Squad Leader Archive
Thread: SOE Helios Brainstorming on Jedi in the GCW
BadMisterFrosty wrote:
SOE_Helios wrote: So it feels like to me (and I'm just talking here), that having Jedi participate in the GCW isn't the problem - nor should it be a problem (discounting the fictional conflict). I think everyone, regardless of their profession, should be able to enjoy as much of the game as possible. That being said, it feels to me like the real issue might be the fact that when Jedi do participate in GCW PvP combat, they tend to dominate the battle which can sour the experience for many non-Jedi.Personally, I still like the idea of Jedi influencing the GCW as the "big guns" but without decimating all other players on the field. Perhaps Jedi could have something additional / more pressing to do on the battlefield aside from crushing non-Jedi. Maybe high ranking players could occasionally call in NPC reinforcement that are especially suited for addressing opposing Jedi, or maybe Jedi must perform some task in a faction base before it can be taken, etc, etc.Just some brainstorming.I'd be interested in hearing your ideas in that direction
So am I
no comment
Yea... i've read that on Dev Tracker some days ago, wasn't really happy about it, either. Especially i didn't like the passage that jedi would have to do something to bust a base, then they suddenly would even be required in any basebusting team. This certainly doesn't fix the problem, quite on the contrary, it would massively increase the problem as a non-jedi group finally would not be viable in GCW any more at all.
While i agree that the GCW currently has too much Jedi-Influence [in case some people don't know how bad it is, take a look here or here, those videos were made on Saturday on Infinity on a great and fair 4 hours battle on Lok.] and should be reduced, the given concept is faulty.
I certainly don't want NPCs to fight our battle (heck, that was the frustrating part on the battle, we had the Rebel SF Special Ops HQ sliced and were defending when all around us lv. 93 guards spawned. They hurt us more than the whole mass of enemy players...) and i have no idea of how to keep Jedi busy with themselvey yet. My only idea would be that the Jedi-protection should be decreased against otherJedi abilities, to Jedi would be especially good in killing other Jedi.
Thus the Jedi suddenly would be completely focused on eliminating those who pose the biggest threat on them, other Jedi, while mostly ignoring "normal" players. If this is viable or not, no idea, it's still better than the idea of SOE_Helios here.
Message Edited by Sylow on 08-08-2005 06:55 PM
This weekend I was lucky enough to get involved in some small group PvP. A group of 3 imperials walked into out town and started a fuss, so we engaged them. It was unbalanced, our 5 against their 3, with a Jedi on each side. Fun fight, the two jedi's tangled while us "normal" people duked it out. We won.
An hour later they come back, with 2 jedi. So we bring out two jedi. We still outnumber them, 10 to 6. We win again, but this time it's obvious that the Jedi are running the fight. They open up with saber throws to knockdown half of us, then use dervishes to nearly kill us all. Thank goodness for charge shot. Then when the fight is almost over, one of them uses Avoid Incap. I'ld never personally seen it used before, but we beat on him for the next 2 minutes solid. All 10 of us just laying everything we had into him for the next two minutes, he had 0 health, but kept standing and fighting back. 6 Master carbineers spamming LegShot, a rifleman spamming Sniper Shot, and 2 jedi beating on him. And he stood there fighting back, and in fact killed two of us before he finally died, presumably because he ran out of force.
Now WHAT in god's name does this have to do with the GCW? A single jedi can walk into a town with a ranged knockdown, healing, decent-range AOE's, heavy damage, and is virtually invincible? That's not GCW.. That's just ridiculous. Let the jedi have their fun, but get away from the GCW. Jedi on Jedi looks fun. Jedi on "normal folks" just seems ludicrous.
Yeraze wrote:
Yeah, that kinda annoyed me too.
This weekend I was lucky enough to get involved in some small group PvP. A group of 3 imperials walked into out town and started a fuss, so we engaged them. It was unbalanced, our 5 against their 3, with a Jedi on each side. Fun fight, the two jedi's tangled while us "normal" people duked it out. We won.
An hour later they come back, with 2 jedi. So we bring out two jedi. We still outnumber them, 10 to 6. We win again, but this time it's obvious that the Jedi are running the fight. They open up with saber throws to knockdown half of us, then use dervishes to nearly kill us all. Thank goodness for charge shot. Then when the fight is almost over, one of them uses Avoid Incap. I'ld never personally seen it used before, but we beat on him for the next 2 minutes solid. All 10 of us just laying everything we had into him for the next two minutes, he had 0 health, but kept standing and fighting back. 6 Master carbineers spamming LegShot, a rifleman spamming Sniper Shot, and 2 jedi beating on him. And he stood there fighting back, and in fact killed two of us before he finally died, presumably because he ran out of force.
Now WHAT in god's name does this have to do with the GCW? A single jedi can walk into a town with a ranged knockdown, healing, decent-range AOE's, heavy damage, and is virtually invincible? That's not GCW.. That's just ridiculous. Let the jedi have their fun, but get away from the GCW. Jedi on Jedi looks fun. Jedi on "normal folks" just seems ludicrous.
Its all about stratagy. If you had that many on a single AI jedi and hekilled 2 before going down...you weren't doing it right. That doesn't mean that jedi are ubar in PVP. It means that the normals have to play smarter.
I agree that it would be nice to see less jedi in the GCW, but there are so many, I don't see it being possible.
!
KJFett3 wrote:
Yeraze wrote:
Yeah, that kinda annoyed me too.
This weekend I was lucky enough to get involved in some small group PvP. A group of 3 imperials walked into out town and started a fuss, so we engaged them. It was unbalanced, our 5 against their 3, with a Jedi on each side. Fun fight, the two jedi's tangled while us "normal" people duked it out. We won.
An hour later they come back, with 2 jedi. So we bring out two jedi. We still outnumber them, 10 to 6. We win again, but this time it's obvious that the Jedi are running the fight. They open up with saber throws to knockdown half of us, then use dervishes to nearly kill us all. Thank goodness for charge shot. Then when the fight is almost over, one of them uses Avoid Incap. I'ld never personally seen it used before, but we beat on him for the next 2 minutes solid. All 10 of us just laying everything we had into him for the next two minutes, he had 0 health, but kept standing and fighting back. 6 Master carbineers spamming LegShot, a rifleman spamming Sniper Shot, and 2 jedi beating on him. And he stood there fighting back, and in fact killed two of us before he finally died, presumably because he ran out of force.
Now WHAT in god's name does this have to do with the GCW? A single jedi can walk into a town with a ranged knockdown, healing, decent-range AOE's, heavy damage, and is virtually invincible? That's not GCW.. That's just ridiculous. Let the jedi have their fun, but get away from the GCW. Jedi on Jedi looks fun. Jedi on "normal folks" just seems ludicrous.
Its all about stratagy. If you had that many on a single AI jedi and he killed 2 before going down...you weren't doing it right. That doesn't mean that jedi are ubar in PVP. It means that the normals have to play smarter.
I agree that it would be nice to see less jedi in the GCW, but there are so many, I don't see it being possible.
Well, it was a PC Jedi, not AI. My argument was basically that if a single Jedi can become the total focus of the battle, then it's not so much "Destroy the Empire!" and it's "Destroy the Jedi!". I don't want to ruin their fun, I don't want to sink them into XP debt, It's nothing personal against them. But when they start showing up and taking over the fight, what else can you do? I became a SL to lead groups of soldiers into full scale war, not groups of Jedi into duels. The way the system is working right now, when you get more than about 2 jedi in one place, nobody else really matters.
As for the "so many jedi" argument, I have to turn that 180 and go totally the opposite. There's finally enough jedi for them to engage in their own "shadow war" of light vs dark, and leave the GCW to the real soldiers.
Message Edited by Yeraze on 08-08-2005 01:51 PM
I'm grinding out to be a Jedi. *Days later* Hey guys, I have no idea how to actually play, but since I'm Jedi, you all have to follow what I say since I'm better than all of you non Jedi. SL, yeah, you may be a master, but I'm Jedi so no, you can't take lead. I only play this game so I can get Jedi. Screw actual play and all that, I just want Jedi. I don't want to have fun. I just want to be L33t and Uber and cool since I'm a pathetic loser at home in real life and I'm an ass in real life as well and I suck. What? You said you don't agree with my idea? I'm going to have you banned.
Now I've run into all sorts of these types of things. I've run into players who all they play for is to be Jedi. Well, once you reach Jedi and you don't rp, what's next? Personally, I'm wondering what I'm going to do after I get Master Pilot and Colonel. both things I'm working toward because that's who the character is. Rebel Pilot, Master Squad Leader, Lieutenant in the Alliance. Being top rank in all those things is who Talley is. I'm not here to be Jedi. I started playing SWG because I like the universe. I normally don't do mmorpgs because after you get topped out...what's next? You've been all the professions, you've got all the badges and if no new content is brought out...what next. I don't even play FPS's because there is nothing that stimulates my mind with it.
Now going back to the Jedi thing, what they need to do is bring in Jedi only content. If they have it, bring in more and keep the game to us non-jedi. Bring in a vette or something that challenges them. Yes, like the CL194 SBD or something. A jedi who can just "Force" his way out of stuff leads to boring play time at least unless it's a true challenge. Sure, fix Jedi, but fix the normal profs first. We're the ones that are the up and coming Jedi (general statement, no one is included, no one is left out) Or make a Jedi only server.
If you go with the movies, yeah, sure, in 1-3 there are jedi, but in my movies of 4-6 there's what 5.5 jedi (Vader, Emporer, Luke, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Leia)? Most people in the movies weren't Jedi? Else Espa would've been crawling with Jedi and Anakin would've called Qui-gon's lightsaber a lightsaber instead of a laser sword. And besides, the Emporer had all the Jedi exterminated so they couldn't take him out. Why would there be a ton of Jedi around? Wouldn't that threaten the Emporer's base of power? Even the Sith would kill the Emporer for that kind of power. I know I would if I was Sith. In the GCW, it is about Control vs Freedom. Not Light vs Dark, Not Rebels vs Imperials, but for or against freedom of the people.
Now I will say that there are several Jedi that I'm friends with but only one that I worship. I don't hate Jedi, but making the game all about Jedi makes the game lose their its from what the truth behind Star Wars really is as far as I feel.
It was a PC jedi running AI that I was refering to. I would say here how to deal with them, but don't want to result in the deaths of my brothers.
Yeraze wrote:
KJFett3 wrote:
Yeraze wrote:
Yeah, that kinda annoyed me too.
This weekend I was lucky enough to get involved in some small group PvP. A group of 3 imperials walked into out town and started a fuss, so we engaged them. It was unbalanced, our 5 against their 3, with a Jedi on each side. Fun fight, the two jedi's tangled while us "normal" people duked it out. We won.
An hour later they come back, with 2 jedi. So we bring out two jedi. We still outnumber them, 10 to 6. We win again, but this time it's obvious that the Jedi are running the fight. They open up with saber throws to knockdown half of us, then use dervishes to nearly kill us all. Thank goodness for charge shot. Then when the fight is almost over, one of them uses Avoid Incap. I'ld never personally seen it used before, but we beat on him for the next 2 minutes solid. All 10 of us just laying everything we had into him for the next two minutes, he had 0 health, but kept standing and fighting back. 6 Master carbineers spamming LegShot, a rifleman spamming Sniper Shot, and 2 jedi beating on him. And he stood there fighting back, and in fact killed two of us before he finally died, presumably because he ran out of force.
Now WHAT in god's name does this have to do with the GCW? A single jedi can walk into a town with a ranged knockdown, healing, decent-range AOE's, heavy damage, and is virtually invincible? That's not GCW.. That's just ridiculous. Let the jedi have their fun, but get away from the GCW. Jedi on Jedi looks fun. Jedi on "normal folks" just seems ludicrous.
Its all about stratagy. If you had that many on a single AI jedi and he killed 2 before going down...you weren't doing it right. That doesn't mean that jedi are ubar in PVP. It means that the normals have to play smarter.
I agree that it would be nice to see less jedi in the GCW, but there are so many, I don't see it being possible.
Well, it was a PC Jedi, not AI. My argument was basically that if a single Jedi can become the total focus of the battle, then it's not so much "Destroy the Empire!" and it's "Destroy the Jedi!". I don't want to ruin their fun, I don't want to sink them into XP debt, It's nothing personal against them. But when they start showing up and taking over the fight, what else can you do? I became a SL to lead groups of soldiers into full scale war, not groups of Jedi into duels. The way the system is working right now, when you get more than about 2 jedi in one place, nobody else really matters.
As for the "so many jedi" argument, I have to turn that 180 and go totally the opposite. There's finally enough jedi for them to engage in their own "shadow war" of light vs dark, and leave the GCW to the real soldiers.
Message Edited by Yeraze on 08-08-2005 01:51 PM
Yeraze wrote:
Doh.. I saw AI and through Artificial Intelligence, not Avoid Incap.. lol...
Those are mobs...or NPCs...nothing Intelligent about them. A couple weeks ago, a thread popped up in the Kettemoor forums asking what was needed to take down a base. I wasn't in the first 20 responses, but I was the first to link (or list) the professions needed. All the previous posts had 2 things: the name of a toon with a base take-down template and Jedi.
I did have the pleasure a little over a month or two ago of participating in a PvP base assault in which the effectiveness of the Jedi on both sides was highly limited. Said base was on a plateau, with rifleman and turrets defenders, and the offensive force placed a pve base at the bottom of the cliff as a rally point. In order to attempt to fire at the turrets, you placed yourself at risk from the defending turrents and rifle / carbine users, not to mention the minefields placed, which was enough to give Jedi pause. This didn't give defending Jedi an advantage either, because going too close to the edge of the cliff put you at risk of fire from the army marshalled at the bottom. I don't even know how long it took for the assault army to get complete control of the cliffside, much less how long to get an operating turrent on the plateau, but the entire battle lasted well over the vuln time of the base. Even at that point, it was a ranged war with a no man's land killing field constantly trying to drive the defenders into the base. This is not to say the Jedi had nothing to do, for the defending Jedi were trying to sneak around to get behind enimy lines while offensive Jedi were out trying to hunt them down.
As for the topic on limiting (or not) Jedi within the GCW, I think its a very tricky situation. While I'm sure a Light / Dark shadow war would be very interesting to many, others would still like to be in the GCW I'm sure. As for completely removing Jedi from the GCW, the question comes at whatlevel do you remove them? A few people unlock for the second account, but never grind Jedi - are these padawan's with no skill points or xp into Jedi removed? What about partial templates dablers (master normal prof / Jedi - I know of a few MBH / Jedi out there, and a few other weird combos) would could still technically wear armor and use weapons being somewhat effective without their Jedi skills? And if they are removed, how is this accomplished, do you strip them of their faction and place them in a Light or Dark Side faction? If so, how do you deal with Imperial and Rebel pilots? Its an interesting question how SOE wishes to deal with Jedi and the GCW, and one which has the attention of a large percentage of the player base. Personally, I don't have an opinion on if they are removed or not, but I don't want to see alot more "Jedi Required Content", I want to see more content that any group of 8 organized players can tackle without needing sabers.