Swordsman Archive

Thread: More Bleed Changes

StGabriel
Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:13 am
#1

Just an fyi:

Bleeds seem to have been changed more on TC. At present they deal direct damage on the initial hit but the actual ticking bleed is less significant by a good margin. It looks as though this applies to flames and most (but probably not all) other DoT sources.

So, we probably have an across the board change to bleeds making the actual bleed less effective in general but dealing damage on the initial strike. I am under the impression that the intention is to downplay tactics that rely on a single bleed and to require continuous direct damage.

Alright, there's the info, please don't shoot the messenger.


Personal opinion: I can live with this (as a player) as long as the combat rebalance makes up for it. I don't like the idea of bleed kiting and would prefer that attacks in general are very effective and that bleeds are more of an add-on instead of a primary source of damage. I think this is an attempt to reduce the effectiveness of certain "cheap" tactics that unfortunately may deal more damage than just that. That doesn't mean I'm not making a big ruckus about it (as a correspondent). In terms of our relative balance with other professions this is definitely a loss, and one I don't think anyone is going to say we deserve. For example, I know that a lot of people are going to comment that "TKA's don't have bleeds", and that's absolutely a relevant issue. At this point I think the change is almost certainly staying in for the publish, no matter what. I think our best bet for seeing some action on this is to save up for the combat rebalance and push hard then if this isn't counterbalanced by something else. That doesn't mean there's nothing to be said about the issue, that's just my impression of how to best address this (I've found that getting changes in really requires saving up your ammo for the right moments). So take that as strategy talk and feel free to speak out on what you think about this.



So discuss.

StGabe.



--- The Clan McDonnell ---

Gaffyn McDonnell -- Master of Blades (master fencer/swordsman/brawler)
Flynn McDonnell -- Master Weapon Smith (+22 exp), Armorsmith (+25 exp)
Lorrinne McDonnell -- Nightsister (pike/doc)

shutout
Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:22 am
#2

this will make taking on any high level mobs that much more difficult. its the DoTs that make them managable. first they raise the HAM on all of these things, now they take away our most effective way to compete. i'm just waiting for the devs to put 99% resists on everything, so that we'll have a hard time taking out kreetles.



--
Soull Halcyon: Master Sharpshooter-Teras Kasi Master

Havik Halcyon: Master Pikeman-Master Heavy Swordsman
haun
Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:53 am
#3




i know that the combat changes are coming - blah blah blah - we have been hearing that for months but we don't even have a proposed concept in front of what is going to really happy.



it's pretty frustrating when everything seems to just nerf us more and more.


why not wait and do it when they balance everything else?



guess we need to wait and see


at any rate thanks gabe




Message Edited by haun on 02-09-2004 01:54 AM



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"Everything seems calm here..."
Ethalsar
Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:56 am
#4






shutout wrote:

this will make taking on any high level mobs that much more difficult. its the DoTs that make them managable. first they raise the HAM on all of these things, now they take away our most effective way to compete. i'm just waiting for the devs to put 99% resists on everything, so that we'll have a hard time taking out kreetles.




Didn't the devs say from waaay back that they wanted high-level mobs to be unmanageable by soloists or small groups? I've seen posts here recently explaining how to use bleeds to take down rancors etc, and I'm guessing that this is exactly the sort of thing the devs were trying to avoid.


In the game stats published in a Friday feature a few weeks ago, there was a comment about the number of red cons that people were taking on both as solos and in groups, with the implication that this wasn't on - that it would be tackled in the future. Hello, future.


Makes sense to me. In the continuity, Skwalker can't take out Jabba's rancor - he has to trick the beast under a closing door in order to kill it. Sure he hadn't finished his training... but I think my point stands. This is the sort of continuity evidence the devs would have to consider when balancing creatures vs players.





Aethal Sar, Weaponsmith. Retired from game - probably missing it already!

Links you may be interested in:
The SWG Links Library; the Doctor hunting list; and a summary of resource stat caps.
raider7734
Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:10 am
#5








Bleeds seem to have been changed more on TC. At present they deal direct damage on the initial hit but the actual ticking bleed is less significant by a good margin. It looks as though this applies to flames and most (but probably not all) other DoT sources.



If this means bleeds are reduced by armor and resists, I'm fine with it. I never thought it made much sense that my bleeds flew right throughheavy armor andresists.


Stepping back for the bigger picture, this change is going to rip off one of the bandaids that helped make us decent,especially in high end pve, where medium and heavy armor plus resistances are common.


Right now, our bleeds are equivalent to a free headhit3 and headhit2 every 20 seconds, not reduced by armor or resists... that's awesome. After the nerf, it's going to be like afree headhit3 every 20 seconds, reduced by armor and resists... big deal.



Full strength bleeds went a long way in covering up our shortcomings in damage output(talking about Swordsman with the basic+75 or +80 speed here)... with bleeds being nerfed, it's imperitave that we get buffed in our damage dealing power.


To be fair,our swordsshould clearly outdamagethevibroknuckler(sorry to bring up TK here, but the devs have made them thebenchmark for melee damage output). The more-offense, less-defense nature of our profession demands it.


I agree with your strategy...so much is already on the table with the combat rebalance,it makes sense to wait and see how things develop, and push for changeswhen thetime looks right.




----------
IGN Kye • vendor wp -1444, -3847 Naboo
"Persistence is synthetic Luck"
Kolhart
Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:13 pm
#6

I dunno about you guys, but taking out high level mobs is what I play for. Seems like Dev's push for large groups. But, with the lag on Bria, along with the small amount of good loot, I have no desire to group when Im going after tough mobs. I don't remember ever playing a game where if you were good you couldnt beat the top creatures. I read a guys signature post and it said "SWG is like nicotine, after every patch you are closer to quitting" Im not a get mad and threaten to quit kinda guy. But, if I cant solo top creatures I think that will lose the fun for me. Also, I think patches are a way of a un-balancing. In effect, they make leave some professions stronger and nerf others so you dont stay static, a means of making you switch professions often. For instance if bleeds are nerfed many people will go doc/TKA or Commando/TKA or CM/TKA because these classes can now still solo anything. TKA has had it good for so long, and they continue to nerf other classes, makes no sense to me. Kinda how they killed the CH/Commando combo that was soloing everything. I see no reason that players cannot be powerful, the biggest thrill I get is soloing mobs with 50-400k ham. I could not be content beating up on small animals. Thanks.


Kolias Bria Server


MasterBrawler/Master Swordsman


Sotaudi
Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:16 pm
#7






Ethalsar wrote:





shutout wrote:

this will make taking on any high level mobs that much more difficult. its the DoTs that make them managable. first they raise the HAM on all of these things, now they take away our most effective way to compete. i'm just waiting for the devs to put 99% resists on everything, so that we'll have a hard time taking out kreetles.




Didn't the devs say from waaay back that they wanted high-level mobs to be unmanageable by soloists or small groups? I've seen posts here recently explaining how to use bleeds to take down rancors etc, and I'm guessing that this is exactly the sort of thing the devs were trying to avoid.


In the game stats published in a Friday feature a few weeks ago, there was a comment about the number of red cons that people were taking on both as solos and in groups, with the implication that this wasn't on - that it would be tackled in the future. Hello, future.


Makes sense to me. In the continuity, Skwalker can't take out Jabba's rancor - he has to trick the beast under a closing door in order to kill it. Sure he hadn't finished his training... but I think my point stands. This is the sort of continuity evidence the devs would have to consider when balancing creatures vs players.







Just to be picky (please take this in the light-hearted manner it is offered), your argument needs work. True,Luke had major problems with the Rancor. However, as I recall, he did not use the force (not to bright of a tactic on his part), and he was unarmed and not trained as a TKA. Yet, despite the problems he had, the rancor was dead at the end. So, you have basicallyjust proven that a non-force-wielding, unarmed, non-TKA should be able to take on a Rancor and win.




Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



Gorecki
Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:25 pm
#8






Sotaudi wrote:





Ethalsar wrote:





shutout wrote:

this will make taking on any high level mobs that much more difficult. its the DoTs that make them managable. first they raise the HAM on all of these things, now they take away our most effective way to compete. i'm just waiting for the devs to put 99% resists on everything, so that we'll have a hard time taking out kreetles.




Didn't the devs say from waaay back that they wanted high-level mobs to be unmanageable by soloists or small groups? I've seen posts here recently explaining how to use bleeds to take down rancors etc, and I'm guessing that this is exactly the sort of thing the devs were trying to avoid.


In the game stats published in a Friday feature a few weeks ago, there was a comment about the number of red cons that people were taking on both as solos and in groups, with the implication that this wasn't on - that it would be tackled in the future. Hello, future.


Makes sense to me. In the continuity, Skwalker can't take out Jabba's rancor - he has to trick the beast under a closing door in order to kill it. Sure he hadn't finished his training... but I think my point stands. This is the sort of continuity evidence the devs would have to consider when balancing creatures vs players.







Just to be picky (please take this in the light-hearted manner it is offered), your argument needs work. True,Luke had major problems with the Rancor. However, as I recall, he did not use the force (not to bright of a tactic on his part), and he was unarmed and not trained as a TKA. Yet, despite the problems he had, the rancor was dead at the end. So, you have basicallyjust proven that a non-force-wielding, unarmed, non-TKA should be able to take on a Rancor and win.





...didn't he use a 2h bone ?




Master Swordsman / Master Smuggler
APEist_theReb
Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:40 pm
#9

lol. yea the bone was probly 23-65 dmg, 6 speed tho so he couldnt do **edit** against it.


umm, anyways... it really pisses me off how they don't seem to try and strike a balance when the patches roll round. what i mean is they almost always take more away then they give. im allright with this as long as we get something to compensate, maybe like a knock down/blind move to replace sweep 2.


ive always wanted one of those. it would be a great defensive move when u think about it. ur knocking em down to give ur self some time to get ur wits together and u blind him to shake up his offense a little. anyone else think that'd be cool??



APEist

Rebel Soldier of VYRIS

If I had a penny for all the people I've damned,
I'd be a trillionaire, and btw, damn you.


+80 speed and I'll still kick your ass.

Swordsman Motto: We like our women like our enemies, hammered.

-Rurouni-
Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:32 pm
#10

how about CM poison Gabe?
StGabriel
Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:42 pm
#11

I don't really know about CM poison, but I suspect that it is not affected. I'll try to find out.

None of this is "official", this is just how it is working on TC at the moment. But I think we're kind of in lock-down mode and however it is now is likely to stay to live.



--- The Clan McDonnell ---

Gaffyn McDonnell -- Master of Blades (master fencer/swordsman/brawler)
Flynn McDonnell -- Master Weapon Smith (+22 exp), Armorsmith (+25 exp)
Lorrinne McDonnell -- Nightsister (pike/doc)

AriasImmortal
Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:16 pm
#12

IMO, any and all combat changes made at this point (publish #6) are not well thought out.


We are not getting any extra compensation in the way of extra damage or defenses (no, the scythe does not make up for this) whatsoever, so all this does is reduce our damage output (and that of all other classes that rely on bleeds to get damage done) without anything to make up for it.


The developers should have waiteduntil the combat revamp (publish #8) to make ANY and ALL changes to combat. example: TKAs have no bleeds, so they do the exact same damage output, without getting touched by this patch. Therefore, they need to bring others damage output in line with TKAs NOW, and not wait till the combat revamp, because for 2 months (or however long it takes them) we will be doing reduced damage when compared to TKAs (and yes, TKAs are the benchmark for melee damage output).


If they had waited until the combat revamp to apply these changes, then we would probably be getting some compensation for it. Because they have not, we will be less effective in between publish6 and publish 8, while some professions (professions that do not rely on bleeds... aka, TKA) will have absolutly no change until then.


Even worse is the fact that MCMs don't get affected by this at all... poisons/diseases are combat DoTs, they should have the same effect applied to them.


My final opinion: The devs screwed up again by applying these changes now, and there will be nothing to make up for them for another 2 months, while certain professions do not feel the sting of this at all, and are unaffected, except when they happen to be fighting a swordsman, pikeman, commando, etc. It was ill-thought out... but that seems to be the norm for this publish (we still have decay in PvP? WTH?).


I will now be killing NS elders till i get some kind of 2h weapon with a mind DoT, or one wtih amazing damage/speed, to make up for this nerf.



ARIAS TE'THAI
Master Swordsman|Elevator Wh0re
ECHUU|ECHUU-SHEN
Jedi Knight |Mandalorian Enforcer
Day One player/Pre-9 Jedi/PvP God. All gone. Canceled.

Abominable-TCO
Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:53 pm
#13


Can 20 (or however many are lucky enough to be in a group, personally I ahve never seen more than one or two of any type in a group unless its the current fad) all still land the same bleed and have them all tick? if so I don't see this as too much of a problem it will just mean grouping if you want to take on a really High level critter. If only one bleed ticks then we are in trouble.


Also will the mind bleeds from riflemen stack or is it one bleed only per PC.

Message Edited by Abominable-TCO on 02-10-2004 10:59 AM



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