries about spamming specials all day long.


4. Damage: The reason I'm going HS after being a TKM is that HS does more damage over a TKM. Period. No "if-ands-or-buts" about it. Last night I felt confident enough to pull out my PH in a PvP attack, and I tell you, HS3 is just GREAT in damaging the mind pool. It ranks right up there w/ my Jawa Ion for damage, even if it is slower. I was able to kill some Imp TKM w/ HS3, w/o suffering hardly ANY damage myself. I'll take my AP2 PH (spd 5.4, max 700 w/ powerup) over my AP1 vk's anyday now.


Also, I'm getting way more damage against higher end mobs using my PH and scyth than I did as a TKA.


So once again, as a guy who has played 3 of the 4 most HAM requiring proffessions (Carbs. being the 4th), everyone S T F U and get back to playing.



IKAIKA  FIGHTER  FOTM
POHAKU  CRAFTER - GIMPED
KAMEHAMEHA  JEDI  FUBARD
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
TickTock
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:38 am
#37

Stupid double posting.

Message Edited by TickTock on 03-24-2004 02:54 PM

jedi464
Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:51 pm
#38

lemme spell it out for you morons, 1 sec speed, and useing UH3 about 80 cost per hit, thats about 800 cost for every 2handed specil about, it cost alot bozos, plus we need more than a reg buff to survive, our moves cost as much action as mind, we need to get doc buffs and muon and brandy





we are very costley but morons dont see that because all you see is cheap move cost, not how many times that move is pulled of



O AND BTW RIFLEMAN COMMANDO SWORDSMAN FENCER TKM CAN ALL KILL JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IN GAME FULLY BUFFED WITH ARMOR!!!



T'ossk
Eclipse
New Republic Navy

Jedi in Training
TheVeginator
Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:02 pm
#39






jedi464 wrote:

lemme spell it out for you morons, 1 sec speed, and useing UH3 about 80 cost per hit, thats about 800 cost for every 2handed specil about, it cost alot bozos, plus we need more than a reg buff to survive, our moves cost as much action as mind, we need to get doc buffs and muon and brandy





we are very costley but morons dont see that because all you see is cheap move cost, not how many times that move is pulled of



O AND BTW RIFLEMAN COMMANDO SWORDSMAN FENCER TKM CAN ALL KILL JUST ABOUT ANYTHING IN GAME FULLY BUFFED WITH ARMOR!!!




Are you trying to say it takes 10 seconds for a swordsman to do a special?




The-Veginator, Bria
Master Medic, Master Doctor, Master Swordsman, Ex-Master Combat Medic
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