Squad Leader Archive

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/signed... I love your idea as usual! Devs should listen to you and other VETERAN MSLs' proposals. Screw those newcoming SLs. I don't have any good ideas simply cuz I'm just new and inexperienced But your idea is what I was hoping to see SL to become what I had envisioned SL to be.

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Hmm, i guess you're kinda ironic? If you say this in a seriour tone then i dare to correct you with right the starting post of this thread. I mean, oki, ObsidianWrath has a registration date from a bit before me, she also mentioned that she played the SL before the revamp was announced.

But, honestly, registration date alone means little, and if i wanted, i could claim to have played a mandalorian in beta-testing... (slightly overexagerated, i admit.) i don't give much to those claims.Ibelieve that ObsidianWrath told the truth, but if she did or not doesn't matter to me at all. Additionally, if you take a look on her post count(and all what she posted) you will find outthat she was not a frequent guest of this forum (at least not as a poster) before the revamp was announced, so she surely can't build on some mysterious veteran-bonus, either.

What matters to me (and apparently many others of the old SLs)is that she made a great suggestion. Without moaning or bitching around, she got into the conversations, asked a bit around, listened, and then delivered a concept which is superior to any other concept we were able to deliver up to now. (There were some other good concepts around, several of them being very sweet... but unlike this concept here, they at the same time would have been very complicated to implement. The one proposed here is not only great by itself, but should also be comparatively easy to implement.)

And i dare to say, seeing how many of the other (old) SLs also complement this great idea, that we're not deciding upon age and reputation, former presence in the forum or anything like that. We might set somewhat different priorities when judging new suggestions, but we still evaluate the suggestions and rate them according to how beneficial they would be according to our view of the future of the profession.

So, if anybody else is able to present a concept of equal quality (or what he thinks that it could be of equal quality) as the one of ObsidianWrath, please write it down. The only thing is, if we dismiss it due to finding some flaws in it, please accept that it's not good within the scale of our judgement (although i admit, even we can be wrong, it's just very unlikely... *grin* )and don't start to insult people around. We had enough of that during the last week.

[Edit: Heck... after reading this thing again and considering how much i compliment you... ObsidianWrath, do you want to marry me? ]

Message Edited by Sylow on 09-08-2005 05:31 PM

I vote against a "chance to stick". If you issue a buff to the group, the buff should be there, no random roll or anything. (Reliability is key, especially in dire situations.)

Haven't been paying much attention to the groupleader/squadleader debate nor have I been paying too much attention to the overpowered group stuff. Both issues have concerned me but I'm burned out on worrying about what SOE plans to do until after they do it and then I just adapt to whatever is placed in my lap.

The idea in the first post of this thread is well thought out and I can't see any real problem with it but it does a good job at addressing both sides of the arguments. Sadly that is most likely the main reason this will never see the light of day.

/sign

/salute

Well done indeed

The total possible modifer is +100, dove-tailing nicely with the existing Character Race bonusand SEA model - and being inline with other existing (post-CU, post-revamp) professions.

From the anti-dabbling perspective, an SL with 1 or 2 trees isn't going to be nearly as effective (at best, about half, if we assume the modifiers net impact on a given skill follows alinearprogression).

I happen to like this model myself, for simplicity (likelyhood of being implemented) and that from Novice on, each and every skill box the aspiring SL earns gives ameasurable boost to performance. I dislike feeling completely worthless until I master a given profession, which is possibly why I don't enjoy crafting much anymore).

[I'll edit this with a similar approach using the 2nd table presented in the original post shortly]

[Update: Changed my mind.... applying the 2nd table from the OP, where each tree focuses on an individual type of SL skill will likely add to the concern about 'dabblers' taking just one or two lines, so probably wouldn't carry much weight in these forums.]

Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-08-2005 04:00 PM

i am completely for this concept, however. i am addimently against any newly implemented "race restrictions"

this is a mirror of the recent clone armor issue. it is completely unfair to change the rules of the game to limit characters that cannot change. people who wanted to be squadleaderand sawno alien restrictions and picked ithorian for instance. now months and months later they are fully templated and are enjoying their proffesion, want to stick with SL indeffinately. now soe changes the rules. selective nerf. the only option for this ithorian is to re-roll and regrind his character. that sucks.

just like the clone armor issue. being the only stormie type armor that aliens can wear as an imp, many went out and bought a very expensive surplus of these helmets. then they tried to re implement the race restrictions. that got yanked back in one day. because it was unfair of them to change the rules late in the game like that.

i could care less to see it in the game.

Message Edited by captiansarcasmo on 09-08-2005 09:19 PM

If we use this "adds up to 100" concept, it should not be connected to race, i agree. I know that some races at some time give something like 10%, but consider what they give it to... Camouflage? Cover? Chassis assembly?

I am sorry, the only bonus i see which really affects a profession in a significant manner is artisan experimentation. (Experimentation points are searched for, assembly points are not that much in demand.) And this one is present on the human. Sure, there are some modifiers like melee defence or stun defence, and they influence combat to some degree, but they have not the slightest connection to any profession, so they don't matter on the issue.

With leadership actually playing a role, the human would be the only race to actually have an advantage in not only one, but even two professions. While i don't say that this should be completely forgotten, i say that the bonus has to be very small, not a massive 10%.

make the MSL box givea huge number of points. Keep those dabblers down

/sign

I've been waiting for this thread since you posted in the first In Focus thread .

Some additions:

Range, Duration, Potency/strength and Stacking of the buffs
Each individual skillmod could determine one of the above properties:

• Mobility could determine the range of the buffs
  The buffs of a novice Squad leader only affect ppl in a range of 15m, while the Master would have 90m which he could increase with skill taps (+25max) to the full range of 115 (humans would be able to extend this to 125m).


• Tactics could determine the Strength
  The more points in tactics you have the stronger your buffs are.


• Strategy the duration of the buffs
  The more points in strategy you have the longer they last and the shorter your cooldown is.


• Guidance the stacking of the buffs
  If there is more than one buff active in a group this mod determines how good your and the other squad leader buffs stack. If your buff is the only buff it works at full percentage of the Squad leaders personal skill level (determined by his individual squad leader skill mods). If there is another squad leader buff active in the group your buff drop to (guidance + leadership/2) in precentage (with a hardcap at 100%).
  
  Eg. At master level two master squad leaders could run two buffs at 100% of their individual strength/range/duration. If a master and a novice are in a group the master squad leader would run his buffs 100%, while the novice with eg. 50 points in leadership and 5 points in guidance at 30% ( 5%guidance and 25%from the leadership) of his personal effective level (determined through his other squad leader abilties).
  
  This skill mod also encourages the usage of one buff at a time in the appropriate situations rather than just turning all buffs on all the time as well as it encourages again gain the master box to have access to the most potent buffs.

For this to work you also might have to break down the proposed skill mods per skill box into the specific skill mod and leadership skill mod so that at least +5 leadership is gained per box to not totally cripple the dabbler as well as the squad leader during his progress to his master.

Eg.

Box 4: +05 Leadership, +15 Mobility
Box 3: +05 Leadership, +10 Mobility
Box 2: +05 Leadership, +05 Mobility
Box 1: +05 Mobility

Pls dont forget to drop this in the three different In Focus threads

Tiggs first In Testing Focus thread


Keldarins in testing Focus thread


Tiggs second In focus thread in the in development forum

Though we so far have gather the most information in Tiggs first post I would now focus on Keldarins thread and copy this idea there since he is the Developer, and just link to it form the other threads. Also I would remove the word petition since the DEVs stated once they are allergic to those and wont touch threads with the word petition in their headline.

Again a very well written and outlined contribution
Thx Larrendias du'Noctile-et'Senex !


EDIT:
some correction to the way the guidance and stacking is calculated, to smoothen it out during the progress of the squad leader and to adapt it better the the general leadership skill mod.

this way the leadership tree would give 30 points in guidance as well as 20 leadership + 15 from the novice resulting in 47,5 % percentage effective buffs, when grouped with another SL. All other trees would give at least 17.5% strenght while running multiple buffs encouraging it to take the leadership tree.

Each additional tree would gain another 20 leadership aka another 10% in buff strength while running more buffs at a time so a 4 tree squadleader would run his buffs at 87,5 % strength with the master box bringing it to full 100% due to the 25 leadership in it.

and changed
Box 1: +05 Leaderhip -> Mobility

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Message Edited by _scout_ on 09-08-2005 10:12 AM

Yea, funny how humans get a race mod that doesn't actually work, but gloves and boots have been nerfed and other racial armors added due to those races not having things work fairly to them. Not that I don't believe they deserved it. But I also believe the humans are due what they are supposed to have too. That's why you pick a race, and there are different races. Any table top gamer knows how severe race differences can be. a +10 mod is something to fret about here?

I fully agree with fixing the leadership thing, and I like the ideas posted. I only hope the devs listen to you. Leave the racial bonus argument out of it though. If its fixed, humans should have their due. Sure we can wear any non Wook or Ithorian armor in the game, but now the gloves nor boots provide any protection or socket opportunities. Crafters have a hard time selling them (they never wear out, and if they do who cares? They are pure asthetics.). If its supposed to be a perk of selecting the humans, then let it be a perk. That also means not diluting the ability mod by boosting all the other numbers sufficiently. It should be noticable, just not uber.

I have to admit that I like the idea of adding a +5 Leadership to every SL skill box, and using that as a "Percentage Effectiveness" modifier for all the SL abilities. Not as a chance to "stick", but as a +5 vs +10 bonus.

I would like to see something like +15 or +20 in the MSL box tho, as a reward for mastery. Second Chance just doesn't seem all that "spiffy" of an ability.

Not to add to the discussion of the human racial bonus but something very interesting to read from Jeff Freeman aka Jfreeman's blog:

Why Humans Suck in in RPG

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The racial mod for Humans is not the main focus of this discussion, nor should it be.

When I was an MCH, I never whined even though I knew wookiees were better at it than I and had a modifier. I almost wanted a Zabrak once just for Equilibrium and their other racial mods. While most racial mods are minor and almost negligible, they should still exist. This is not SWG: "Where all races are the same, and different only aesthetically." Star Wars has innumerable different races, and they should be portrayed with different abilities. The only people bringing up this issue are those SL's who did not pick Human, and are having a fit that they may not be as effective as a Human SL. In time, you'll come to realize that racial mods are so negligible that it doesn't matter. I never even noticed the lack of the Wookiee MCH bonuses, nor do I usually notice other races having an obviouslyunfair advantage over my human character. It's simply nitpicking pointlessly.

Back on topic... With whichever format (+5's all the way up a path, or increasing increments, i.e. +5, +10, etc.) both would keep out a dabbler. I personally almost lean toward the +5's all across the board because that definitely does not present an advantage to dabblers, but if they're diehard about wanting a path in SL, they can of course still take it and use the buffs, just not to max effectiveness. It doesn't punish those who dabble, but instead uplifts the Master SL's just a bit more. Which means fun and goodness for everyone.

As far as "veteran SL" crap... People can be from around long before they decided to register on the forums, it really means nothing. And just becauseObsidianWrath lurks and doesn't post frequently and shoot off her mouth without getting the facts first doesn't mean she doesn't know what she's talking about. But the point is, yes, I haven't seen a better idea yet presented so cleanly, with all the reasons defined as to why it should be implemented. If the devs don't listen to something presented in a business-like, linear proposal, what else will they listen to?

I'm still slightly concerned given what I've seen Keldarin say, about how they don't want to set a limit to how many SL's are allowed per group. I understand both sides of the coin there. But I swear to god, the first time I see an 8-man group of all MSL's and/or one or two full-template jedi using these new buffs like that... Sheesh. I mean, it would take a lot of dedicated people who are willing to sit back and simply be support, and most people who play this game don't have that kind of patience, but they might do it just for the uberness. Heck, if I thought I could contribute to a group in an impressively-destructive manner and be able to help someone smite down full-template Rebel Jedi Knight after Jedi Knight, I'd go MSL in a heartbeat just to watch them burn. Hence, this should NOT be overpowered, because the devs would just nerfbat it later on.

The Combat Upgrade changed a large part of the problem,changingComposite that mitigated most of the damage. From what I've heard regarding one SL buff in particular, you can now get a TKM with 70% or higher damage mitigation, and they don't even wear armor. There's something wrong with that picture. Hope that's not truly accurate... because this is precisely what the CU was trying to get away from.

The best solution for the stacking issuewould be to either set a relative limit as per Obsidian's suggestion (3 or so SL's at max) or force the extra buffs to have diminishing returns as per another suggestion, where the group leader's buffs operate at 100% effectiveness, a second SL's buffs operate at (estimated example) -15% effectiveness, then -30%, or whatever... and keep decreasing per SL in the group. So that while you can still stack to some degree, it won't be the horrendously overpowered, new "Flavor of the Month" where every Jedi tries to get their own personal entourage of Squad Leaders to make them uber. You know they'd do it.