Squad Leader Archive
Thread: DEV ADVICE: FIX and IMPLEMENT the Leadership Skill Mod
Page 1 of 3
ObsidianWrath
Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:50 pm
#1
Hi, guys.
The initial response that I received on this topic seemed overwhelmingly positive. Individuals from both sides of "the aisle" seemed to agree that the implementation of this presently defunct skill mod could be the middle ground that many of us are looking for with the "multiple squad leaders in a group" and "squad leader as the group leader" debate. As such, I'm going to put it to a semi-formal petition and see what the response is.
For those of you who have no idea what we're talking about, the Leadership skill mod is a skill that was introduced and never formally implemented. Human characters receive a racial bonus (+10 Leadership) that has never done anything noticeable to the game mechanics. As such, we believe it is presently inert.
The proposition on the table would be to fix and formally implement Leadership as the "skill mod of choice" for Squad Leader. The easiest way to explain this is to compare and contrast the modification to what we find similarly in other professions' skill sets. As many of you know, Medics / Doctors / Combat Medics have skill mods such as Healing Efficiency and Cure Efficiency. The more points a Medic, Doctor, or Combat Medic has in these various skills, the more effective or "potent" their heals / buffs / cures are in combat. Basically, someone who has more points in Healing Efficiency would heal more damage in a single action, and these points are awarded in incrementally higher doses depending upon how far one goes in a profession.
Those of us who support this idea would like to see the exact same thing happen with Squad Leader. Our proposition is to place a modifier to the Leadership skill in every box of Squad Leader and introduce the same system that other professions use to determine the potency of our group and individual buffs. What this would mean is that a Master Squad Leader would have substantially more points in Leadership (a few from every box), and would therefore have vastly more powerful modifications on the group than, say, a Novice Squad Leader. This is purely logical, being that one who commits themselves to the great sacrifices of mastering the art of Leadership is doubtlessly going to be more effective than a Novice. While still capable, the Novice will not excel at the profession, thereby weighting each box in Squad Leader.
What would the advantages of this new system be, if implemented? There are several, and most are fairly easy to understand.
1.) The argument over "multiple squad leaders" and "squad leaders as group leaders" is a very heated one. On one side of the equation, you have the people that are genuinely worried about overstacking and overpowered buffs as a result of unmitigated dabblers providing full strength buffs to the Squad, just as a Master Squad Leader would. Under the present system, there is nothing to distinguish or discourage, and the potency of a Squad Leader with only one box would be the same as a Master of the Profession. If an intelligent group of PVPers mix and match their dabbling trees in Squad Leader, each could take only a few boxes at a very small loss of skill points to create a nightmare scenario where vastly overpowered groups dominate and unbalance combat in the game.
On the other hand, those who are against this ideology do have some valid points as well. For starters, fully "honorable" Squad Leaders could be placed in a situation where there aren't enough groups to go around. They still want to contribute to their team and use their skills, and they should be able to do so in some capacity without a restriction. Imagine, for example, being a Master Doctor in a group where only one Doctor could heal the group at a time. If there is already a Doctor in the group, we would all probably be very frustrated at our inability to play our chosen profession effectively. Honestly, I think this was the main consideration of the Devs when they suggested allowing multiple squad leaders in a group and not requiring the squad leader to be the group leader.
This solution would solve or mitigate both of these problems. For those who are scared of the unbalancing effects and subsequent nerfs that could come if the existing system is abused, mitigation would be in place to ensure that "1337-d00d" dabblers with only a couple boxes in Squad Leader would receive minimal buff power. The unbalancing nightmare would be solved, because the gap between potential exploiters and legitimate dabblers would be closed tremendously. Most of the people who would abuse this system are the ones who are in it for their own glory. They would not be the sort to sacrifice massive chunks of their template to assist the group in powerful ways.
For those who believe that there should be multiple squad leaders in a group and that the squad leader should not have to be the group leader, implementation of this system would allow you to argue from much stronger "footing," as it were. The unbalancing argument would be largely diffused, thereby making it a simple question of ideology. While I do honestly believe that the Squad Leader should be the Group Leader, with possible seconds or thirds in command listed, I am willing to suspend my logic in the interest of a fun playing experience for the entire community. I think you would find that many more people would be willing to comrpomise in this fashion, as well.
2.) Switching to this system would open the door for a restoration of "Squad Leader Experience" like we have not yet seen. By comparing and contrasting ourselves and our proposed skill to the existing professions and skills of Doctor / Medic / Combat Medic, we could very easily argue to implement an identical method of acquiring our unique experience once again. Healing professions acquire experience by actively healing / curing people in their group who are fighting against NPC's. When the NPC dies, the healer receives the same amount of healing experience that a fighter of the same combat level would receive for killing the NPC with a certain weapon type. Squad Leader Experience could be re-implemented using the exact same system. Those who we buff in combat who subsequently kill a target would provide SL XP equal to what a medic would get for healing them. We would use a system that is already built and implemented in the game, thereby making the transition very easy.
3.) The high-end game that most professions know would be opened to our profession formally. I'm talking, of course, about all of the tweaking that goes hand in hand with high-end PVPers and PVE players, who meticulously balance out their "food menu," BE'd clothing, and Skill-Enhancing Attachments for lethal combinations. Being that the Devs are clearly having problems fixing such issues as the Volley Fire, GTN, and Steady Aim skill tapes, one would think that introducing + Leadership tapes (a single mod) would be relatively easy and effective. Those Squad Leaders who want to take their profession to the extremes would be able to do so with newly implemented foods for Chefs, Bio-Engineered tailored goods for Tailors and Skill-Enhancing Attachments that would bump our potency above and beyond the current effectiveness ranges of Master Squad Leader. Presently, our effectiveness as Squad Leaders ends when we reach the Master Box. This would add "end-game" diversity and items for us to quest over, barter over, tweak and implement in new and creative ways. The most dilligent SL's would be rewarded for their end-game persistence at becoming the most capable Squad Leaders possible.
4.) Those who want to be actual Squad Leaders would still be able to help their group by applying buffs. One would guess that most "honorable" dabblers would probably take at least a full tree in Squad Leader to be effective, so points could be allocated so that one full tree more or less represents 25% of the over all effectiveness of the profession. Their contributions would still be noticeable while not deflating the potency of those who go all the way (and should thus be recognized) as Master Squad Leaders.
I am not going to pretend that I know every intricacy of managing a game like Star Wars Galaxies. As such, I would leave final decisions to the Dev team for balanced implementation of this system, with careful monitoring of diminishing returns and such to ensure that no one individual becomes grossly overpowered. The innate +10 Leadership received by Human characters should be balanced so that it is noticeable yet negligible in its effectiveness. There is nothing that says any other race should be a less effective leader, though we humans do seem to have a knack for pulling people together beneath troubling circumstances.
My proposition would be something like this:
Master Squad Leader: +25 Leadership
Box 4: +20 Leadership Box 4: +20 Leadership Box 4: +20 Leadership Box 4: +20 Leadership
Box 3: +15 Leadership Box 3: +15 Leadership Box 3: +15 Leadership Box 3: +15 Leadership
Box 2: +10 Leadership Box 2: +10 Leadership Box 2: +10 Leadership Box 2: +10 Leadership
Box 1: +05 Leadership Box 1: +05 Leadership Box 1: +05 Leadership Box 1: +05 Leadership
Box 3: +15 Leadership Box 3: +15 Leadership Box 3: +15 Leadership Box 3: +15 Leadership
Box 2: +10 Leadership Box 2: +10 Leadership Box 2: +10 Leadership Box 2: +10 Leadership
Box 1: +05 Leadership Box 1: +05 Leadership Box 1: +05 Leadership Box 1: +05 Leadership
Novice Squad Leader: +15 Leadership
As before, I would leave final balancing to the Devs, of course. This isn't a "proposition model" so much as a demonstration how each "accelerated" box of Squad Leader would enhance the effectiveness of the Squad Leader more and more.
This system could be adapted or changed so that each path had a different type of skill mod in it that effected only the buffs from its parent tree. I could see a system along these lines, as well, where "Leadership" would become the equivalent of a "General" modification that would augment all SL mods, such as "General Melee Speed" as opposed to "Two-Handed Weapon Speed" :
Master Squad Leader: +25 Leadership
Box 4: +20 Mobility Box 4: +20 Strategy Box 4: +20 Guidance Box 4: +20 Tactics
Box 3: +15 Mobility Box 3: +15 Strategy Box 3: +15 Guidance Box 3: +15 Tactics
Box 2: +10 Mobility Box 2: +10 Strategy Box 2: +10 Guidance Box 2: +10 Tactics
Box 1: +05 Mobility Box 1: +05 Strategy Box 1: +05 Guidance Box 1: +05 Tactics
Box 3: +15 Mobility Box 3: +15 Strategy Box 3: +15 Guidance Box 3: +15 Tactics
Box 2: +10 Mobility Box 2: +10 Strategy Box 2: +10 Guidance Box 2: +10 Tactics
Box 1: +05 Mobility Box 1: +05 Strategy Box 1: +05 Guidance Box 1: +05 Tactics
Novice Squad Leader: +15 Leadership
A system like this could give even more foods / tailored goods / SEA's for us to play with, as there would be many different skill mods to play around with. Personally, I think this sort of complication might be counterproductive, however. I'm a big fan of "KISS."
Another interesting note to consider is that we could possibly suggest or see smaller modifications in the Survival path of Scout. Perhaps they could receive very small Leadership modifications, or "miniature" group-buffing abilities similar in potency between Marksman or Brawler and its elite professions.
If you are supportive of this idea, please voice your opinion below. I don't claim that this is a "flawless" solution, so if you have any constructive criticism or ideas on how it might be improved, feel free to discuss it, but please remain civil. I don't want to see this spill over into a flame war of some variety.
Thanks for the support so far, guys. One way or another, I'm glad we're getting our revamp after so long without any attention at all. Let's just do all we can to help the Devs make it as fun and enjoyable to play as possible, for everyone.
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 09-07-2005 11:04 PM
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 09-08-2005 06:45 AM
ObsidianWrath
Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:51 pm
#2
/sign 
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 09-08-2005 06:45 AM
Luxora
Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:12 pm
#3
As usual, your proposed ideas are well thought-out, and well-presented.
Squad Leaders should most definitely have a mod of this fashion in order to distinguish between dabblers and dedicated Masters of a given profession, much akin to Medic/Doctor. While "dabblers" should still be functional (for instance, I myself have only the leftmost path in Doctor, and while I can heal myself adequately, it is by no means on par with what a MDoc can do, and they alone can rez players.) MSL's should be held in similar regard and have a sense of superiority, to prevent this profession from simple becoming "something else people dabble in to make themselves a better PvPer." The idea behind Squad Leader is that of a support role, for a group, not as an uber individual.
I definitely like the mention of how there should be a limit to how many Squad Leaders can be grouped (A squad full of Squad Leaders makes no sense, and given the numbers I've seen coming out of TC, would be overpowered.) but that you allow for multiples, because indeed there may come a day when there's not enough groups to go around, and SL's shouldn't be shunned just because there's too many of them, and no SL-less groups in need of one. This solves two problems at once, and prevents SL buff stacking in an extreme manner.
While I myself am not and have never been a Squad Leader, I wanted to come on over and give you guys my support, and best of luck... This seems like a very logical post with a solution to many people's concerns given your upcoming revamp, and would be a simple way to fix many issues and reimplement something once-forgotten and useless, that Leadership mod.
May you be given abetter revamp than that which Creature Handlers weregiven (see sig for reference. I eventually couldn't take it anymore and left the ranks of my taming brethren, since the Pub22 upgrade changed almost nothing about CH effectiveness in combat.)
I hope you make it out of the "Broken Profession gimpbox" and into something functional and fun. 
/sign
HarlequinMK19
Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:34 pm
#4
/sign
I will refrain (for now) from making in-depth comments, as I'm not a Squad Leader, nor have I ever been one, nor will I ever be one. However, for the sake of balance, I feel thatsomething like this needs to be done. I've been watching the boards with regards to the new SL stuff, and let me say...I'm scared. I already see full groups of TKM/Swords/Doc/SL-Dabblers running around...not to mention ranged variants of the same thing.
In short, I don't want to see Squad Leader gimped, as it has been since it's inception. However, on the same note, I do not want to see it "reduced" to the level of... a little dabbling = a lot of uberness.
The very title of the profession includes "Leader". Not everyone is a leader...and not everyone should be a leader because not everyone is cut out to be one. The profession, I feel, should reflect this, as I think people who are natural leaders will flock to the profession, even if they are sacrificing alot to do so. Should dabbling be allowed? Absolutely. However, I don't want to see these potentially great abilities become game breaking.
ObsidianWrath
Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:47 am
#5
Scout:
There we go, regarding the post title. 
I'll see about dropping a copy over in the other focus threads and such as soon as I get home.
I'll see about dropping a copy over in the other focus threads and such as soon as I get home.And yeah, that variety of suggestion could be quite interesting, with each different field effecting different "attributes" of the buffs such as range, potency, duration, and what have you. Quite interesting, indeed.
Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 09-08-2005 06:47 AM
JiGGa-FeTT
Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:00 am
#6
/sign 
Very well thought out can't see any reason why this wouldn't work
Sylow
Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:51 am
#7
I personally /sign at the version where every box simply as a +xy on leadership.
The second version, while perhaps being nice with the modifications _Scout_ proposes, somehow sounds somewhat counterproductive to me. I admit that i haven't calculated it through yet, but i just "feel" like the first solution of yours is the perfect way to go for the buff system.
I still support the idea of limiting charge, retreat, verbal assault, combat feint, called shot, paint target and rally point to the group leader position. But this is just a minor enhancement, the proposed system here is what we really need.
BlueGlowy
Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:57 am
#8
Only thing I'd tweak are the skill mod numbers themselves such that at Master, they total up to 100 points (as in most other professions). This opens the door for the same +25 point limit on Leadership SEAs making an impact in this profession, like it does in others. It also provides Human characters (+10) with a nice bonus that's worth something. Aside from this detail, it's an exciting proposal.
As to which version of the tables , I'm not sure. Perhaps the first because the net result is the same as in the second table, but looks simpler to me, so I'd assume it would be simpler to implement.
Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 09:06 AM
Sylow
Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:18 am
#9
I would say, going over 100 of a total is intended. Ending at 100 humans get a massive 10% bonus. Considering that all races should be effective in all professions and racial traits should have very little influence on the efficiency of your profession, this definitely is too much. The given numbers in the example are much closer to what i would like to see.
BlueGlowy
Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:09 am
#10
Every other racial bonusfor skills falls between 5% and 15%, so I didn't see this as out of line at all.I saw it as middle-of-the-road, actually. Further, it brings SL SEAs(if any) in line with all the otherSEAs, which I would assume eases the development burden and possibly making it more likely that this proposal goes through to production.
"Considering that all races should be effective in all professions and racial traits should have very little influence on the efficiency of your profession,"
I won't argue for or against racial equality. I will just point out that in SWGthis is exactly *not* how it is across the set of professions where racial bonuses are applicable. These professions include not just crafting professions where certain races get 'free' additional experiment points right at the Novice level, but also includecore elite combat professions such as Fencer or Teras Kasi (and some non-core combat professions, such as Creature Handler). There's a reason you see a majority of Twi-chick entertainers...and it's not just because they look good in fleshwrap.
Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 10:24 AM
Nocifer
Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:42 am
#11
/signed... I love your idea as usual! Devs should listen to you and other VETERAN MSLs' proposals. Screw those newcoming SLs. I don't have any good ideas simply cuz I'm just new and inexperienced But your idea is what I was hoping to see SL to become what I had envisioned SL to be.
As LAST resort based on current TC that I noticed about called shot that is basically a modifier on every skill box. If Devs won't change called shot mods and will not add leadership and other modifiers that you mentioned abovethen human leadership +10 should be converted to called shot +10 so the human trait can become useful once again than keeping leadership inert forever..
BadChef
Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:09 am
#12
Newcomming SL's will be SL's none the less, agree or disagree, their opinions matter. This proposal to me includes very well all sides, as in it doesnt realy take a side. Atleast the bulk of it needs to be considered by the devs for balancing reasons alone since it sort of sums upmost of our concerns and feedback. What realy interested me was the possibility of a comeback for actual SL xp, think we all had our fill of pistols by now and they're dead on that the new structure almost begs to have it in place again. Since those grinding out SL wont have to be the group leader, they could spend their time useing squad leader abilities and learning their profession along the way to master instead of trying to keep up with all the heavy hitterstakeing pot shots with cheap pistols.
The other thing that I'm hanging on is the possibility of new SEA's or converting current ones to apply. I can wear all the clothes and armor I can fit but somehow I still feel naked since I'm pretty much built for support and most of my food/drinks I use to keep my action and mind bars up and to make my heals more effective. On a side note, I think we're starting to jell here and it's getting to be more constructive. Hopefully they take a gander this way and towards the tc forum to see what these folks have been comming up with.
LiakyK
Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:21 am
#13
BadChef wrote:
Newcomming SL's will be SL's none the less, agree or disagree, their opinions matter.
I hate people who come to a profession after it has been reworked and hope to dominate with it, that is what most hoping to dablle in SL are hoping for. That is what gets professions nerfed.
Page 1 of 3